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the xpax
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08 Dec 2021, 11:40 am

Greetings !

Firstly, I had to test negative for autism before aspergers was even allowed to be tested for.
And that under criteria 'f' in DSM IV-TR.
The ICD 10 manual still diagnoses Asperger's Syndrome.

Now eleven points of difference between aspies (ASs) and the DSM's highly functioning autistics (HFAs):
-- HFAs delayed language development is never in ASs
-- ASs have at least average IQ which is not the rule in HFAs
-- ASs have fine motor skills problems which HFAs do not have to
-- ASs have a Theory of Mind problem HFAs do not
-- ASs generally have laser hyper-focus ability HFAs do not
-- ASs normally cannot explain their social impairments while HFAs can
-- ASs tend to see social constructs HFAs and NTs cannot
-- ASs tend to have intense and narrow interest(s) which HFAs do not
-- ASs tend to have a strong sense of right and wrong which HFAs do not
-- ASs tend to bluntly say whatever truth of theirs comes to mind which HFAs do not
-- ASs tend to have compulsive needs to correct errors which HFAs do not

There are more. Aspies are not highly functioning autistics.
The DSM is essentially for and by researchers and statisticians, not clinicians, who are sick and tired of having AS complicate their work. And so in DSM 5.0 (they have changed to decimals for ease of naming any future text revisions) AS is simply declared to be autism where they had held it must not be. The DSM Committee essentially said 'gee, sorry, the sky is really purple with polka dots after all' wanting to ignore aspergers out of existence.

They can kill us off on paper, forcing Clinicians to call AS autism or lose their license to practice, but they cannot murder us out of existence.

Thank you.



Fnord
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08 Dec 2021, 11:59 am

AS is a subclass of ASD, not a separate disorder..



RubyWings91
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08 Dec 2021, 12:13 pm

At this point, I think it's an unfortunate case of them trying to shove a whole bunch of diagnoses into one category that would benefit more from being their own disorders but it was easier to just label them all 'Autism Spectrum Disorder.' I definitely agree that Asperger's Syndrome should continue to be it's own disorder.



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08 Dec 2021, 2:33 pm

As I understand it, the reason why the two conditions we recatagorized into one was that they have the same route cause which is that some of the brain links in the frontal area of the brain which do not connect up. Some can be geniuses in other areas because when the brain develops while it is still growing, it compensates for these missing links by developing new growth to other areas of the brain instead which is why one may get a very intelligent person in one area who may struggle with doing more basic tasks in another area. This can puzzle others who assume that intelligent people may not need help.

Now this is what I have learned when I was finding out about autism.
At one time in the past, one of the main deciding factors in diagnosing either autism or aspergers syndrome was based on the patients IQ level as the majority of people who displayed traits who could be classed as either had to be catagorized into one or the other.
Generally though, those who were able to mask better or/and has less severe traits were classed as having aspergers syndrome, and those who had more significent traits and were less able to mask their traits were classed as having autism.

Today as aspergers and autism were both found to have the same route cause, now that we have the technology available to study patients brain functions more closely, they are all classed under the general term of "Autiam" and then there are sub catagories from there.
The old autism catagory being now classed as "Classic autism".

Here is something that under the old catagories shows that they both have the same root cause and that they are often hireditary, is that my first proper introduction to autism was when I dated a lady who was diagnosed as having aspergers syndrome under the old catagory. She was assessed after her son was diagnosed with autism. They both have similar traits, but her son is less able to mask his traits while with her, it is harder to notice. The whole family were also assessed and her brother was also on the spectrum. I believer her mother may have been as well but I am not sure. With them, none of them knew they were on the spectrum, and the sons behavious which was obvious to the school was normal behaviour to the family so they did not notice it as being any different to their own behaviour.
That is part of the issue in why so many never are diagnosed, because unless one has others to point it out like I have had from my past which I did not believe at the time, or if like me one may have hit crises point, one may never have known... Though for me, I am waiting to be assessed so I may or may not be on the spectrum.



skrish234
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08 Dec 2021, 2:50 pm

As a HFA I cannot agree more. I do find autism really confusing. Why do scientists make it so complicated?



