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ValentineWiggin
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22 May 2011, 10:08 am

Jonsi wrote:
I guess I really just don't care then.


It would be wise not to pour antifreeze into the stream from which you must drink,
though at this rate of indifferent willful ignorance, most will be in the latter stages of kidney failure before they realize such was profoundly stupid on their part.



Jonsi
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22 May 2011, 10:10 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Jonsi wrote:
I guess I really just don't care then.


It would be wise not to pour antifreeze into the stream from which you must drink,
though at this rate of indifferent willful ignorance, most will be in the latter stages of kidney failure before they realize such was profoundly stupid on their part.

I just don't drink antifreeze. It's very unnatural.

I know I made a stupid you know, I'm just trying to lighten things up a bit. D:



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22 May 2011, 10:15 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
What's funny about all that bunk is that an even elementary understanding of human anatomy reveals we are far more like natural herbivores than natural meat-eaters, from intestinal tract length to stomach acidity, from jaw structure to those supposed razor-sharp meat-eating teeth. It is certainly-evident (at least in the opinion of the nutritional field) that we are nutritionally not obligate meat-eaters, but rather obligate herbivores who are capable of digesting meat (more or less).

Ability to digest a substance is not en ethical or environmental justification for any one part or the totality of the process funded and institutionalized when someone makes the choice to consume it.


Carnivore =/= omnivore. (Edit: Also note that our stomachs lack certain bacteria necessary for herbivore survival) Actually, our anatomy is compared most often to pigs, which are omnivores.

And, no. The idea that we evolved as herbivores is nonsensical to anyone that's studied nutrition. B12, as well as some fatty acids (most notably arachidonic acid) are necessary to proper brain function and cannot be found in plants.


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Last edited by MrLoony on 22 May 2011, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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22 May 2011, 10:15 am

I'm nearly vegan now.
The reason that I'm not completely so is that I also live with my son and his mother, and they don't take too well to a vegan diet. So I end up eating some dairy and every once in a while some meat.
My dietary choices are entirely health and wellness based. I have no ethical objections to eating animals. I just feel better when I eat fruits and vegetables and simple grains.


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22 May 2011, 10:27 am

Acacia wrote:
My dietary choices are entirely health and wellness based. I have no ethical objections to eating animals. I just feel better when I eat fruits and vegetables and simple grains.


Feeling better does not mean actually being healthier. Nor is it necessary the lack of meat that is causing this. I'll explain:

1. When you were eating meat, you were getting a lot of calories from the meat, and less from vegetables. As I've pointed out before, omnivore =/= carnivore. We do need vegetables, and nutrients in them. In a vegan diet, you're eating things you should (and CAN) eat as an omnivore (but likely did not). (Edit: By the way, consider what you eat now compared to what you ate when you were on an omnivorous diet. What are you eating now that you didn't eat before [aside from meat replacements]?)
2. Meats (especially beef) often contain growth hormones. These are not healthy for consumption. It has been suggested (many times over by people who actually study this stuff for a living) that many of the health problems associated with things like beef and milk actually comes from the growth hormones that are given to cattle. Not all farmers use this. Those that don't tend to advertise that they don't. (Edit2: This also applies to things like nitrates in pre-packaged bacon. Basically, additives in meat cause problems, not the meat itself)
3. Vegetable oils can cause serious health problems. Animal products (and foods eaten with animal products) are often cooked in oil (as an example, my mother uses canola oil whenever she cooks meat in a pan so that the meat won't stick). Instead of cutting out animal products, consider cutting out vegetable oil.
4. Aside from this, B12 deficiency is present in 50% of vegans, and even more will develop a B12 deficiency if continuing on a vegan diet. Furthermore, I've already mentioned arachidonic acid, which is extremely important in the functions of the brain and can only be found in animal sources
5. A lot of people comment on how much energy they have on vegan diets (and present this as evidence that they're healthier). This isn't because they're healthier, though. In a vegan diet, more energy comes from carbs and less from fats and proteins. Fats and proteins are necessary to the function of the body (hence essential fatty acids and essential amino acids), whereas carbs give energy (yes, this is a simplification).


