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MrLoony
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21 May 2011, 5:39 pm

YourMother wrote:
Peeled_Lemon wrote:
* a couple in America fed their baby nothing but apple juice. It died.
* a couple in France took their baby to doctors because it was sick. They then ignored the medical advice and bathed it in clay instead. It died.



That is no sort of representation of vegans. Those people are just idiots. The entire vegan "community" condemns them.


SRSLY

However, keep in mind that growing children do need fats (most especially the kinds of fats found in animal products). It's been shown that, without these nutrients, growing children can develop serious issues. Getting these fats outside of animal products tend to require going to obscure food sources. Also, if you are breast feeding or pregnant, this is true as well. The biggest issue is vitamin B12, which is only found naturally in animal sources (meats, dairy, and eggs, so the latter two is good for vegetarians... just eat/drink a whole lot of dairy and eggs).

aghogday wrote:
I don't doubt that some geographical areas are comprised of people that have adapted more toward the ability to tolerate a vegetarian diet and vice/versa. Maybe someone should do a study on the proportionate size of their canine teeth, testosterone, and agression. I wonder if there is a correlation.


You know, there are certain fats that are found mostly in animal products. The fats that are interesting in this case are the ones that can be synthesized by some groups of people (from other fats), but other people have to get them in their food. This is also true of a couple amino acids.


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RedHanrahan
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21 May 2011, 5:49 pm

Peeled_Lemon wrote:
I just got to this discussion. I only got to page two before being confused. Twisted Evil makes some rude comments. Redhanrahan pulls him up on this, but then feels that it's okay to threaten violence in exchange for rudeness:

"I am generally a low key and quite tolerant person but speak of or to me in public in this manner - then you will find me pretty damn intolerant and even violent - play nice Twisted Evil"

So vegans will not hurt animals. Indeed, some vegans will even let their babies starve because they think breastfeeding* and modern day medicine* are wrong, but apparently it's okay for vegans to hit people simply because of the words that come out of their mouths.

I eat animals because I enjoy the taste of their charred flesh and I hope the animals I eat enjoyed their lives. I do not hit people who disagree with me or stoop to name calling. If someone did hit me, I would call the police and have them arrested for assault. I hope that's cleared up that little moral issue.

* a couple in America fed their baby nothing but apple juice. It died.
* a couple in France took their baby to doctors because it was sick. They then ignored the medical advice and bathed it in clay instead. It died.


Did you read on and see the total body of my posts? perhaps not, did I ever say 'killing animals is wrong? no.
You eat meat but obviously know nothing of the means of production otherwise you couldn't possibly believe the animals enjoyed their lives.
Lastly don't pass judgement on all vegetarians or vegans based on one person that ofended you or even several, Hitler was a vegetarian. Applying your rationale I would right off all omnivores based on tuna's abuse.
As for my implied threat, I was attempting to get the point accross [however clumsily] that I am tired of weasels who make comments behind the safety of their computer they would never dare to make to my face

My entire statement in context rather than a selective quote.

RedHanrahan wrote:
tuna wrote:
Because vegans are generally pretentious, privileged, self-important assholes.


Wow, you say it super judgemental person! lucky you can hide from people behind your keyboard and monitor while you make these statements or you might get flattened!
I am a fairly ecconomically poor working class conservative living in a state owned flat, I am generally a low key and quite tolerant person but speak of or to me in public in this manner - then you will find me pretty damn intolerant and even violent - play nice :twisted:

I have been a vegetarian for over 25 years and have kept a vegan kitchen for about 20 years, I find it easy and generally cheaper as well as suiting my ambitions with regard ethics and ecology.

The only reason I am not a strict 'vegan' is because I dumpster dive and as I am making good use of what would otherwise be wasted and not driving demand I set the limit to my palate which is vegetarian.

peace j


Now this selective quoting that is so common here is something tiresome as it often takes the selected piece and uses it without context, often biasing interpretation, at best juvenile and at worst deceptive.

peace j


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Last edited by RedHanrahan on 21 May 2011, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrLoony
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21 May 2011, 6:08 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
You eat meat but obviously know nothing of the means of production otherwise you couldn't possibly believe the animals enjoyed their lives.


Factory farming is not the only means of obtaining meat. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not it's better to have meat cows live semi-wild lives or whether farms can really provide a good quality of life for them (NOT factory farms, mind you).

Factory farming is not just bad for the animal, but bad for the people eating its meat (or, in the case of cows, milk) as well.

I also blame factory farming for high levels of salmonella in eggs. That's right: No more egg nog for you because of factory farming.

We can raise animals without factory farming (plenty do).


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RedHanrahan
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21 May 2011, 6:18 pm

MrLoony wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
You eat meat but obviously know nothing of the means of production otherwise you couldn't possibly believe the animals enjoyed their lives.