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08 Dec 2021, 10:57 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
As I understand it, the reason why the -------.


Summarized (As I understand it):

Autism manifests itself into 'aspergers' when in early development, the neuro-plasticity of the brain is sufficiently stimulated by social conditions, stirring greater adaption to cultural norms and behaviors, allowing the cortex to remap, redirect, reroute autonomic processes, skills, cognitive functions, that were damaged or missing, and allow them to 'pass'. Sometimes for many many years undiagnosed. I believe speculate higher iq = more rewiring from a growth spurt in the cerebral hemispheres. Kinda reminded how a plant is damaged it grows back limbs. The brain synapse are very tree like if you ever see a image of them.


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09 Dec 2021, 5:14 am

Something I do is I tend to talk round the world and back to get to the point, because if I try to speak directly, sometimes I get mindblank, though this is more noticeable when I am nurvous.
So I automatically keep shifting off at tangents to eventually reach the point in what I wanted to say.

I believe I may do this because my brain signals are not going directly? I am guessing here.

I recently had an EEG done to check I don't get fits, and I don't so that is ok and good. I actually told the autism people I don't get fits but they wanted to check just incase. My Dad used to get petit mal fits as a child so it is why I was tested.

Though on rare occasions when I am not concentrating on something but I am deep in thought I will go into a blank fixed stare.

The next thing I am waiting for is an autism assessment.



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09 Dec 2021, 3:51 pm

skrish234 wrote:
As a HFA I cannot agree more. I do find autism really confusing. Why do scientists make it so complicated?


It's not scientists, it's the autistic community. A lot of spectrumers believe that there is no such thing as mild, moderate or severe, but the way I see it, there is such a thing, it exists and everybody knows it but some just don't want to believe in it.

I'm a strong believer in functioning differences across the spectrum. Asperger's is a high-functioning or mild form of autism. Sometimes it can be so different from autism in some ways. Some people with Asperger's can seem like they only have social anxiety, depression and ADD mixed together. I feel like that at times. I don't feel autistic. The word autism reminds me of people who "live inside their heads" and don't have much awareness of the social world and have narrow special interests and very little interest, or skills, in socialising or expressing emotions. Some people's Asperger's is hardly noticeable at all. I'm a perfect example of this. I've just been to a large social gathering today, and I've been making natural eye contact and talking to people all day. Now I'm home, with my boyfriend, but I'm not exhausted from socialising. I don't have a desire to go and hide in a darkened room and stim. Socialising actually boosts my mood, self-esteem and ego. I love eye contact and being touched. I haven't socialised with lots of in a long time (because of the pandemic) but I didn't feel overwhelmed or anything. In fact I wanted attention from people. Also I saw some videos people took (that I didn't know were filming at the time) and I looked like any normal person, in body language as well. I was smiling, making eye contact, laughing, having conversations, hugging. Not even a professional would have noticed I was ASD if they didn't know.

And no - I wasn't drinking any alcohol. I enjoyed every minute of it. I like socialising and mingling. I like people. People interest me.
I find socialising fairly simple, just like riding a bike. This is why I get frustrated, baffled and upset when I don't have many friends. I'm not that bad around people.

I know that's just me I'm talking about but I think if I had a more severe case of autism I probably wouldn't have been able to cope with a social gathering like that, sober, with lots of people. Or if I did, I'd probably rock or flap my hands as soon as I got home or something, to release myself. But I don't need to.


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09 Dec 2021, 4:14 pm

Asperger's is a form of high-functioning autism.

There is also high-functioning "classic" autism.

There is no shame in being autistic. You're not a pervert or a criminal because you're autistic. You're like any person with any health or psychological condition. Are you ashamed when you have a cold? Are you ashamed that you have anxiety?



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09 Dec 2021, 4:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Asperger's is a form of high-functioning autism.

There is also high-functioning "classic" autism.

