Are we young people ignorant of history ?

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chris1989
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08 Jan 2022, 1:29 pm

I seem to think that for example if young people see a statue of a controversial historical figure, it must be torn down because it should be utterly condemned for the bad things they did and and just ignore and disregard any good things they did and will just shout down and refuse to listen or debate the good stuff because it seems like in their minds the bad things outweighed the good things.



Sweetleaf
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08 Jan 2022, 2:05 pm

chris1989 wrote:
I seem to think that for example if young people see a statue of a controversial historical figure, it must be torn down because it should be utterly condemned for the bad things they did and and just ignore and disregard any good things they did and will just shout down and refuse to listen or debate the good stuff because it seems like in their minds the bad things outweighed the good things.


Statues of questionable historical figures belong in a museum where they can be viewed educationally. There isn't really any need to have publicly placed statues to honor people who played a role in defending slavery or massacring Native Americans.


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txfz1
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08 Jan 2022, 2:31 pm

No, ya'll ain't ignorant. You do try to compare historical morality to today's 'standard'. The Times They Are A-Changin' ~ Bob Dylan



Jakki
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08 Jan 2022, 2:40 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
chris1989 wrote:
I seem to think that for example if young people see a statue of a controversial historical figure, it must be torn down because it should be utterly condemned for the bad things they did and and just ignore and disregard any good things they did and will just shout down and refuse to listen or debate the good stuff because it seems like in their minds the bad things outweighed the good things.


Statues of questionable historical figures belong in a museum where they can be viewed educationally. There isn't really any need to have publicly placed statues to honor people who played a role in defending slavery or massacring Native Americans.


Auuugh, …. This is maddening … you have given substance to rumor …. Please read about the civil war ….
Slavery was not the dominant issue at the time for the war ! Although people want it that way cause it is convenient to their narrative. (The way they want the story told) The South did NOT want to industrialize … The South as a whole was rural farming business . This put the South at a great disadvantage … they did not have factories to manufacture anything but process farm products . No firearms , they had to be imported . Even shoes were in short supply . Uniforms were mainly rag tag stuff people put together .. There was a large entire battle over a SHOE factory . In occupied Southern territory . General Lee and General Grant were both trained at the same military College and both were Federal Officers . As the war took off Lee felt allegiance to the South to the State were he grew up .
Not allegiance to Slavery . Yet recently instead of putting his statue on horseback in a museum , it has been melted down for its bronze value . According to recent news blurbs . This man was giving up his position in the Federal forces to do what he felt was right ,in the war between the States . States rights was a import thing back then.
In spite of all the stuff that has been thrown at this younger generation , the idea of Slavery being the primary issue in the War between the States , Is just not right . Slavery actually helped build this nation,and was incidental to the Civil War.
If the USA Government as a whole actually thought that Slavery was the Big issue George Washington’s picture should have never ever been put on our basic unit of money, ‘ the dollar bill” he used Slaves on his plantation .
And this unit of money is used throughout the world to buy goods and do business .
And PLEASE DO NOT get the idea I am pro South or slavery . But people need to understand the facts that created our history.


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naturalplastic
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08 Jan 2022, 10:44 pm

Jakki wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
chris1989 wrote:
I seem to think that for example if young people see a statue of a controversial historical figure, it must be torn down because it should be utterly condemned for the bad things they did and and just ignore and disregard any good things they did and will just shout down and refuse to listen or debate the good stuff because it seems like in their minds the bad things outweighed the good things.


Statues of questionable historical figures belong in a museum where they can be viewed educationally. There isn't really any need to have publicly placed statues to honor people who played a role in defending slavery or massacring Native Americans.


Auuugh, …. This is maddening … you have given substance to rumor …. Please read about the civil war ….
Slavery was not the dominant issue at the time for the war ! Although people want it that way cause it is convenient to their narrative. (The way they want the story told) The South did NOT want to industrialize … The South as a whole was rural farming business . This put the South at a great disadvantage … they did not have factories to manufacture anything but process farm products . No firearms , they had to be imported . Even shoes were in short supply . Uniforms were mainly rag tag stuff people put together .. There was a large entire battle over a SHOE factory . In occupied Southern territory . General Lee and General Grant were both trained at the same military College and both were Federal Officers . As the war took off Lee felt allegiance to the South to the State were he grew up .
Not allegiance to Slavery . Yet recently instead of putting his statue on horseback in a museum , it has been melted down for its bronze value . According to recent news blurbs . This man was giving up his position in the Federal forces to do what he felt was right ,in the war between the States . States rights was a import thing back then.
In spite of all the stuff that has been thrown at this younger generation , the idea of Slavery being the primary issue in the War between the States , Is just not right . Slavery actually helped build this nation,and was incidental to the Civil War.
If the USA Government as a whole actually thought that Slavery was the Big issue George Washington’s picture should have never ever been put on our basic unit of money, ‘ the dollar bill” he used Slaves on his plantation .
And this unit of money is used throughout the world to buy goods and do business .
And PLEASE DO NOT get the idea I am pro South or slavery . But people need to understand the facts that created our history.

Ass-backward BS.

