There was never a global flood like in Noah story.

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Matrix Glitch
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24 May 2022, 3:53 am

klanka wrote:
I thought the dinosaurs died off before the flood?
The flood was only a few thousand years ago, whereas the dinosaurs were millions of years ago.


God is capable of literally mind controlling people so putting animals into hibernation is nothing....although they were probably not in hibernation because they were being fed. Noah was told to pack food for them.(Genesis 6:21)

The Israelites were wandering around for forty years and their sandals didnt wear out (God himself pointed that out), that was a subtle miracle. I would imagine those type of subtle miracles happened on the ark.


Some think dinosaurs others don't. But if dinosaurs are eliminated, then that still leaves elephants and giraffes et al.



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24 May 2022, 4:11 am

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naturalplastic
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24 May 2022, 6:02 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
It depends on whether it's interpreted as the entire planet or the known world. How big was the known world in that region at the time? Would they have known about North and South American and Australia etc?
.


Bull feathers!

If youre a Fundamentalist then youre not supposed to "interpret" it.

If the Bible says "it covered the world" then it covered the entire planet. If the Bible says it submerged every mountain then it was deep enough to drown Everest. And if the Bible says Noah saved two members of every species then that means two of every species...including the dinosaurs! Noah had to have wrangled dinosaurs, and save them from extinction so that they still must have lived (alongside mankind) after the 2300 BC Biblical flood. Thats what the "Ark Experience" theme park and museum are all about.
========

But obviously that IS a distinct possibilty that has been proposed by many with a less Biblically literal way of thinking. That the Biblical Flood was based upon a memory of an actual flood that effected the region of Mesopotamia.

We know that the Flood in Genisis is derived from the older flood myths of the Sumerians and Babylonians that involved Gilgamesh. Might have inundated the "World" as they knew it. But like most primitive peoples "the world" was the Delaware sized piece of land that their tribe, and its immediate neighbors lived on.


Christianity is much older than the stereotypical "fundamentalist" you're referring to. It's another one of those broad generalizations that a Christian is a ignorant backwards backwoods hayseed.

The Bible should be interpreted in a way that reflects the people it was written to at the time it was written. That holds true of all ancient writings.

Genesis is the first written account of the flood. But it was most likely known orally and in greater detail way before that. So I think other accounts tend to verify rather than dismiss the possibility of it having been an actual event.

Dude ...you are SO out of it that you dont know which way is up. Youre attacking people who agree with you (like me), and claim to agree with folks who would have you burned at the stake as a heretic for the views youre expressing in your post.

Part of the problem is that youre not an American, and are not familiar with all of the shades of Protestantism (mainstream, to Fundamentalist, Pentacostal, Evangelical).

The term "Fundamentalist" is NOT a derogatory term for "all Christians". It is not derogatory at all. .

It is the proper term for a certain subset of Christians. Its what they have always called themselves. The movement started around 1900. They are folks who adhere to "the fundamentals". To strictly adhereing to scripture. Literal interpretation of scripture- taking each word as being literally historically true. There is also a term "Biblical Literalism". Fundies are essential the same thing as "Biblical Literalists". Everything the Bible says is literally historically true according to that subset of Christians.

Ken Haim built a whole big theme park with a building built as a life sized model of the Ark that depicts humans living alongside dinosaurs (like the Flintstones).

By the way...you are wrong that Genisis is "the first written record of the Flood". Written records of the Hebrew Bible only go back to 700 BC. References in Mesopotamian cuniform texts to the Sumerian flood myth of Gilgamesh. go back to 2800 BC. Sorry. The Mesopotamian story is much older. The Bible plagarized it. Not the other way around. Thats the one thing you said in your post that I actually disagree with. The rest of your post are things that you should be saying to Ken Haim. And not to me.

Also Biblical Literalism is not confined to Christians. Orthodox Jews can be just as rabidly literalist in their interpretation as any Gentile Evangelical Protestant. Muslims (who also read the Old Testament) can be assumed to be Biblical literalists, and Young Earth Creationists.