There is no shame in being autistic. You're not a pervert or a criminal because you're autistic. You're like any person with any health or psychological condition. Are you ashamed when you have a cold? Are you ashamed that you have anxiety?


I'm not ashamed of having a cold because everybody gets colds (I hate having a cold though, like really hate it). I'm ashamed of being 'autistic' because it's not in the majority and it makes me feel not normal. I just want to be normal.


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09 Dec 2021, 6:54 pm

I've met plenty of "abnormal" people who are not autistic in the least.

I'm abnormal. That's just the way the ball bounces. I can't do anything about it. I have to make the best of what I have and don't have. It makes me upset only when someone thinks negatively of me merely because I'm "different."

I used to be sort of "proud" of being abnormal---but now I'm pretty neutral about it.



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09 Dec 2021, 6:59 pm

-- HFAs delayed language development is never in ASs
True.

-- ASs have at least average IQ which is not the rule in HFAs
Wrong. HFA is also defined by average to above-average intelligence, language delay is supposed to be the difference

-- ASs have fine motor skills problems which HFAs do not have to
To be diagnosed one has to have most of, not all of the traits.

-- ASs have a Theory of Mind problem HFAs do not
Theory of Mind deficits is thought to be a key autistic trait. This is controversial.

-- ASs generally have laser hyper-focus ability HFAs do not
In 8 years here I have not noticed that about HFA's

-- ASs normally cannot explain their social impairments while HFAs can
In my time here I have read plenty of Aspies that understand their social impairments.

-- ASs tend to see social constructs HFAs and NTs cannot
NT's generally are superior in understanding these. It is theirs, they set them up, thus the "Wrong Planet" analogy.

-- ASs tend to have intense and narrow interest(s) which HFAs do not
News to me

-- ASs tend to have a strong sense of right and wrong which HFAs do not
?????????????

-- ASs tend to bluntly say whatever truth of theirs comes to mind which HFAs do not
Not having a filter is an autistic trait. Aspies do not have a monopoly on this.

-- ASs tend to have compulsive needs to correct errors which HFAs do not
News to me, that HFA's do not

The DSM is essentially for and by researchers and statisticians, not clinicians, who are sick and tired of having AS complicate their work.
The DSM is for insurance companies and almost everybody is sick and tired of them complicating their work.

forcing Clinicians to call AS autism or lose their license to practice
Wrong, the DSM5 is a guideline that is not always followed. They do not have the power to take away licenses. We have members diagnosed with Aspergers after it was "killed". We have members diagnosed with High Functioning Autism which is not a diagnosis in any manual. Clinicians are usually NT's so a lot of them do not follow the manual literally. They fit the patients' actual conditions to the manual language often in a way that is profitable for themselves.


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10 Dec 2021, 12:38 am

I'd rather be happy than normal, but that's just me. Life is short.


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the xpax
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10 Dec 2021, 1:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
AS is a subclass of ASD, not a separate disorder..


The term "Autistic Spectrum Disorder" [ASD] I think of as "Autistic 'kinda like' Disorder" concerning AS.

AS is not a separate diagnosis under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders version 5 (an American-based publication), but remains one in countries under the International Classification of Diseases 10 (more authoritatively a World Health Organization publication).

Firstly, AS is not a Disorder. It is a Syndrome like Tourette Syndrome. An alternative neurology not pathological, rather problematic when lived with neurotypicals (NTs).
Also, when AS was still recognized in the DSM, its diagnosis had to follow a negative diagnosis for autism (DSM-IV-TR criteria f). So AS was recognized as not being autism and colloquially an ASD..
Since it was nevertheless called an ASD it was on a 'kinda like' basis.
So I cannot call AS a subclass of ASDs due to that designation's implication that it is autism, except as DSM 5 puts it forward, as highly functioning autism (HFAs). Of course to public detriment.
I was diagnosed on March 12, 2013, and so did not even know what personal helps were available in Canada until shut down lacking a diagnosis to serve.
Youth schooling and social helps. Adult workplace and social helps. So 80% of a population having average to above-average intelligence remains unemployed or underemployed. AS youth left to flail through life undiagnosed, as I did. Is this fair?



