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Jakki
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25 May 2022, 7:23 am

Just got the one detail about this situation that is not being addressed ... calling this 18 yr old alumni a gunman. a hispanic older woman that knew the boy , possibly a housekeeper in his home:
.Interview approx 7 am KTLA news . this morning.
Said this boy was seriously bullied at this school on a ongoing basis . Now they are only addressing the gun he used .... looking for excuses to enact new gun laws . These people who are doing this
Are the real criminals , i feel . They are covering up the real issue . Once again it is not the tool
( eg. the gun). that is the cause. This is very frustrating .To see this on TV and having seen the one interview with the housekeeper is now being squashed . In favour of blaming the firearm .
Seems absolute madness , Interview with Biden states he is supporting more extreme gun control measures as a result of this shooting . Is this really a gun issue ?


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Last edited by Jakki on 25 May 2022, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 7:36 am

Jakki wrote:
Said this boy was seriously bullied at this school on a ongoing basis . ... Is this really a gun issue ?


Our society has decided that bullying is acceptable, decided by default, but still decided to tolerate, accept, and even celebrate it.

It is a gun issue and a number of other issues all wrapped up and entangled together.

:arrow: Some other things to look at:


https://millennialjournal.com/2019/09/2 ... -men-kill/

"
Why Young Men Kill
September 25, 2019 Guest Contributor

It’s time we started talking about our young men, about why they become mass shooters, serial bombers, and homegrown terrorists. If any other demographic had demonstrated such a dangerous capacity for violence, we certainly would have probed deeper by now.

98% of mass shooters are men—and most are disaffected young men, whether American, Syrian, French, or Belgian—and they belong to and support a variety of religions and creeds. And yet, we are mostly silent about the demographics surrounding this particularly male phenomenon.
...

Many of the murderers also seem to share a common biography across racial, religious, and geographic boundaries: they were young men who were unable to come to grips with a complex world that did not live up to their own cultural, political, and social expectations. After this, they latch onto some ideology, extremist interpretations of their religion, and/or misogyny to justify their violence.
...

But what leads men, particularly young men, to act out their frustration through violence?

One thing missing from modern American culture is the initiation rite for young men. In almost all cultures, it was understood that boys did not just “become” men; rather, there was an intentional process that they had to undergo and that had to be acknowledged by the elders of the community. Without it, they’d become self-absorbed and violent.
...

According to writer and Catholic priest Fr. Richard Rohr, the intention of any initiation process is to communicate five hard truths:

1. Life is hard.
2. You are not that important.
3. Your life is not about you.
4. You are not in control.
5. You are going to die.

The sacred experience of these truths would help the young boy transition into adulthood by desacralizing the self-absorbed ego, reintegrating him back into the community. If not initiated, the young man could become violent and narcissistic. Combine that with access to military grade weapons and extremist rhetoric, and you get a lethal combination.
...
"

Also,

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelp ... 10729.html
"
Referring to young men in his circumstances, he noted: “Somebody’s gonna die every day from gun violence, because this is how our mind is registered. We don’t know no other way out. We have no structure.”
"


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Last edited by kitesandtrainsandcats on 25 May 2022, 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

temp1234
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25 May 2022, 7:39 am

Thank you, Jakki, for sharing that piece of info. While the gun issue still exists, there is a lot bigger issue here. Those that bully and those that condone bullies are the real criminals. While I don't support killing, I feel sympathy towards the shooter. This is not the only instance where I felt in this way. Makes me wonder why people are so lenient on bullies.



magz
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25 May 2022, 7:46 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
It is a gun issue and a number of other issues all wrapped up and entangled together.
Indeed.

I once wondered why there are no school shootings here - and decided that every society has frustrated teenagers, but here, the frustrated teenagers buy/steal from their parents vodka and get wasted. Still not good but less innocent victims.

In the US, access to guns seems easier than access to vodka. And, possibly, frustrated teenagers really have less options to deal with their frustration in less destructive ways?


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 7:59 am

A couple things on bullying;

https://extension.umn.edu/bullying-and- ... nsequences
"
Because youth typically do not bully others in front of adults, teachers and parents are often unaware of bullying. As a result, they rarely step in to stop bullies or to help children cope with being bullied.
...
Some experts suggest that changing the attitudes and involvement of bystanders could have the biggest impact on bullies. Bystanders are kids who witness but are not victims of bullying. Since bullies love an audience, a bystander's encouragement or toleration of the bully will make the bully stronger. Training through role-playing can help youth recognize a potentially harmful situation and do something positive. By simply saying, "That's not cool," a bystander can stop a bully's activities.

Youth need to know that taking a stand for what is right can be very effective. Strive to turn your teen into a catalyst for change. Explain the difference between tattling and telling. Tattling is when you report something just to get someone in trouble. Telling is when you report that you or someone else is in danger.
"

and

https://www.eaglenews.ph/bullying-why-w ... lerate-it/
"
(Young Voices Speak is eaglenews.ph’s blank space for the youth to share their opinions, views, and perspective on any topic, issue, or matter)

QUEZON City, Philippines – Bullying. The problem has been existing for a long time now. Disturbingly, instances of bullying have become more frequent nowadays because of the creation of new media like the internet and text messaging.
...
The school is the second home of every student. But how can it be called a home if there is no comfort? Bullying has now become a trend, especially in schools, to gain popularity.
"

So, it looks like one thing society can do to reduce bullying is to reduce the value of being popular within a society.
Not gonna happen among humans.
Something else needs to be found.


and

https://naples.floridaweekly.com/articl ... tolerated/

"
We have also become too familiar with sad and shocking news reports of murder/suicides that stem from psychological trauma related to bullying. Bullying is believed to have played a role in the recent Ohio school shooting that killed three people. [February 27, 2012]

The long-range effects of bullying are serious and demand our attention. As a community, we must create an environment that promotes peaceful conflict resolution and rewards acts of conscious kindness.
"

That was a decade ago, and the attention which was given and the things which were changed are ...?


and

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -and-abuse
"
A lot of the problem is due to how we think about things. We use mental shortcuts, what psychologists call “heuristics,” to aid us in our thinking. We also have a tendency to expend as little cognitive energy as possible trying to figure things out. As a result of this “cognitive laziness,” we often don’t investigate when we suspect that bullying is taking place (“They are just horsing around”).