=============

If youre not a Biblical Literalist, or a Fundamentalist, (you might be Christian, or you might secular/atheist or whatever) then obviously then you dont have to adhere to taking each word of the Bible literally. And its free for interpretation.

Then you can look at the Bible the way Henrich Schleman looked at the Greek myth of Trojan War - as a document that may have destorted history buried in all of the myth. Schleman used Homer as a guide to his amatuer archeology in the late 19th Century, and to shock of the experts actually found the ruins of Troy. So one might well find evidence of an actual flood that was not a literal world flood, but a regional flood in Mesopotamia that inspired the myths later written down- including that in the Old Testament.



naturalplastic
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24 May 2022, 6:19 am

klanka wrote:
I thought the dinosaurs died off before the flood?
The flood was only a few thousand years ago, whereas the dinosaurs were millions of years ago.

.


Problem number one. Yes, the King James says that the Flood was 2300 BC, while science says the Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. But the problem is that the Bible also says the whole Universe began in 4004 BC. So there could not have been any "60 million years ago". Nothing could have existed that long ago.



Problem number two. There are Fundamentalists who try to reconcile science and the Bible by speculating that Dinosaurs existed, but that they went extinct...in Noah's Flood. A neat and clean storyline. And to me that makes sense. (The whole Noah story is beyond ridiculous, but at least having the dinosaurs die in the Flood would have a certain internal logic).

But...thats wrong! If you are a true Biblical literalists like Ken Haim (founder of the Ark Experience). If you REALLY take the Bible literally it doesnt say that Noah left some creatures to drown and saved others. He save two of each kind of everything. So dinosaur not only existed, but they survived the flood, and continued to exist in the post 2300 BC post flood world alongside humans! So Noah must have wrangled pairs of T-Rexes, and some Brontos, and gotten them aboard the Ark.



IsabellaLinton
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24 May 2022, 8:07 am

HighLlama wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Anyone here ever heard of a metaphor?


No, but they've heard of lectures.



I prefer seminars. ^
Nice to see you, HL.



klanka
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26 May 2022, 2:59 am

naturalplastic wrote:
klanka wrote:
I thought the dinosaurs died off before the flood?
The flood was only a few thousand years ago, whereas the dinosaurs were millions of years ago.

.


Problem number one. Yes, the King James says that the Flood was 2300 BC, while science says the Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. But the problem is that the Bible also says the whole Universe began in 4004 BC. So there could not have been any "60 million years ago". Nothing could have existed that long ago.



Problem number two. There are Fundamentalists who try to reconcile science and the Bible by speculating that Dinosaurs existed, but that they went extinct...in Noah's Flood. A neat and clean storyline. And to me that makes sense. (The whole Noah story is beyond ridiculous, but at least having the dinosaurs die in the Flood would have a certain internal logic).

But...thats wrong! If you are a true Biblical literalists like Ken Haim (founder of the Ark Experience). If you REALLY take the Bible literally it doesnt say that Noah left some creatures to drown and saved others. He save two of each kind of everything. So dinosaur not only existed, but they survived the flood, and continued to exist in the post 2300 BC post flood world alongside humans! So Noah must have wrangled pairs of T-Rexes, and some Brontos, and gotten them aboard the Ark.


Well, when someone becomes a Christian they receive the holy spirit. Its like spiritual possession but its a good beneficial spirit...not an evil one like in the exorcist.
When a Christian dies God looks at the indwelling holy spirit instead of your actual actions on earth and sends us to heaven based on that.

So, along with this comes spiritual gifts. Some have the gift of prophecy, miracles healing and faith.

I have the gift of faith so I'm unable to disbelieve the Bible. So I would have to go with young earth and that dinosaurs didn't exist.



naturalplastic
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26 May 2022, 3:29 am

klanka wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
klanka wrote:
I thought the dinosaurs died off before the flood?
The flood was only a few thousand years ago, whereas the dinosaurs were millions of years ago.