ASPartOfMe
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10 Dec 2021, 7:44 pm

Did Lorna Wing think Asperger’s syndrome was distinct from autism?
Sam Fellowes Lecturer in Philosophy at Lancaster University.
He researches the philosophy of psychiatry and the history of autism.

Quote:
Lorna Wing (1928-2014) was a British psychiatrist who is heavily associated with introducing the diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome to the English speaking language. She is often taken as thinking that Asperger’s syndrome was a distinct diagnosis from autism, as opposed to being two different names for the same thing.

In 1981 Wing wrote a paper named “Asperger’s syndrome: a clinical account” (Wing 1981). In this paper she describes Asperger’s account (although she arguable significantly distorted Asperger’s account, interpreting it in line with Anglo-American notions of child development, seeing it as a developmental disorder and dismissing Asperger’s claim that it was a personality disorder as meaningless). She also describes how she has met multiple patients who fit what she takes as the diagnostic criteria. This was not, however, the first English language publication on Asperger’s syndrome. Whilst Asperger’s work in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s was largely only known within Germany and Japan it was mentioned within a small number of sources within English language psychiatry.

n later publications Wing gives further detail on views on Asperger’s syndrome and why she wrote her 1981 paper on it. “My original purpose, as someone just beginning to consider the nature of this condition, was to emphasize the strong possibility that the syndrome was part of the autistic spectrum and that there were no clear boundaries separating it from other autistic disorders. However, since then, various workers have tended to the belief that Asperger syndrome and autism are different conditions—quite the opposite of my intention” (2000, p.418 emphasis added)

She lists many multiple diagnoses which had been previously employed in the past, including Asperger’s (1944) syndrome, and writes that “It is, of course, possible that any one of these professionals might, by chance, have identified a specific syndrome unrelated to the others. It is equally, or perhaps more, likely that none of them did” (2000, p.421 emphasis added)

On a similar notes, she writes that “The most reasonable approach to classification is to recognize that although there may be sub-groups that are specific and separate at some level of discourse, at present these have not been identified” (2000, p.424). This shows she is sympathetic to the possibility that subtypes of the autistic spectrum might be possible but they have not yet been identified (including Asperger’s syndrome). Additionally, most of these quotes relate how the clinical picture of Asperger’s syndrome relates to the wider autistic spectrum. Wing also considered aspects beyond the clinical picture, such as causal claims and treatment responses. She writes that “I (Wing, 1998) listed the various levels at which differences could in theory be defined, ranging from the most fundamental level of original aetiology, via neuropathology and neuropsychology, to overt behavior and response to treatment. The conclusion was that there were no consistent and reproducible differences between Asperger syndrome and autism at any of these levels, however each was defined, apart from those that were the direct consequences of the criteria used” (2000, p.421).

