31 May 2010, 3:40 am
Sparrowrose wrote:
dyingofpoetry wrote:
It's useless to debate anything. This troll did not come here to debate; he came here to push a belief. That belief is that we have no chance to be successful at anything, and if we are successful then we cannot be autistic.
It is one of the oldest fallacies around: You are either a complete invalid or you are a faker.
I've been harassed enough in my life already. If you want to play mind games with the bully, then fine, go ahead, but please don't take him seriously.
It is one of the oldest fallacies around: You are either a complete invalid or you are a faker.
I've been harassed enough in my life already. If you want to play mind games with the bully, then fine, go ahead, but please don't take him seriously.
I'm feeling more socially clueless than usual because I believe you when you say that he is a troll, but I never would have figured that out on my own and I can't see how you figured it out. This is probably related to what someone was telling me yesterday about how people come into my life and push my buttons and get me all worked up and I never see that they're just playing me like a musical instrument. I hate feeling so socially vulnerable and easily victimized.
That's okay, but according to Tangerine's philosophy, I should not have been able to tell that he was a troll at all, thus I could not have Asperger's.... and if I had less self-confidence than I do, he may have been successful in causing me to doubt myself.
But we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. People on the spectrum are individuals, not diagnoses. We are just different, not sick, like Tangerine wants us to be.
31 May 2010, 4:29 am
31 May 2010, 9:54 am
31 May 2010, 10:13 am
DandelionFireworks wrote:
I am a diagnosed Aspie. I disagree with the premises, though, having never seen Heather Kuzmich, I don't know whether or not the conclusion is correct.
Difficult, yes. That would require her to be mentally present for the entire exchange (possible), detect that the insult was an insult (I don't know what the insult was, but some insults are pretty obvious), recognize that insults are bad (requiring either memorization of a rule, which is easy, or theory of mind, which is present in some individuals) and show the appropriate emotion (many Aspies do show emotion naturally, though some do not; if Heather doesn't, it would also be possible to fake it).
That does not mean she doesn't have Asperger's.
Because there ISN'T ANY. Eyes are little round balls of fluid. NTs pick up on emotional expression in the area around the eyes (the eyebrows, the eyelids, the presence or absence of tears, the orbicularis oculi muscle) and unconsciously think of it as coming from the eyes themselves.
No one I know has ever just, say, memorized enough idioms to understand normal speech.
/sarcasm
They're actually fairly easy to understand if you read them in a story, and if you read enough fiction you'll get a working dictionary to carry over. Best way to learn social skills, because the book will never walk away. Read enough conversations, you start to understand how conversation works. Read enough descriptions of emotion and you pick up on how certain emotions are expressed. ("He furrowed his brow in concentration." "He ground his teeth, seething." "She glared at the impudent wretch." Visual media work better, because although you don't get the verbal descriptions, you get to actually see the expression, and you can watch to see how the person acts. This works better if you've memorized Emotion 101 and know things like "tears mean sadness" and "kissing means love," because in that case you get to see the subtleties and the mixed feelings.)
No argument here, except that there are ways to cope.
So when I sit at a table, stick a fork in my food and bring it to my mouth, I'm doing it very differently from the way you do? Good to know.
Seriously. There will be short scenes of near-normal at the least, because we're all human. Yes, I have Asperger's 24/7, but that isn't the end-all be-all of my identity. Yesterday, I hugged my mother. I looked pretty normal doing it, I bet. (Then I sniffed her hair, and any illusion of normalcy went out the window.) Right now, I'm sitting at a computer typing. I stim occasionally, but since it takes hands to stim and it takes hands to type, I'm forced to choose between them. There are big periods of time (like, a minute or more) in which I don't stim at all, just sit here, look at the screen and type. Any time I stop typing, I start stimming very surreptitiously with the keyboard, but that amounts to a fraction of an inch of movement of my index fingers. Even when I do stim, it often looks like I need to scratch an itch. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I make a typo, too. Then I hit backspace. I'm kind of slouching right now.
Admittedly, I'm sitting cross-legged in a chair, but if you claim that that makes this scene abnormal, you probably won't find very many scenes of "normal" even if you film NTs.
Yeah, there are stims, but to someone who doesn't know what to look for, I probably look itchy or antsy or OCD, when I bother to do them. Otherwise, I'm pretty much typing like anyone else.
There's not one single sentence in the DSM-IV-TR that says "must be utterly unable under any circumstances to..."
You mean shows emotion naturally? Yeah, that's really rare, just like eyerolling. When I first read that I spoke angrily to my computer, explaining that "you're an idiot!" Then in a much calmer tone of voice, I informed the other people in the room that "you're not an idiot."