Factory farming is not the only means of obtaining meat. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not it's better to have meat cows live semi-wild lives or whether farms can really provide a good quality of life for them (NOT factory farms, mind you).

Factory farming is not just bad for the animal, but bad for the people eating its meat (or, in the case of cows, milk) as well.

I also blame factory farming for high levels of salmonella in eggs. That's right: No more egg nog for you because of factory farming.

We can raise animals without factory farming (plenty do).


Have you observed my location? I live in a farming nation, all modern farms be they feedlot or 'free range' [sic] are 'factory farming'. As most people do not hunt to source feral meat as sole source I gambled on the assumption that the posters sources for animal products was in all likelyhood the local store or supermarket.
I feel quite confident as someone who has had a lot of contact with farmed animals in saying that they don't appear to be enjoying it, in fact their behaviours and demeanor imply the opposite.

peace j


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Dantac
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21 May 2011, 7:50 pm

unfortunately factory farming is the only way the current human population can be fed. Free range requires a lot of fertile land to be wasted giving the animals space to roam. I dont agree with it but thats the cold reality.

There is however hope that will change. The current research being done on tissue engineering and 3D tissue printers that has already made artificial organs viable (but not yet completely safe for implanting) will also make animal husbandry obsolete.

http://www.nextnature.net/2010/01/3d-bi ... on-demand/

:)



littlelily613
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21 May 2011, 8:45 pm

I was easily vegetarian (lacto-ovo) for about 5 years. I was vegan for a few months. Right now I am neither. I would LOVE to be vegan, but it is very hard for me. In fact, even lacto-ovo vegetarianism is difficult at the moment. My reasons are: I live at home and my parents buy and cook the food. There is no vegetarian option and certainly no vegan option. I am very much in debt right now due to my enormous student loans (and I work less than 10 hours a week), I simply cannot afford groceries. If I lived on my own, I would probably have to resort to using the campus food bank, and I know that wouldn't be vegetarian/vegan either. Someday I would love to be vegetarian (hopefully even vegan), but it is just not feasible at this point in time.



MyWorld
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21 May 2011, 8:51 pm

Who can deny those tasty cute animals? Sorry, I'm hell am not giving up meat.



nodice1996
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21 May 2011, 9:38 pm

Why do I not go vegan? Because as a human I have evolved to be an omnivore and eat meat in combination with vegetables.


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MrLoony
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21 May 2011, 10:04 pm

Dantac wrote:
unfortunately factory farming is the only way the current human population can be fed. Free range requires a lot of fertile land to be wasted giving the animals space to roam. I dont agree with it but thats the cold reality.

There is however hope that will change. The current research being done on tissue engineering and 3D tissue printers that has already made artificial organs viable (but not yet completely safe for implanting) will also make animal husbandry obsolete.


I worry about this being along the lines of genetically modified plants.

I think that people will buy factory farmed products, but that's no reason that you have to. That's also no reason to assume that the population of Earth won't go down (I think that China's one child policy is going to spread, first to countries that are severely overcrowded, such as India and Japan, and then on to countries like the US, aside from people that choose not to have kids). I also won't go into the increase in fertile land...

nodice1996 wrote:
Because meat just tastes so much meatier than vegetables. When they can make vegetables that taste like, look like, and have the texture of meat I will go vegetarian. When they also make soy(or fake) milk that tastes like milk, margarine that tastes like butter, and and egg-less eggs I will go vegan.


First of all: Margarine is incredibly unhealthy, so you want to stay away from that anyway. Secondly: Have you tried seitan? I could never make any that tasted decent, but some people claim that they can make vegan seitan that tastes just like meat.


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Dantac
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21 May 2011, 10:19 pm

MrLoony wrote:
I worry about this being along the lines of genetically modified plants.


Thats a different process though. The meat that is being grown is not modified in the genetic level.. all they're doing is having the tissue grow in an artificial 'womb' type of thing.. or in the 3D printer case, have the cells reproduce in a soup like container and then the printer assembles it into a tissue.

Quote:
I think that people will buy factory farmed products, but that's no reason that you have to. That's also no reason to assume that the population of Earth won't go down (I think that China's one child policy is going to spread, first to countries that are severely overcrowded, such as India and Japan, and then on to countries like the US, aside from people that choose not to have kids). I also won't go into the increase in fertile land...


All the industrialized western nations already are in negative population growth. Its the developing nations that have high birth rates. To sustain the current numbers you need a 2.0 birth rate. China cut itself to 1.0 with some really bad cultural consequences (preference for males causing high disparity in the male/female ratio)... industrialized or 1st world nations (aka EU/US+Canada, AUS+NZ, Japan & S.Korea) have a ratio of 1.6 to 1.8 while developing nations tend to have a 3.0~8.0 ratio. In fact the developed nations now rely on immigration to sustain their population and thus, their economic engine.

nodice1996 wrote:
Because meat just tastes so much meatier than vegetables. When they can make vegetables that taste like, look like, and have the texture of meat I will go vegetarian. When they also make soy(or fake) milk that tastes like milk, margarine that tastes like butter, and and egg-less eggs I will go vegan.