Sometimes we just don’t recognize the signs of bullying or we form favorable initial impressions of a bully, and then discount when we observe them bullying or harassing someone. I’ve termed this the “Eddie Haskell Effect”—the bully, who appears nice to outsiders, bullies when not being observed, and complaints about the bully are discounted (“It can’t be Eddie!”).
"


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Fnord
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25 May 2022, 8:09 am

Do we really need more than one thread addressing the same subject?

If not, can this thread be merged with
 This Other Thread ?



magz
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25 May 2022, 8:10 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Some experts suggest that changing the attitudes and involvement of bystanders could have the biggest impact on bullies. Bystanders are kids who witness but are not victims of bullying. Since bullies love an audience, a bystander's encouragement or toleration of the bully will make the bully stronger. Training through role-playing can help youth recognize a potentially harmful situation and do something positive. By simply saying, "That's not cool," a bystander can stop a bully's activities.
That's actually encouraged in my culture. Taking side of the victim is seen as noble.


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kraftiekortie
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25 May 2022, 8:11 am

Here, too, in the US.

Good Samaritans are very much admired here.



magz
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25 May 2022, 8:11 am

Fnord wrote:
Do we really need more than one thread addressing the same subject?

If not, can this thread be merged with
 This Other Thread ?

Maybe, if the OP wants to focus on adressing bullying vs gun control, we should rename this topic to make it clear.
If not, you're right.


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Fnord
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25 May 2022, 8:14 am

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Do we really need more than one thread addressing the same subject?  If not, can this thread be merged with  This Other Thread ?
Maybe, if the OP wants to focus on adressing bullying vs gun control, we should rename this topic to make it clear.  If not, you're right.
Thanks!

Jakki?



magz
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25 May 2022, 8:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Here, too, in the US.

Good Samaritans are very much admired here.
And attacking the weaker is seen as a disgrace. Only cowards do it.
Of course, there are still unpopular kids, social rejection, etc. - but it has to take subtler forms and this limits bullies' numbers and options.


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 8:18 am

magz wrote:
And, possibly, frustrated teenagers really have less options to deal with their frustration in less destructive ways?


It would help if fewer adults and authorities were ignorant as*holes: go to them with bullying and you get, "Oh, they are just teasing you because they like you." what else can you do but start killing people to get the point across? And you will fail there too because of the adults and authorities who politicize you. And then you decide, "Nothing I do matters. I do not matter. I guess I'll kill me. And even that will not matter in the end."


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magz
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25 May 2022, 8:22 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
magz wrote:
And, possibly, frustrated teenagers really have less options to deal with their frustration in less destructive ways?


It would help if fewer adults and authorities were ignorant as*holes: go to them with bullying and you get, "Oh, they are just teasing you because they like you."
I wonder if those adults don't remember when they were young?

Last time my daughter came to me to complain about mild verbal bullying, I said - "Now you've got a proof she's stupid."
"They are stupid, not me" was how I survived, so I try to teach my daughters this tactics.


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Fnord
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25 May 2022, 8:25 am

The last time I went to my parents about bullies at school, my mom said, "Knocked him on his ass!"

My dad said, "And make sure he doesn't get up right away."

So I did.

That put an end to the physical bullying, but not the snide comments and verbal attacks.

(And never once did the use of firearms cross my mind.)



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25 May 2022, 9:08 am

The unfortunate thing is that "being bullied" seems to be one of the catalysts which drives many of these people to be radicalized further (i.e., by theories presented on the Internet, in books, and within certain organizations which preach nonsense).

I was bullied as a youngster. I was chased, a few times, by as many as 20 kids who wanted to beat my butt. I was verbally bullied as well, abused sexually a couple of times. Nobody did anything about it; I was left to my own devices.

Still, I never thought about getting a gun and exacting "revenge" upon those who bullied me. The key, to me, is to teach children who are bullied self-worth. That they are viable people. And present evidence to them that they are viable people, and should not feel they deserved this treatment.



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25 May 2022, 9:14 am

magz wrote:
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
It is a gun issue and a number of other issues all wrapped up and entangled together.
Indeed.

I once wondered why there are no school shootings here - and decided that every society has frustrated teenagers, but here, the frustrated teenagers buy/steal from their parents vodka and get wasted. Still not good but less innocent victims.

In the US, access to guns seems easier than access to vodka. And, possibly, frustrated teenagers really have less options to deal with their frustration in less destructive ways?


Yup, this. Still, easy access to guns IS a big issue. Would these people act out if they didn't get their hands on guns? Most likely yes, but would as many innocent people die on those occasions if guns weren't involved? Most likely no.

The gun problem could be made significantly smaller by setting new laws and that would take effect immediately, so I'd say that controlling the access to guns, which can be done fast, should be done first and then people should go for the time taking job of changing attitudes and creating a system that takes better care of people's mental health.