I had a flat affect most of yesterday. The last time my affect was naturally flat for more than a few minutes at a time was last October.
1. The cues are learnable.
2. Watch what you call effortless. It's easy for you. Maybe she's straining without your knowledge.
1. Not in the diagnostic criteria.
2. Do you know how much effort she's expending to do that?
3. The other day I was watching a friend dance. I didn't know the routine ahead of time. When she broke off from the other dancers and kept on with what she was doing, I didn't realize she'd made a mistake. I didn't know what she meant to do and you don't know how Kurzmich means to sound.
So do I. You can get a dx with overly formal speech, too. As an adult she might well have learned to mask her issues.
Emotion? What is this "emotion" of which you speak? It is a foreign concept to me, beep boop beep.
There are people with CP who can walk, too. (What is it with us and analogies to CP?)
Ummm... yeah. Thanks for finally getting it. That's what we've been trying to say. You know what I have to say to that? Scroll down. Way down.
Quote:
Just something as simple as making eye contact remains something that an Apserger's person has to do consciously. It's a social rule that they're taught to use, and for them it's like someone learning to drive a car - only the various behaviors never become automatic. There'd be no understanding and use of something like an eyeroll.
Quote:
Or the way she automatically reacted on a recent show when someone was insulted and she gasped and covered her mouth with her hand.
Difficult, yes. That would require her to be mentally present for the entire exchange (possible), detect that the insult was an insult (I don't know what the insult was, but some insults are pretty obvious), recognize that insults are bad (requiring either memorization of a rule, which is easy, or theory of mind, which is present in some individuals) and show the appropriate emotion (many Aspies do show emotion naturally, though some do not; if Heather doesn't, it would also be possible to fake it).
That does not mean she doesn't have Asperger's.
Quote:
An Asperger's person wouldn't be noticing and understanding emotional expression in eyes,
Because there ISN'T ANY. Eyes are little round balls of fluid. NTs pick up on emotional expression in the area around the eyes (the eyebrows, the eyelids, the presence or absence of tears, the orbicularis oculi muscle) and unconsciously think of it as coming from the eyes themselves.
Quote:
and would never talk about "dead eyes." People with Asperger's are very concrete. Ask what "two heads are better than one" means and you'll be told that someone with two brains could think twice as much. "Dead eyes" to someone with Asperger's would mean someone went blind because their eyes died.
No one I know has ever just, say, memorized enough idioms to understand normal speech.
/sarcasm
They're actually fairly easy to understand if you read them in a story, and if you read enough fiction you'll get a working dictionary to carry over. Best way to learn social skills, because the book will never walk away. Read enough conversations, you start to understand how conversation works. Read enough descriptions of emotion and you pick up on how certain emotions are expressed. ("He furrowed his brow in concentration." "He ground his teeth, seething." "She glared at the impudent wretch." Visual media work better, because although you don't get the verbal descriptions, you get to actually see the expression, and you can watch to see how the person acts. This works better if you've memorized Emotion 101 and know things like "tears mean sadness" and "kissing means love," because in that case you get to see the subtleties and the mixed feelings.)
Quote:
Then the whole idea of living in a new situation, with a ton of strangers, outside of one's routine (which gets somewhat ritualistic with an Asperger's person) would be a huge trigger for anxiety and complete panic-like meltdowns for someone with Asperger's.
No argument here, except that there are ways to cope.
Quote:
If took every kid in our Asperger's group, or every Asperger's indvidual in our practice, and filmed them all for 24/7 for a week, there'd not be any scenes (outside of sleeping) where viewers would see "normal."
So when I sit at a table, stick a fork in my food and bring it to my mouth, I'm doing it very differently from the way you do? Good to know.
Seriously. There will be short scenes of near-normal at the least, because we're all human. Yes, I have Asperger's 24/7, but that isn't the end-all be-all of my identity. Yesterday, I hugged my mother. I looked pretty normal doing it, I bet. (Then I sniffed her hair, and any illusion of normalcy went out the window.) Right now, I'm sitting at a computer typing. I stim occasionally, but since it takes hands to stim and it takes hands to type, I'm forced to choose between them. There are big periods of time (like, a minute or more) in which I don't stim at all, just sit here, look at the screen and type. Any time I stop typing, I start stimming very surreptitiously with the keyboard, but that amounts to a fraction of an inch of movement of my index fingers. Even when I do stim, it often looks like I need to scratch an itch. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I make a typo, too. Then I hit backspace. I'm kind of slouching right now.
