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cyberdad
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10 Oct 2020, 12:28 am

adromedanblackhole wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
I thought you meant you intended to defer to Gary McKinnon's opinion on something.

I enjoy using words in such a way as to create imagery out of abstractions. So on a topic that can yield a fair amount of commentary and responses that can feel like a barrage of negativity - the question regarding the US government reverse engineering alien technology to explain our rapid advancement since the 1950s - I am saying I would like to shield myself and redirect said barrage elsewhere.

It is also a common political communication strategy when dealing with a topic or question that is not in ones best interest in answering to apply the D's: deflect, delay, deny, discount, discredit etc. Again, I am being wry, I am aware I'm not a politician. If I was I would not openly reference myself as deflecting a question.


You do realise you are derailing your own thread?

Negative. I did not start the line of questioning about my word choice, merely supporting it.
And I'm perfectly comfortable with tangents.

You are the OP so it's Your call....but the title of the thread is "I'm Not Saying It Was Aliens ..."

Relax


I am...your move...



adromedanblackhole
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10 Oct 2020, 12:44 am

cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
I thought you meant you intended to defer to Gary McKinnon's opinion on something.

I enjoy using words in such a way as to create imagery out of abstractions. So on a topic that can yield a fair amount of commentary and responses that can feel like a barrage of negativity - the question regarding the US government reverse engineering alien technology to explain our rapid advancement since the 1950s - I am saying I would like to shield myself and redirect said barrage elsewhere.

It is also a common political communication strategy when dealing with a topic or question that is not in ones best interest in answering to apply the D's: deflect, delay, deny, discount, discredit etc. Again, I am being wry, I am aware I'm not a politician. If I was I would not openly reference myself as deflecting a question.


You do realise you are derailing your own thread?

Negative. I did not start the line of questioning about my word choice, merely supporting it.
And I'm perfectly comfortable with tangents.

You are the OP so it's Your call....but the title of the thread is "I'm Not Saying It Was Aliens ..."

Relax


I am...your move...

Anyone's move - I don't claim to be an expert on the topic, just like hearing what other people know



envirozentinel
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10 Oct 2020, 1:23 am

South Africa has its fair share of well documented UFO encounters too, especially in the 1970s. I've also covered these in one or two of my blogs a couple of years ago. The Savoy Hotel in the small town of Fort Beaufort features the "UFO Bar".

Sightings continue to be reported...


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Pepe
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10 Oct 2020, 1:38 am

envirozentinel wrote:
South Africa has its fair share of well documented UFO encounters too, especially in the 1970s. I've also covered these in one or two of my blogs a couple of years ago. The Savoy Hotel in the small town of Fort Beaufort features the "UFO Bar".

Sightings continue to be reported...


Where?

I haven't heard about UFO sightings for decades now?



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10 Oct 2020, 1:48 am

Ah, that's because you don't keep up to date with 'em...

take a look at this:


https://www.mufon.com/

Was just reading on Quora about an incident recounted by a woman in your neck of the woods who had an unexplainable experience as a little girl... who klnows - she might live down your street! :mrgreen:


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cyberdad
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10 Oct 2020, 2:34 am

envirozentinel wrote:
South Africa has its fair share of well documented UFO encounters too, especially in the 1970s. I've also covered these in one or two of my blogs a couple of years ago. The Savoy Hotel in the small town of Fort Beaufort features the "UFO Bar".

Sightings continue to be reported...


It would have been amusing if aliens landed in South Africa during the height of the apartheid years and watching PW Botha speak to his parliament about which facilities they would allowed to use :lol:



cyberdad
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10 Oct 2020, 2:37 am

envirozentinel wrote:
Ah, that's because you don't keep up to date with 'em...

take a look at this:


https://www.mufon.com/

Was just reading on Quora about an incident recounted by a woman in your neck of the woods who had an unexplainable experience as a little girl... who klnows - she might live down your street! :mrgreen:


One of the most famous cases in the entire world took place in Zimbabwe (back then Rhodesia) in 1994.
https://mg.co.za/article/2014-09-04-rem ... -invasion/

Unfortunately the investigator Cynthia Hind passed away in 2000 but there are numerous documentaries including researchers from Harvard who took an interest in her work.