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Last edited by MrLoony on 22 May 2011, 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

ValentineWiggin
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22 May 2011, 10:32 am

MrLoony wrote:
Carnivore =/= omnivore.

No one claimed this.
MrLoony wrote:
(Edit: Also note that our stomachs lack certain bacteria necessary for herbivore survival)

Oh noes! ~dashes off to tell the vegetarians around the world that they're s'posed to be dead~
MrLoony wrote:
Actually, our anatomy is compared most often to pigs, which are omnivores.

You DO know that the vast majority of their diet is foraged plants, and what very little "animal" protein they eat is grubs and insects, not chickens, cows, and pigs, right?
MrLoony wrote:
And, no. The idea that we evolved as herbivores is nonsensical to anyone that's studied nutrition.

I don't remember claiming we evolved as herbivores- we ARE obligate herbivores nutritionally who evolved omnivorous capabilities,
the latter being an extremely recent development evolutionarily, considering Australopithecus afarensis lacks even the dull "meat-shearing" (~cough~) teeth we have.
MrLoony wrote:
B12, as well as some fatty acids (most notably arachidonic acid) are necessary to proper brain function and cannot be found in plants.

Very few people eat a raw diet of any kind, so it's intellectually disingenuous to claim a nutrient must be "found in" this-or-that food group versus obtained through already-fortified foods products quite commonly-consumed.



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22 May 2011, 10:46 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
B12, as well as some fatty acids (most notably arachidonic acid) are necessary to proper brain function and cannot be found in plants.

Very few people eat a raw diet of any kind, so it's intellectually disingenuous to claim a nutrient must be "found in" this-or-that food group versus obtained through already-fortified foods products quite commonly-consumed.


So, tell me, where do you get your arachidonic acid? And, if B12 is so available to vegans, why do most vegans develop B12 deficiencies?


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ValentineWiggin
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22 May 2011, 10:47 am

MrLoony wrote:

1. When you were eating meat, you were getting a lot of calories from the meat, and less from vegetables. As I've pointed out before, omnivore =/= carnivore. We do need vegetables, and nutrients in them. In a vegan diet, you're eating things you should (and CAN) eat as an omnivore (but likely did not).

It's the rare omnivore who doesn't regularly eat a single food not composed of animal protein...or at least, the dead one.

MrLoony wrote:
(Edit: By the way, consider what you eat now compared to what you ate when you were on an omnivorous diet. What are you eating now that you didn't eat before [aside from meat replacements]?)

What makes you think a plant based diet is synonymous with eating meat "replacements"-
many who follow it are absolutely nauseated by anything resembling meat.


MrLoony wrote:
Aside from this, B12 deficiency is present in 50% of vegans, and even more will develop a B12 deficiency if continuing on a vegan diet.

Most omnivores are nutritionally-deficient in the West despite an over abundance and comparable affordability of fat, sugar, and calorie-dense foods. That says nothing of the inherent health of either diet, now does it?

MrLoony wrote:

Furthermore, I've already mentioned arachidonic acid, which is extremely important in the functions of the brain

Nope. It's only required if there's a LENOLEIC acid deficiency, or an inability to convert the latter into the former.
MrLoony wrote:

and can only be found in animal sources

That's quite simply a lie. It's long been found in many fungi-based nutritional yeasts.
MrLoony wrote:

A lot of people comment on how much energy they have on vegan diets (and present this as evidence that they're healthier). This isn't because they're healthier, though. In a vegan diet, more energy comes from carbs and less from fats and proteins.

No. Only if someone so-chooses.



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22 May 2011, 10:53 am

MrLoony wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
B12, as well as some fatty acids (most notably arachidonic acid) are necessary to proper brain function and cannot be found in plants.

Very few people eat a raw diet of any kind, so it's intellectually disingenuous to claim a nutrient must be "found in" this-or-that food group versus obtained through already-fortified foods products quite commonly-consumed.