It was the South that rewrote history to deny the truth-the truth being that slavery WAS the issue.



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08 Jan 2022, 11:09 pm

It is well know that in all wars , that the victors write the history . Never the losers .


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txfz1
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08 Jan 2022, 11:27 pm

I think the most interesting tidbit about the civil war is Lincoln violated the constitution by blockading the south. States have the right to secede from the union even for stupid reasons such as slavery.



naturalplastic
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09 Jan 2022, 3:31 am

Jakki wrote:
It is well know that in all wars , that the victors write the history . Never the losers .


That is usually the case. Not always. The White south regained a lot of political power in congress and was more unified in its purpose of whitewashing its past, while the north moved on from it. And the South did in fact rewrite history despite being defeated on the battlefield.

If you followed your own advice to the original poster, and actually studied the civil war you would know that.

The secessionist declared that they were were seceding to keep their slaves. Said so in their own words.

If your contention is that the south did NOT secede because of slavery then what WAS the reason?

You said the "South didnt want to industrialize"? Are you claiming that the south seceded because...they were afraid that the newly elected Lincoln would....force them to have smokestack factories? Are you joking?



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09 Jan 2022, 4:26 am

Jakki wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
chris1989 wrote:
I seem to think that for example if young people see a statue of a controversial historical figure, it must be torn down because it should be utterly condemned for the bad things they did and and just ignore and disregard any good things they did and will just shout down and refuse to listen or debate the good stuff because it seems like in their minds the bad things outweighed the good things.


Statues of questionable historical figures belong in a museum where they can be viewed educationally. There isn't really any need to have publicly placed statues to honor people who played a role in defending slavery or massacring Native Americans.


Auuugh, …. This is maddening … you have given substance to rumor …. Please read about the civil war ….
Slavery was not the dominant issue at the time for the war ! Although people want it that way cause it is convenient to their narrative. (The way they want the story told) The South did NOT want to industrialize … The South as a whole was rural farming business . This put the South at a great disadvantage … they did not have factories to manufacture anything but process farm products . No firearms , they had to be imported . Even shoes were in short supply . Uniforms were mainly rag tag stuff people put together .. There was a large entire battle over a SHOE factory . In occupied Southern territory . General Lee and General Grant were both trained at the same military College and both were Federal Officers . As the war took off Lee felt allegiance to the South to the State were he grew up .
Not allegiance to Slavery . Yet recently instead of putting his statue on horseback in a museum , it has been melted down for its bronze value . According to recent news blurbs . This man was giving up his position in the Federal forces to do what he felt was right ,in the war between the States . States rights was a import thing back then.
In spite of all the stuff that has been thrown at this younger generation , the idea of Slavery being the primary issue in the War between the States , Is just not right . Slavery actually helped build this nation,and was incidental to the Civil War.
If the USA Government as a whole actually thought that Slavery was the Big issue George Washington’s picture should have never ever been put on our basic unit of money, ‘ the dollar bill” he used Slaves on his plantation .
And this unit of money is used throughout the world to buy goods and do business .
And PLEASE DO NOT get the idea I am pro South or slavery . But people need to understand the facts that created our history.


Your certain they weren't afraid of industrialization, because they didn't want to lose their way of life of living in a fancy manner while having people seen as less than human forced to be doing all the hard labor for them out on the fields?


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Jakki
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09 Jan 2022, 9:37 am

your modern day narratives , do not fit with the available facts at the time of the civil war .
Nor with the peoples reasons the died for what " they " believed was going to be their country at that time . Poor Southern dirt farmers and their sons did not join the South to preserve slavery .
Your misinformed writing gives the impression that everyone had slaves and lived in mansions ...
Get Real .


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naturalplastic
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09 Jan 2022, 9:57 am

Jakki wrote:
your modern day narratives , do not fit with the available facts at the time of the civil war .
Nor with the peoples reasons the died for what " they " believed was going to be their country at that time . Poor Southern dirt farmers and their sons did not join the South to preserve slavery .
Your misinformed writing gives the impression that everyone had slaves and lived in mansions ...
Get Real .


Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest said "if we cant keep our slaves then what are we fighting for?", and the preservation of slavery is actually stated as a reason for secession in many of the seceding states' constitutions. In their own words Southerners of that time stated that defending slavery was what they were fighting for. That is a fact.

And this is America were talking about. In Europe/Britain working class people are convinced that they will always be working class so they vote for Labor parties. In the US everyone thinks they are a future millionaire. The poor dirt farmers of the south all assumed that they would someday be rich enough to own slaves. And once the war was under way they also viewed the Union army as an invader and were triggered by the universal human instinct to defend your homeland-regardless of politics.

Some historians, like Shelby Foote will say that "either thing is an oversimplification. To say it was all about slavery, or that it had nothing to do with slavery". But even the reasons that were NOT slavery (like states' rights etc, cultural differences of the regions) still can large traced to the differing economic systems:free labor vs slaves. So both directly and indirectly the causes pretty much all trace back to slavery.



txfz1
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09 Jan 2022, 10:25 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Jakki wrote:
your modern day narratives , do not fit with the available facts at the time of the civil war .
Nor with the peoples reasons the died for what " they " believed was going to be their country at that time . Poor Southern dirt farmers and their sons did not join the South to preserve slavery .
Your misinformed writing gives the impression that everyone had slaves and lived in mansions ...
Get Real .


Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest said "if we cant keep our slaves then what are we fighting for?", and the preservation of slavery is actually stated as a reason for secession in many of the seceding states' constitutions. In their own words Southerners of that time stated that defending slavery was what they were fighting for. That is a fact.

And this is America were talking about. In Europe/Britain working class people are convinced that they will always be working class so they vote for Labor parties. In the US everyone thinks they are a future millionaire. The poor dirt farmers of the south all assumed that they would someday be rich enough to own slaves. And once the war was under way they also viewed the Union army as an invader and were triggered by the universal human instinct to defend your homeland-regardless of politics.

Some historians, like Shelby Foote will say that "either thing is an oversimplification. To say it was all about slavery, or that it had nothing to do with slavery". But even the reasons that were NOT slavery (like states' rights etc, cultural differences of the regions) still can large traced to the differing economic systems:free labor vs slaves. So both directly and indirectly the causes pretty much all trace back to slavery.


No. All of the poor dirt framers in the south didn't assume they would be rich and own slaves. Not everyone in the US thinks we are a future millionaire. You are applying today's tropes to 160 years ago.



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09 Jan 2022, 11:11 am

txfz1 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Jakki wrote:
your modern day narratives , do not fit with the available facts at the time of the civil war .
Nor with the peoples reasons the died for what " they " believed was going to be their country at that time . Poor Southern dirt farmers and their sons did not join the South to preserve slavery .
Your misinformed writing gives the impression that everyone had slaves and lived in mansions ...
Get Real .


Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest said "if we cant keep our slaves then what are we fighting for?", and the preservation of slavery is actually stated as a reason for secession in many of the seceding states' constitutions. In their own words Southerners of that time stated that defending slavery was what they were fighting for. That is a fact.

And this is America were talking about. In Europe/Britain working class people are convinced that they will always be working class so they vote for Labor parties. In the US everyone thinks they are a future millionaire. The poor dirt farmers of the south all assumed that they would someday be rich enough to own slaves. And once the war was under way they also viewed the Union army as an invader and were triggered by the universal human instinct to defend your homeland-regardless of politics.

Some historians, like Shelby Foote will say that "either thing is an oversimplification. To say it was all about slavery, or that it had nothing to do with slavery". But even the reasons that were NOT slavery (like states' rights etc, cultural differences of the regions) still can large traced to the differing economic systems:free labor vs slaves. So both directly and indirectly the causes pretty much all trace back to slavery.


No. All of the poor dirt framers in the south didn't assume they would be rich and own slaves. Not everyone in the US thinks we are a future millionaire. You are applying today's tropes to 160 years ago.


Youve got things backwards. The "trope" in question was inherited from the era were talking about, and from earlier. We modern Americans are all trapped in the thinking of our pioneer 18th and 19th Century ancestors. We moderns got that "trope" from them. Back then it worked to think that way because we still had the frontier, and a virgin continent to exploit. Today not so much because they closed down the frontier in 1889.



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09 Jan 2022, 11:59 am

you seem to want very badly to insist on Slavery as a issue here. Which is not the case .
It is about the ignorance of younger people about history . And your previous point points that out quite well .. You wish to compare values of the 1800s to that of the 1900s and base your "trope"
On that and then wish to carry it further forward to things that make up our values maybe even today . Those people who settled this Country , had no other aspirations then to be able too worship their choice of religion and start a new life in the west . There concerns were just to have a successful family and a parcel of ground to call their own. And where willing to do hardwork to get that. If anything these are more likely the values the Country had back then . And even a great deal of people today . But please do go on about slavery , cause it does seem to be what you wish to talk about ..


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09 Jan 2022, 3:39 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Youve got things backwards. The "trope" in question was inherited from the era were talking about, and from earlier. We modern Americans are all trapped in the thinking of our pioneer 18th and 19th Century ancestors. We moderns got that "trope" from them. Back then it worked to think that way because we still had the frontier, and a virgin continent to exploit. Today not so much because they closed down the frontier in 1889.



If true then slavery would not have been abolished in the US, it was abolished and times have changed. It's a two way street if you apply todays thinking to the past then the past thinking would apply today. It doesn't as I've seen changes in my lifetime.



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09 Jan 2022, 3:54 pm

txfz1 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:

Youve got things backwards. The "trope" in question was inherited from the era were talking about, and from earlier. We modern Americans are all trapped in the thinking of our pioneer 18th and 19th Century ancestors. We moderns got that "trope" from them. Back then it worked to think that way because we still had the frontier, and a virgin continent to exploit. Today not so much because they closed down the frontier in 1889.



If true then slavery would not have been abolished in the US, it was abolished and times have changed. It's a two way street if you apply todays thinking to the past then the past thinking would apply today. It doesn't as I've seen changes in my lifetime.


I am not applying any of "today's thinking" to the past. Thats what you're doing.