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10 Oct 2020, 11:59 am

Thoughts on George Van Tassel?
I have been itching to visit the Integratron in Landers, CA not terribly close but considerably closer for me than many on this thread.
Find it amusing that he built the Integratron largely with donations from Howard Hughs.

Wiki on the Integratron: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integratron
Integratron website: https://www.integratron.com/



naturalplastic
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10 Oct 2020, 12:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Ah I already deleted the rest of the quote but you seem to be referencing the panspermia hypothesis


So panspermia is a parallel hypothesis which posits that earth was (and is still) seeded with microbes from deep space that have been sourced from other planets millions of light years away.

.


Get it right please. It's not "millions of light years away". Its either "millions of miles away", or its "many light years away".

Panspermia is usually postulated as happening either within our own solar system (ie between Mars and earth say), or as Earth being seeded from an exoplanet around another star in interstellar space. If the former then the distances involved would be in the tens of millons of miles, but nowhere near a single "light year". If the later then the distances could be dozens, hundreds, or thousands, of light years. But the whole galaxy is only 100 thousand light years wide. So it cant be "millions of light years".



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10 Oct 2020, 1:31 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Ah I already deleted the rest of the quote but you seem to be referencing the panspermia hypothesis


So panspermia is a parallel hypothesis which posits that earth was (and is still) seeded with microbes from deep space that have been sourced from other planets millions of light years away.

.


Get it right please. It's not "millions of light years away". Its either "millions of miles away", or its "many light years away".

Panspermia is usually postulated as happening either within our own solar system (ie between Mars and earth say), or as Earth being seeded from an exoplanet around another star in interstellar space. If the former then the distances involved would be in the tens of millons of miles, but nowhere near a single "light year". If the later then the distances could be dozens, hundreds, or thousands, of light years. But the whole galaxy is only 100 thousand light years wide. So it cant be "millions of light years".


Your constriction that the furthest possible distance that this hypothesis could rest on is the size of our galaxy. Curious as to why, it seems like an arbitrary limit.

The hypothesis as I'm familiar with it refers to a period a few billion years ago in earth's history:
Quote:
One argument that supports the panspermia theory is the emergence of life soon after the heavy bombardment period of earth, between 4 and 3.8 billion years ago. During this period, researchers believe the Earth endured an extended and very powerful series of meteor showers. However, the earliest evidence for life on Earth suggests it was present some 3.83 billion years ago, overlapping with this bombardment phase. These observations suggest that living things during this period would have faced extinction, contributing to the idea that life did not originate on Earth.

It does not necessarily impose a limit in terms of the distances from which life could travel to reach earth.
Source: https://helix.northwestern.edu/article/ ... mia-theory



naturalplastic
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10 Oct 2020, 2:38 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Ah I already deleted the rest of the quote but you seem to be referencing the panspermia hypothesis


So panspermia is a parallel hypothesis which posits that earth was (and is still) seeded with microbes from deep space that have been sourced from other planets millions of light years away.

.


Get it right please. It's not "millions of light years away". Its either "millions of miles away", or its "many light years away".

Panspermia is usually postulated as happening either within our own solar system (ie between Mars and earth say), or as Earth being seeded from an exoplanet around another star in interstellar space. If the former then the distances involved would be in the tens of millons of miles, but nowhere near a single "light year". If the later then the distances could be dozens, hundreds, or thousands, of light years. But the whole galaxy is only 100 thousand light years wide. So it cant be "millions of light years".


Your constriction that the furthest possible distance that this hypothesis could rest on is the size of our galaxy. Curious as to why, it seems like an arbitrary limit.