So, tell me, where do you get your arachidonic acid? And, if B12 is so available to vegans, why do most vegans develop B12 deficiencies?


I don't have any disorders whereby Linoleic acid is not sufficiently-converted.

Some vegans develop B12 deficiencies for the same reason millions of omnivores and their SAD (Standard American Diet) are sorely-lacking in fiber, B vitamins, E vitamins, Vitamin K, and phytochemicals-
they don't care enough about nutrition to be informed of it.

You're really not very good at this whole isolating variables thing, are you?



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22 May 2011, 10:56 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Aside from this, B12 deficiency is present in 50% of vegans, and even more will develop a B12 deficiency if continuing on a vegan diet.

Most omnivores are nutritionally-deficient in the West despite an over abundance and comparable affordability of fat, sugar, and calorie-dense foods. That says nothing of the inherent health of either diet, now does it?

MrLoony wrote:

Furthermore, I've already mentioned arachidonic acid, which is extremely important in the functions of the brain

Nope. It's only required if there's a LENOLEIC acid deficiency, or an inability to convert the latter into the former.
MrLoony wrote:

and can only be found in animal sources

That's quite simply a lie. It's long been found in many fungi-based nutritional yeasts.


1. B12 deficiency is found in very few omnivores relative to vegans. I believe the percentages is 10% vs. 50%. (Edit4: My apologies, it's actually 5% in omnivores vs. 92% in vegans: http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/ ... deficiency )
2. An inability to convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid is actually rather common (and is not considered a disorder, it's more along the lines of a difference in eye color), and linoleic acid can only be converted into arachidonic acid very inefficiently. Even if you can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid, this is meant to be as a backup plan in case your body can't get arachidonic acid. (Edit3: Hey, just for fun, what source do you have that shows that your body can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid [and other fatty acids important to brain function that are only found in meat]? Did you doctor ever run a test on that?)
3. I'm guessing your source is a site dedicated to turning people vegan? Actually, the studies that this originates with involve adding arachidonic acid into yeast.

Edit: By the way, I notice that you never reply to my posts unless you can intentionally misconstrue what I'm saying or apply vegan propaganda to it.

Edit2: One more thing: I notice that you never actually cite sources. All you do is spout vegan propaganda. And, in case you're wondering where my sources are, I've already cited them, but for some reason, I have to repeat the things the sources said.


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Last edited by MrLoony on 22 May 2011, 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dantac
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22 May 2011, 11:36 am

The ideal omnivore diet has a small percentage of it being meat. We dont really need the excessive amounts the modern diet supplies us with.

10% meats
50% veggies+fruits
40% grains (breads,fiber,etc)

Omnivores are as previously said by another poster, essentially herbivores with a dash of carnivore in them.


You could also replace meats with insects since they provide a lot of protein.

http://www.thinkgeek.com/caffeine/wacky-edibles/e1bc/

I used to eat these as treats back in Colombia when I was a kid. Taste is like a beef steak being cooked on the BBQ that is just starting to get blackened by the coals. Eating 2 or 3 of them is the equivalent of eating a 150g / 5oz piece of beef. :)



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22 May 2011, 11:41 am

More fun: The conversion of ALA into other fatty acids sucks:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9637947
http://www.dhaomega3.org/Overview/Conve ... -in-Humans

Dantac: What sort of percentages are you using? Volume? Even using a very conservative estimates (which has been shown in computer models to be fairly inadequate), 35% of our calories should come from meat.

Edit: Also, keep in mind with insects that they contain a lot of protein, but little fat.

Actually, though, I've read a number of articles that argue that insects (especially worms!) can be used to help against world hunger. You can actually breed worms in the middle of a city (for example, on top of an apartment building), which is a major advantage.

Edit2: Something else I noticed about these pro-vegan nutritional arguments: A lot of them seem to focus on whether or not the nutrients can be found at all in vegan diets without considering whether or not it can be found in sufficient amounts. Deficiencies mean that you aren't getting enough, not that you're getting none at all.