Admittedly, I'm sitting cross-legged in a chair, but if you claim that that makes this scene abnormal, you probably won't find very many scenes of "normal" even if you film NTs.
Yeah, there are stims, but to someone who doesn't know what to look for, I probably look itchy or antsy or OCD, when I bother to do them. Otherwise, I'm pretty much typing like anyone else.
Quote:
But more than that, they can't "edit in" abilities that a person with Asperger's absolutely would not demonstrate.
There's not one single sentence in the DSM-IV-TR that says "must be utterly unable under any circumstances to..."
Quote:
Heather has natural affect.
You mean shows emotion naturally? Yeah, that's really rare, just like eyerolling.
When I first read that I spoke angrily to my computer, explaining that "you're an idiot!" Then in a much calmer tone of voice, I informed the other people in the room that "you're not an idiot."I had a flat affect most of yesterday. The last time my affect was naturally flat for more than a few minutes at a time was last October.
Quote:
Heather understands non-verbals and effortlessly uses them.
1. The cues are learnable.
2. Watch what you call effortless. It's easy for you. Maybe she's straining without your knowledge.
Quote:
Heather has normal voice tone and modulation.
1. Not in the diagnostic criteria.
2. Do you know how much effort she's expending to do that?
3. The other day I was watching a friend dance. I didn't know the routine ahead of time. When she broke off from the other dancers and kept on with what she was doing, I didn't realize she'd made a mistake. I didn't know what she meant to do and you don't know how Kurzmich means to sound.
Quote:
Heather has normal vocal inflection.
So do I. You can get a dx with overly formal speech, too. As an adult she might well have learned to mask her issues.
Quote:
Heather understands emotion,
Emotion? What is this "emotion" of which you speak? It is a foreign concept to me, beep boop beep.
Quote:
can read it in others, and responds to it appropriately.
There are people with CP who can walk, too. (What is it with us and analogies to CP?)
Quote:
All facets of human behavior and fucntioning occur on a continuum. Some people are more one way than others. Difference isn't a disorder. Heather is functioning normally. She's on the show, making friends, living with the other girls, winning competitions, etc. Without impairment, there is no disorder.
Ummm... yeah. Thanks for finally getting it. That's what we've been trying to say. You know what I have to say to that? Scroll down. Way down.
Hi,
I'll be happy to reply to your thoughtful intelligent discussion but only after WP mods ban "dyingofpoetry" for his numerous violations of forum rules including repeated attacks, abusive language, unsupported ad hominen attacks. His comments are inappropriate, unprofessional, and detract and lower the quality of this discussion. I've contacted them and filed a formal complaint against him. I'll wait until I hear from the mods as to what they do with him.
In the meantime, you can watch season 9 ANTM on youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ArfLHLmNUU
31 May 2010, 10:54 am
sartresue
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Age: 69
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,313
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
31 May 2010, 11:52 am
31 May 2010, 2:10 pm
31 May 2010, 2:27 pm
I can see this thread quickly becoming a means for frustration and anger to come into WP. I'd suggest everyone take a time out and think critically about what is going on in this thread, not just the discussion.
31 May 2010, 2:51 pm
31 May 2010, 3:14 pm
Tangerine, I'm flattered that you consider me thoughtful and intelligent 
, but I have to point out that if you refuse to partake in reasoned debate with someone until a third party is banned, you're only depriving yourself of the chance to broaden your own horizons.
I must say that although I don't agree with dyingofpoetry that you're a troll (you act just like I do when I'm clueless), I do think you're having trouble grasping the social dynamics here. (That's to be expected. That's why you're here.) I would love to read your response when you decide to post it. And you know, if you hold yourself hostage like that, you're giving him petty leverage over your soul. Just don't. If you want to respond, do it for yourself, or for me.
dyingofpoetry, you could be right, but I don't suffer at all if I give Tang the benefit of the doubt regardless. It seems unlikely to me, as well. I often get into similar exchanges wherein people think I'm willfully ignorant or trolling-- more often in real life, and when I was new to Teh Intrawebs-- when I'm trying to understand something or have a reasoned debate. And anyway, that's not how you call troll. NEEDS MOAR MACROS. Some scathing wit wouldn't go amiss either. Otherwise, you're stating (what you believe to be) facts. *yawn* If Tang is a troll, at least he's a convincing one.
31 May 2010, 3:41 pm
31 May 2010, 4:00 pm
31 May 2010, 4:29 pm
31 May 2010, 8:27 pm
John_Browning
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,456
Location: The shooting range
01 Jun 2010, 12:43 am
01 Jun 2010, 3:47 am
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