The hypothesis as I'm familiar with it refers to a period a few billion years ago in earth's history:
Quote:
One argument that supports the panspermia theory is the emergence of life soon after the heavy bombardment period of earth, between 4 and 3.8 billion years ago. During this period, researchers believe the Earth endured an extended and very powerful series of meteor showers. However, the earliest evidence for life on Earth suggests it was present some 3.83 billion years ago, overlapping with this bombardment phase. These observations suggest that living things during this period would have faced extinction, contributing to the idea that life did not originate on Earth.

It does not necessarily impose a limit in terms of the distances from which life could travel to reach earth.
Source: https://helix.northwestern.edu/article/ ... mia-theory


I did not say "I think that there is a time limit to how long panspermia (if it happened at all) could have happened. I will get to what I actually think in a moment.Dont put words into my mouth please.

I said "most folks who put forth the theory of panspermia are not talking about millions of light years distance". And there are good reasons that they dont.

My contention was that Cyberdad was just being sloppy in his word usage, or that he may actually be confused about cosmic distances, and how things compare to each other. He may not even understand what a "light year" actually IS. Any of which would be minor infractions for laypersons in most conversations. But for a guy like Cyber who makes a cause celeb out of UFOs , and is now conversing about the topic, its a major infraction. He should up his game. An alien microbe might reach earth after being in interstellar space for millions of years, but its unlikely that it would have come from a source in another galaxy that was millions of light years away (asteroids, comets, cosmic dust, and other natural vehicles for seeding would not move as fast as light). Most likely it would come from another star system within our own galaxy.

I dont know why you posted this because it just proves my point:
The hypothesis as I'm familiar with it refers to a period a few billion years ago in earth's history:
Quote:
One argument that supports the panspermia theory is the emergence of life soon after the heavy bombardment period of earth, between 4 and 3.8 billion years ago. During this period, researchers believe the Earth endured an extended and very powerful series of meteor showers. However, the earliest evidence for life on Earth suggests it was present some 3.83 billion years ago, overlapping with this bombardment phase. These observations suggest that living things during this period would have faced extinction, contributing to the idea that life did not originate on Earth.


Your copy says that Life got seeded on earth at some point. And that point was billions of years ago. After getting seeded - life took root thrived and evoled HERE ON EARTH for billions of years. It did not TRAVEL TO EARTH THROUGH SPACE over billions of years. It made its home HERE for that length of time. Your post says the opposite of your own point and reiterates what I am saying.

There was an early period in which the solar system was a shooting gallery- 4.5 billion to 3.8 billion. Then the bombartment of earth by meteors slacked off. And then life took root and started. And is still here today. Life might have risen here on earth from earth. Or some cell might have fallen to earth from space and seeded earth.

If the later it would have hitched a ride on a comet or something from another star system.

Stars here in the Milky Way average about five LY apart. So if the star were 100 doors down the street in the nieghborhood it would 500 LYs away. But since an asteroid or speck of dust floating through space between the source star and here would be moving at sublight speeds - less one ten thousandth the SOL it would take five million years for it to float to our solar system.

Nature might have our microbe circling the entire galaxy three times before it hits earth. But that would mean (three times the circumference of the Milky Way =900K LY)its voyage would be ten thousand times a billion years.

If it came from a source millions of light years away then that would have to be from another galaxy. Andromeda is the closest other galaxy at two million light years - it would take so long for nature to cast a seed from that distance that the Universe itself would be too young to have spawned life before a certain point. According to current data about stellar evolution you couldnt have heavier than helium/hydrogen elements (needed to make life) for the first several generations of stars in the history of the whole Universe. Our sun may have been in the first graduating class to even have the potential to have life in its solar system because it may have been in the first "generation" to have a lot heavy elements like carbon and iron in its solar system to build things with like planets and cells.

I dont wanna sidetrack the thread in a debate about someone's careless slip of the tongue. If Cyber had not put that "millions" into the sentence all would be fine. But if you're gonna talk about far out unproven things like panspermia you shouldnt compound your problems by heaping other unnecessary unproven things on top of it.



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10 Oct 2020, 3:49 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Ah I already deleted the rest of the quote but you seem to be referencing the panspermia hypothesis


So panspermia is a parallel hypothesis which posits that earth was (and is still) seeded with microbes from deep space that have been sourced from other planets millions of light years away.