Edit3:

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Actually, our anatomy is compared most often to pigs, which are omnivores.

You DO know that the vast majority of their diet is foraged plants, and what very little "animal" protein they eat is grubs and insects, not chickens, cows, and pigs, right?


http://www.suwanneeriverranch.com/wild- ... dators.htm

Also note that, just because our digestive tract is more similar to pigs than to other animals does not mean that our diets should be exactly the same. True omnivores are relatively rare, so it's much more difficult to find an accurate comparison.


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22 May 2011, 3:42 pm

Dantac wrote:
unfortunately factory farming is the only way the current human population can be fed. Free range requires a lot of fertile land to be wasted giving the animals space to roam. I dont agree with it but thats the cold reality.

There is however hope that will change. The current research being done on tissue engineering and 3D tissue printers that has already made artificial organs viable (but not yet completely safe for implanting) will also make animal husbandry obsolete.

http://www.nextnature.net/2010/01/3d-bi ... on-demand/

:)


Good luck with all that, it's enough to make me totally happy as a freegan/vegan :wink:

peace j


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22 May 2011, 3:57 pm

Peeled_Lemon wrote:
"As for my implied threat, I was attempting to get the point accross [however clumsily] that I am tired of weasels who make comments behind the safety of their computer they would never dare to make to my face"

Actually, I would accuse you of hypocrisy to your face. It is never okay to threaten violence simply because another person exercises their right to free speech.

"Lastly don't pass judgement on all vegetarians or vegans based on one person that ofended you or even several,"

If I did, I would lose a lot of friends today. You called me a weasel simply because I pointed out the hypocrisy of your words. If I thought every vegetarian was like you, I wouldn't want to continue my acquaintance with several vegetarians I know.

"You eat meat but obviously know nothing of the means of production otherwise you couldn't possibly believe the animals enjoyed their lives."

I'm curious, you don't like other people making comments or assumptions about you from behind the safety of their computer, but you think it's okay to make assumptions about my world knowledge from behind the safety of yours?

So far, you've:
- threatened violence.
- resorted to name-calling.
- made assumptions about other people's intelligence.

If I did judge all vegans based on one person, I'm afraid my conclusions about them wouldn't be very positive. Fortunately, I'm willing to judge people based on more substantial evidence about them than their diet.

Anyway, I've answered the OP's question so I'm done here now. Enjoy your day.


Please re-read my post!

I did not call you a weasel, I was refering to 'tuna's' abusive post [as an example of a culture unique to the internet].
I did not threaten violence though there may have been a percieved intimation of potential violence [threats over the internet are pointless].

Lastly, please tell me what you know about the raising, slaughtering and processing of these 'happy animals' you are eating? I am intrigued as to where they are?

Your arguments are at best cute and at worst dishonest. I would dare to suspect that you saw this thread and like so many others on it dived in and looked for the first post you could dispute to justify your own moral/ethical stance, seeing mine you dived on it without actually reading on or comprehending the actual intent of the post. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and put this down to cultural difference and a misunderstanding brought on by this approach.

Now if you would care to find some real dirt to hurl my way I have made several much more dodgy posts [defended the origins of pre 'nazi-bonehead' skinhead culture [60's skinheads] and buddhism, critiqued variously US foreign policy, the gun nuts, ecconomic idealogues and probably many more things you would seek offense in] have a ball, now I will leave this thread to it's actual topic [feel free to start a seperate one for your spurious arguments however, or perhaps take it to the mods, I'm happy either way].

peace j


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23 May 2011, 12:36 am

MrLoony wrote:
1. B12 deficiency is found in very few omnivores relative to vegans. I believe the percentages is 10% vs. 50%. (Edit4: My apologies, it's actually 5% in omnivores vs. 92% in vegans: http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/ ... deficiency)
Cool story bro. Keep chanting that over and over as if it reflects nutritional deficiency of a diet versus individual choices. You might also wanna mention that vegans have lower levels of dietary-related diseases. You know, if you were intellectually-honest.
MrLoony wrote:
2. An inability to convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid is actually rather common (and is not considered a disorder, it's more along the lines of a difference in eye color), and linoleic acid can only be converted into arachidonic acid very inefficiently. Even if you can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid, this is meant to be as a backup plan in case your body can't get arachidonic acid. (Edit3: Hey, just for fun, what source do you have that shows that your body can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid [and other fatty acids important to brain function that are only found in meat]?