*******
MrLoony wrote:
Secondly: Have you tried seitan? I could never make any that tasted decent, but some people claim that they can make vegan seitan that tastes just like meat.


I once had chicken drumsticks made from soy. I couldnt tell the difference in the first 2 that I ate. However on my 3rd my taste buds caught on...something was WEIRD about this bird. I was told it was soy fake meat.. thought to myself: great! I can eat a lot more and not feel bad... so I did! On my 5th (they were small drumsticks) I started to feel a bit sick... like when you eat too much cereal or oatmeal type of sick. Guess the stuff didnt digest as well as meat and was starting to offset my innards.



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22 May 2011, 12:50 am

Dantac wrote:
I once had chicken drumsticks made from soy. I couldnt tell the difference in the first 2 that I ate. However on my 3rd my taste buds caught on...something was WEIRD about this bird. I was told it was soy fake meat.. thought to myself: great! I can eat a lot more and not feel bad... so I did! On my 5th (they were small drumsticks) I started to feel a bit sick... like when you eat too much cereal or oatmeal type of sick. Guess the stuff didnt digest as well as meat and was starting to offset my innards.


I stay away from soy for two reasons:

1. It screws with your hormones
2. I have a sensitivity to MSG that gives me horribly headaches. Soy is processed with a chemical that is similar enough to MSG that the body cannot tell the difference. I can generally tell when something I'm eating has MSG or soy in it because I'll get a massive headache that doesn't go away for hours.

Oh, by the way, one more thing that I just realized I forgot to point out (because I brought it up elsewhere):

ValentineWiggin wrote:
on nutrition which are not based on total ignorance of...well...nutrition, and the fact no nutrient is unobtainable on a vegan diet


Arachidonic acid

And no, sources of linoleic acid don't count.

Edit: On the health benefits of being thin:

http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/200 ... t-two.html


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Peeled_Lemon
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22 May 2011, 5:07 am

"As for my implied threat, I was attempting to get the point accross [however clumsily] that I am tired of weasels who make comments behind the safety of their computer they would never dare to make to my face"

Actually, I would accuse you of hypocrisy to your face. It is never okay to threaten violence simply because another person exercises their right to free speech.

"Lastly don't pass judgement on all vegetarians or vegans based on one person that ofended you or even several,"

If I did, I would lose a lot of friends today. You called me a weasel simply because I pointed out the hypocrisy of your words. If I thought every vegetarian was like you, I wouldn't want to continue my acquaintance with several vegetarians I know.

"You eat meat but obviously know nothing of the means of production otherwise you couldn't possibly believe the animals enjoyed their lives."

I'm curious, you don't like other people making comments or assumptions about you from behind the safety of their computer, but you think it's okay to make assumptions about my world knowledge from behind the safety of yours?

So far, you've:
- threatened violence.
- resorted to name-calling.
- made assumptions about other people's intelligence.

If I did judge all vegans based on one person, I'm afraid my conclusions about them wouldn't be very positive. Fortunately, I'm willing to judge people based on more substantial evidence about them than their diet.

Anyway, I've answered the OP's question so I'm done here now. Enjoy your day.



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22 May 2011, 9:58 am

YourMother wrote:
Peeled_Lemon wrote:
* a couple in America fed their baby nothing but apple juice. It died.
* a couple in France took their baby to doctors because it was sick. They then ignored the medical advice and bathed it in clay instead. It died.



That is no sort of representation of vegans. Those people are just idiots. The entire vegan "community" condemns them.



Thousands of children of omnivorous parents die due to dietary-related causes in the West annually.

A child of vegan parents does the same,
and it's worldwide news


:roll:



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22 May 2011, 10:03 am

Reason why I'm not vegan:

My body was created with the ability to process both meat and plant material. I like how both taste and feel after consumption.

Plus I really don't care about what I eat so long as it's mostly natural food.



ValentineWiggin
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22 May 2011, 10:04 am

What's funny about all that bunk is that an even elementary understanding of human anatomy reveals we are far more like natural herbivores than natural meat-eaters, from intestinal tract length to stomach acidity, from jaw structure to those supposed razor-sharp meat-eating teeth. It is certainly-evident (at least in the opinion of the nutritional field) that we are nutritionally not obligate meat-eaters, but rather obligate herbivores who are capable of digesting meat (more or less).

Ability to digest a substance is not en ethical or environmental justification for any one part or the totality of the process funded and institutionalized when someone makes the choice to consume it.



Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 22 May 2011, 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jonsi
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22 May 2011, 10:06 am

I guess I really just don't care then.