What, however, was Wing’s motive in writing about Asperger’s syndrome and using Asperger’s syndrome in a diagnostic context? Her intension was desiring to employ a new diagnosis which did not have some of the associations of autism. In her 1981 paper she writes that “is there any justification for identifying Asperger’s syndrome as a separate entity? Until the aetiologies of such conditions are known, the term is helpful when explaining the problems of children and adults who have autistic features, but who talk grammatically and who are not socially aloof. Such people are perplexing to parents, teachers and work supervisors, who often cannot believe in a diagnosis of autism, which they equate with muteness and total social withdrawal. The use of a diagnostic term and reference to Asperger’s clinical descriptions help to convince the people concerned that there is a real problem involving subtle, but important, intellectual impairments, and needing careful management and education” (1981, p.124, emphasis added). She is more explicit on this point in later publications. “in our clinical work, my colleagues and I see many children and adolescents such as the ones Asperger described. Their parents will not consider a diagnosis of autism, but what they have heard about Asperger syndrome strikes a chord with them. We also see a small but steady flow of adults who come to seek advice for themselves because something they have read or heard makes them think they have Asperger syndrome. When the diagnosis is confirmed and the implications, positive as well as negative, are discussed, in almost all cases the individual concerned is immensely relieved to have an explanation of why he (or occasionally she) has felt different from others all his life. They are mostly willing to accept the relationship to autism when this is put into context… Such individuals would never have asked for a referral if the only label available had been autism as it is usually described (2000 p.419-420). She also writes in relation to her 1981 paper that “I agreed that the syndromes within the autistic continuum could not be clearly differentiated, but put forward two main reasons for the limited usefulness of the label Asperger’s syndrome in current clinical practice. The first, also emphasised by Szatmari et al. (1986), is that the diagnosis of autism is, in the minds of many lay people, synonymous with total absence of speech, social isolation, no eye contact, hyperactivity, agility and absorption in bodily stereotypies. There is a lack of understanding of the wide range of severity and the widely differing manifestation of the basic impairments. For this reason, parents without special experience tend to overlook or reject the idea of autism for their socially gauche, naive, talkative, clumsy child, or adult, who is intensely interested in the times of tides around the coast of Great Britain, the need for the abolition of British Summer Time, or the names and relationships of all characters who have ever appeared in a television soap opera, such as ‘Coronation Street’. The suggestion that their child may have an interesting condition called Asperger’s syndrome is much more acceptable. That this is closely related to autism and is in the autistic continuum can be explained gradually over the course of time, and the parents can then be introduced to their proper reference group of other families with similar problems through the National Autistic Society. The second reason is that professional workers without special experience of autism, including psychiatrists working with adults, also tend to have a narrow view of the clinical picture. Many of them think of autism as a condition of childhood and do not automatically include it as a possible diagnosis when seeing adults. The various recent papers on Asperger’s syndrome have attracted attention from adult as well as child psychiatrists because of its novelty value in English-language publications, whereas papers on autism would probably have been read only by people working with children. As a result of using the Asperger label there has been an increase in awareness that an autistic person of normal intelligence can be undiagnosed in childhood but be referred to a psychiatrist in adult life. Attention has also been drawn to the fact that such people can develop psychiatric illnesses and that the presence of the developmental disorder as well as the adult illness complicates treatment and management” (1981, p.171). She promoted the term Asperger’s syndrome simply because other terms had undesirable connotations.


Bolding=mine

Lorna Wing's PR trick worked beyond expected as it identified many who would never have been identified. For many in my and the OP's generation, it was a huge burst of self-esteem to find out our issues were not character flaws and the result of being weak people.

The downside is this confusion over it being completely separate conditions. At worst it has led on one side to Aspie elitism and supremacy and on the other hand, claims that instead of being "real autistics" we are attention seekers who should just try harder.


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11 Dec 2021, 12:56 am

-- HFAs delayed language development is never in ASs

I had a severe language development issue

-- ASs have at least average IQ which is not the rule in HFAs

I do.

-- ASs have fine motor skills problems which HFAs do not have to

I did, I was diagnosed with dyspraxia as a preteen

-- ASs have a Theory of Mind problem HFAs do not

I did but not badly as an autistic person

-- ASs generally have laser hyper-focus ability HFAs do not

No idea what this is

-- ASs normally cannot explain their social impairments while HFAs can

I couldn't as a kid. I didn't know I had any.

-- ASs tend to see social constructs HFAs and NTs cannot

What is social construct?

-- ASs tend to have intense and narrow interest(s) which HFAs do not

I never did either.

-- ASs tend to have a strong sense of right and wrong which HFAs do not

I know right from wrong and rules and laws made me know right from wrong. Enforcing rules made me know it was wrong. Just as long as you kept it black and white and spelled out the gray, i was okay. No double standards.

-- ASs tend to bluntly say whatever truth of theirs comes to mind which HFAs do not

I did too but knew to not say things if I knew it was mean or rude unless you asked for my opinion.


-- ASs tend to have compulsive needs to correct errors which HFAs do not


I corrected people as a kid, I don't anymore.


So im not an aspie but yet I'm not autistic either, just autism spectrum. :roll:


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