Well, none, because the question relies on a false premise.
I get plenty from eating food topped with sauces made from nutritional yeast which are very roughly analogous to the uses an omnivore might have for cheese in cooking.

MrLoony wrote:
Did you doctor ever run a test on that?)

My doctor's the one who recommended veganism to me because of the health benefits, actually- I'm less deficient in nutrients now than when I was eating as healthful an omnivorous diet as I could afford. You know, you're very accusatory in your tone, demanding to know people's medical info. Too bad you don't know what you're talking about, just like when you asserted vegans "cannot" eat at restaurants for some strange reason.
MrLoony wrote:
3. I'm guessing your source is a site dedicated to turning people vegan? Actually, the studies that this originates with involve adding arachidonic acid into yeast.

Well to be fair, any site that included health information on the subject would recommend veganism. There's after all no inherent corporate incentive to promote the NON-consumption of something.

Here's my source, sweetheart:

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association (that is, the largest national association of dietitians and nutritionists) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs."
American Dietetic Association

MrLoony wrote:
Edit: By the way, I notice that you never reply to my posts unless you can intentionally misconstrue what I'm saying or apply vegan propaganda to it.

If you say so. I've actually just been refuting your assertions left and right, many of which are genuinely-absurd.
MrLoony wrote:
Edit2: One more thing: I notice that you never actually cite sources.

That which can be asserted without evidence (links to pop-science blogs are not evidence) can be dismissed without evidence.
Plant neurobiology? I copied that post and sent it to to an ASPB member. He laughed aloud.
MrLoony wrote:
All you do is spout vegan propaganda.

Says the one spamming up this thread attacking vegans and interrogating them about their nutrition and demanding to know how they can be healthy given his own ignorance on health, citing as "sources" about veganism's inadequacy links to science-based websites on specific nutrients recommending flax seed as an adequate source, and shrieking "propaganda" whenever anyone disagrees with him.
MrLoony wrote:
And, in case you're wondering where my sources are, I've already cited them, but for some reason, I have to repeat the things the sources said.

Probably because you don't respond when your assertions are refuted- you just keep reciting them incessantly. OCD?


Put as much effort into acting like an adult as you do into posturing and faux-outrage at being challenged,
and this conversation might get somewhere.



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23 May 2011, 3:47 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
1. B12 deficiency is found in very few omnivores relative to vegans. I believe the percentages is 10% vs. 50%. (Edit4: My apologies, it's actually 5% in omnivores vs. 92% in vegans: http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/ ... deficiency)
Cool story bro. Keep chanting that over and over as if it reflects nutritional deficiency of a diet versus individual choices. You might also wanna mention that vegans have lower levels of dietary-related diseases. You know, if you were intellectually-honest.


I provide evidence, and you dismiss it because it goes against the vegan propaganda that you've been spouting, and then continue to spout the vegan propoganda that I disproved. 92% of vegans vs. 5% of omnivores have B12 deficiencies and that's somehow irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not a vegan diet can actually provide the nutrients necessary?

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
2. An inability to convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid is actually rather common (and is not considered a disorder, it's more along the lines of a difference in eye color), and linoleic acid can only be converted into arachidonic acid very inefficiently. Even if you can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid, this is meant to be as a backup plan in case your body can't get arachidonic acid. (Edit3: Hey, just for fun, what source do you have that shows that your body can convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid [and other fatty acids important to brain function that are only found in meat]?

Well, none, because the question relies on a false premise.
I get plenty from eating food topped with sauces made from nutritional yeast which are very roughly analogous to the uses an omnivore might have for cheese in cooking.