.


Get it right please. It's not "millions of light years away". Its either "millions of miles away", or its "many light years away".

Panspermia is usually postulated as happening either within our own solar system (ie between Mars and earth say), or as Earth being seeded from an exoplanet around another star in interstellar space. If the former then the distances involved would be in the tens of millons of miles, but nowhere near a single "light year". If the later then the distances could be dozens, hundreds, or thousands, of light years. But the whole galaxy is only 100 thousand light years wide. So it cant be "millions of light years".

You established the size of the galaxy to negate the claim by cyberdad for why the origin of life from other plants cannot be millions of light years away. No need for me to add or even infer - these are just your words verbatim



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10 Oct 2020, 3:51 pm

I used the quote to distinguish it does not constrain the distance from which this life might have came from.
Again, in the original quote you had mentioned that it cannot be millions of light years away given the size of our galaxy - which, I'm not going to touch that...
Size of our galaxy is irrelevant to the idea of how far life could have come from, arbitrary constriction.
I am demonstrating no such constrictions are typically referenced in the hypothesis



Last edited by adromedanblackhole on 10 Oct 2020, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adromedanblackhole
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10 Oct 2020, 3:59 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Your copy says that Life got seeded on earth at some point. And that point was billions of years ago. After getting seeded - life took root thrived and evoled HERE ON EARTH for billions of years. It did not TRAVEL TO EARTH THROUGH SPACE over billions of years. It made its home HERE for that length of time. Your post says the opposite of your own point and reiterates what I am saying.

My original post was an invitation to a broader discussion in which I shared an idea I have encountered and may or not not believe. I did not claim this was the panspermia hypothesis.
Now we're discussing the panspermia hypothesis.
This is a conversation, not a debate.[/quote]

naturalplastic wrote:
I dont wanna sidetrack the thread in a debate about someone's careless slip of the tongue.

It's not a debate, we're having a conversation amongst friends who hold similar interests.



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10 Oct 2020, 4:06 pm

I am what I am, so I'm taking that "millions of light years" slip down a deep, deep rabbit hole....

The first interstellar object ever found in the Solar System, the asteroid ʻOumuamua*, was discovered in 2017. The second, the comet 2I Borisov, was found only two years later. Finding 2 such large objects in such a short period of time implies that there is a steady stream of interstellar debris entering our star system. Counting dust and tiny rocks, the yearly total could be in the thousands. Now, such journeys between star systems probably takes these objects millions of years. But the Universe is billions of years old.

"Millions of light years"- the Milky Way is only 200,000 light years across. There's a a couple of dwarf galaxies about a million light years away, I think. The Andromeda Galaxy, the nearest big-un, is about 2.5 million light years away, Triangulum a little bit further. Not sure, but I believe galaxies used to be closer together billions of years ago when the Universe was young and smaller, so there may have been several more within a few million light years back then. Stars occasionally get expelled from their host galaxies at mind-boggling speeds - some have been spotted in intergalactic space; others have been seen moving at galactic escape velocity. The same may well happen to smaller objects.

Some of those small objects could be rocks dislodged from planets, like the Martian meteorites we get on Earth. And there are living things like bacterial cysts, tardigrades and fairy shrimp eggs, that can survive long exposure to extreme temperatures, vacuum and radiation in a dormant state. Intergalactic panspermia? It's a trillion to one shot, but it might just work!

Personally, I don't think panspermia is necessary to explain life on Earth. But I don't think it's impossible either.

*or blatant alien space probe, depending on who you talk to...


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Last edited by PhosphorusDecree on 10 Oct 2020, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Oct 2020, 4:07 pm

Anyway:
Thoughts on George Van Tassel?
I have been itching to visit the Integratron in Landers, CA not terribly close but considerably closer for me than many on this thread.
Find it amusing that he built the Integratron largely with donations from Howard Hughs.

Wiki on the Integratron: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integratron
Integratron website: https://www.integratron.com/