MrLoony wrote:
Did you doctor ever run a test on that?)

My doctor's the one who recommended veganism to me because of the health benefits, actually- I'm less deficient in nutrients now than when I was eating as healthful an omnivorous diet as I could afford. You know, you're very accusatory in your tone, demanding to know people's medical info. Too bad you don't know what you're talking about, just like when you asserted vegans "cannot" eat at restaurants for some strange reason.
MrLoony wrote:
3. I'm guessing your source is a site dedicated to turning people vegan? Actually, the studies that this originates with involve adding arachidonic acid into yeast.

Well to be fair, any site that included health information on the subject would recommend veganism. There's after all no inherent corporate incentive to promote the NON-consumption of something.

Here's my source, sweetheart:

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association (that is, the largest national association of dietitians and nutritionists) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs."
American Dietetic Association


Funny story: None of that says anything about vegan sources of arachidonic acid.

Also: http://www.whale.to/a/enig.html

The claims made that vegan diets reduce the risk of various chronic illnesses fail to take into account things such as food additives and others tend to actually prove the opposite. (see: Links I already provided). You may want to link a source other than a special interest group, because I really can't believe that any person on this forum would actually think that that's a good source instead of unbiased information. Oh! And for added fun:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/746#IDA2QXKEB

Notice that as the contribution of meat in our diets goes down, obesity goes up. In fact, it's fortified grain that's closely correlated to obesity:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/746/figure/F8

Other figures relevant to the discussion:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/746/figure/F7
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/746/figure/F6

Furthermore, your claim that there isn't an "inherent corporate incentive to promote the NON-consumption of something" shows a lack of understanding in the food industry.

Example from "Nourishing Traditions":

"A good example is Harvard University where Dr. Frederick Stare, head of the nutrition department for many years, began his career with several articles delineating nutritional deficiencies caused by white flour and a study on Irish brothers that positively correlated a high intake of vegetable oils--not animal fats--with heart disease. Soon after he became department head, however, the university received several important grants from the food processing industry. Dr. Stare's articles and weekly newspaper columns then began assuring the public that there was nothing wrong with white bread, sugar, and highly processed foods. He recommended one cup of corn oil per day to prevent heart disease, and in one article he even suggested Coca-Cola as a snack!"

Keep in mind that this is one example of how research that goes against the lipid hypothesis (Edit5: Rather, the diet-heart hypothesis. My apologies, as these two are often used interchangeably) is regularly suppressed (See: Uffe Ravnskov and The Cholesterol Myth). Not only do companies controlling grain and plant-based agriculture have an interest in suppressing this, but the media does as well (Uffe Ravnskov again).

(Edit4: Something else to keep in mind is that grass fed and pasture raised animals have a very low profit margin, especially compared to grain [which is why grain production is controlled by a few very large corporations and grass fed and pasture raised animal products are not, mainly consisting of local farms or collectives].)

Also keep in mind other things that have been recommended for "good health" over the years:
White sugar
Margarine
Vegetable oil (click on the links I've provided to see how that doesn't work)

Do you really think that using argumentum ad populum by saying that "everyone recommends it" is a valid argument? Especially considering that I've shown, many times that the reasoning behind this is faulty and based on misinformation.

I pointed out that vegans cannot eat at fast food restaurants (who use considerable amounts of vegetable oils and processed food) because it's true. Did you miss the link I provided? This is another example of your "refuting" completely ignoring the proof I provide. There is not a single fast food restaurant that will make the claim that their food is vegan (the nutrition information that fast food restaurants pass out generally contain a disclaimer that says that they can not and will not make this claim).

(Edit: You've also failed to point out a single study that shows that arachidonic acid can be found in yeast)

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
Edit: By the way, I notice that you never reply to my posts unless you can intentionally misconstrue what I'm saying or apply vegan propaganda to it.

If you say so. I've actually just been refuting your assertions left and right, many of which are genuinely-absurd.


Your "refuting" only took place with my argument for plant intelligence, in which your response was that it was crap (which you'd know is not true if you actually did the research. Any time that I put forth an argument, you say (essentially) that. I then respond with my sources, and then you ignore it. Except, of course, in this post, where your argument was, again, "That's crap." You continually ignore the evidence I provide, except in the case where you can respond with vegan propoganda.

How about this: Give me your requirement for intelligence that has been proven to be present in farm animals (in fact, let's go with cows specifically). I will provide you with resources that prove that these are present in plants as well.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
All you do is spout vegan propaganda.

Says the one spamming up this thread attacking vegans and interrogating them about their nutrition and demanding to know how they can be healthy given his own ignorance on health, citing as "sources" about veganism's inadequacy links to science-based websites on specific nutrients recommending flax seed as an adequate source, and shrieking "propaganda" whenever anyone disagrees with him.


It's propaganda because it has no actual basis in reality. Note how I'm actually citing sources that prove what I am saying (such as the fact that vegan and vegetarians suffer from nutrient deficiencies), whereas you continue to stick to the claim that vegan diets have nothing to do with nutrient deficiencies. This is vegan propaganda. It's something that's repeated over and over, even in the face of evidence that proves otherwise.

Flax seed oil is a source of linoleic and alpha-linoleic acids, which, as I've shown from my sources, is not sufficient for DHA or AA. Furthermore, none of my sources recommended flax seed as an "adequate source," only as something to use in small amounts of salad dressing if you have an omega-6/omega-3 imbalance.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MrLoony wrote:
And, in case you're wondering where my sources are, I've already cited them, but for some reason, I have to repeat the things the sources said.

Probably because you don't respond when your assertions are refuted- you just keep reciting them incessantly. OCD?


This is actually the exact opposite of what's happening. You keep saying vegan propoganda as if it's proof, whereas I'm providing sources. Protip: Propoganda is not a valid tool for refuting. Provide actual evidence.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Put as much effort into acting like an adult as you do into posturing and faux-outrage at being challenged,
and this conversation might get somewhere.


ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cool story bro.

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Oh noes!


Now, I will concede that, after reviewing (some) studies done in the matter, it seems that vegans can, on average, have similar levels of arachidonic acid (though they only studied vegans with high fat intakes [the studies that seem to show that a vegan diet has health benefits focus on low fat vegan diets], which requires much more careful planning of food intake for vegan diets and require extremely high levels of linoleic acid consumption. They also failed to take into account reduced D6D function with age [Edit: So it may be better to say that most young vegans that have not suffered major illness can get enough AA from LA]), but DHA (which is also important to the brain) was shown to be very low. This is especially important in pregnant and nursing women, since low DHA levels in mothers has been shown to have a severe impact on infant health. (Edit2: I should point out that while young people can convert LA into AA, the B12 deficiencies and low DHA levels are even more dangerous on developing minds, so that's no reason to say that people should eat vegan from age 15-35 [or whatever other arbitrary cutoff is determined]. I also forgot to mention that in those vegans with similar levels of AA, the omega-6:omega-3 ratios were a lot unhealthier than in the omnivores)

Edit3: I also notice in your posts that you seem to take the stance that grain-fed, factory farmed beef = grass fed, pasture raised beef. This is most certainly not the case. I have pointed out (many times) that factory farmed beef does, in fact, have health detriments (the same applies to similarly raised chickens, sheep, and pork). This is another reason why taking random omnivores and comparing them to random vegans doesn't work: Most omnivores do not eat grass fed, pasture raised, or compassionate certified meat and animal products. Grain fed, factory farmed animal products and meat are not nearly as good for you as animals that are treated humanely throughout their lives and allowed to eat the foods they are naturally supposed to eat.


_________________
"Let reason be your only sovereign." ~Wizard's Sixth Rule
I'm working my way up to Attending Crazy Taoist. For now, just call me Dr. Crazy Taoist.


Last edited by MrLoony on 23 May 2011, 6:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.