.


Problem number one. Yes, the King James says that the Flood was 2300 BC, while science says the Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. But the problem is that the Bible also says the whole Universe began in 4004 BC. So there could not have been any "60 million years ago". Nothing could have existed that long ago.



Problem number two. There are Fundamentalists who try to reconcile science and the Bible by speculating that Dinosaurs existed, but that they went extinct...in Noah's Flood. A neat and clean storyline. And to me that makes sense. (The whole Noah story is beyond ridiculous, but at least having the dinosaurs die in the Flood would have a certain internal logic).

But...thats wrong! If you are a true Biblical literalists like Ken Haim (founder of the Ark Experience). If you REALLY take the Bible literally it doesnt say that Noah left some creatures to drown and saved others. He save two of each kind of everything. So dinosaur not only existed, but they survived the flood, and continued to exist in the post 2300 BC post flood world alongside humans! So Noah must have wrangled pairs of T-Rexes, and some Brontos, and gotten them aboard the Ark.


Well, when someone becomes a Christian they receive the holy spirit. Its like spiritual possession but its a good beneficial spirit...not an evil one like in the exorcist.
When a Christian dies God looks at the indwelling holy spirit instead of your actual actions on earth and sends us to heaven based on that.

So, along with this comes spiritual gifts. Some have the gift of prophecy, miracles healing and faith.

I have the gift of faith so I'm unable to disbelieve the Bible. So I would have to go with young earth and that dinosaurs didn't exist.


Ok. And indeed dispensing with believing in dinosaurs makes it all simpler. Dinosaurs didnt exist in the first place. So they neither drowned in the Flood, nor did they survive the Flood. So you dont have to do the mental gymnastics that Ken Haim does of trying to explain how Noah and his family were able to wrangle dinosaurs onto the Ark.

And you dont need do this current thing Fundies do of claiming that dinosaurs were still around as late as Elizabethan times, and were called "dragons" by the humans who...lived alongside them. There are Bible museums that show dinosaurs wearing saddles, and being ridden by humans.

But then you still have to explain all of those dinosaur fossils theyve been finding in the ground for the last two hundred years, and how those fossils imply that something big got left out of the Bible.



klanka
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26 May 2022, 4:26 am

There was a similar disagreement about flat earth, I researched NASA etc. and found it to be fake e.g. why hasnt there been a moon landing since 1972 by any country :D
So that supports the bible...so I just assumed the dinosaur thing to be along the same lines. I should research the issue though.



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26 May 2022, 4:26 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
It depends on whether it's interpreted as the entire planet or the known world. How big was the known world in that region at the time? Would they have known about North and South American and Australia etc?
.


Bull feathers!

If youre a Fundamentalist then youre not supposed to "interpret" it.

If the Bible says "it covered the world" then it covered the entire planet. If the Bible says it submerged every mountain then it was deep enough to drown Everest. And if the Bible says Noah saved two members of every species then that means two of every species...including the dinosaurs! Noah had to have wrangled dinosaurs, and save them from extinction so that they still must have lived (alongside mankind) after the 2300 BC Biblical flood. Thats what the "Ark Experience" theme park and museum are all about.
========

But obviously that IS a distinct possibilty that has been proposed by many with a less Biblically literal way of thinking. That the Biblical Flood was based upon a memory of an actual flood that effected the region of Mesopotamia.

We know that the Flood in Genisis is derived from the older flood myths of the Sumerians and Babylonians that involved Gilgamesh. Might have inundated the "World" as they knew it. But like most primitive peoples "the world" was the Delaware sized piece of land that their tribe, and its immediate neighbors lived on.


Christianity is much older than the stereotypical "fundamentalist" you're referring to. It's another one of those broad generalizations that a Christian is a ignorant backwards backwoods hayseed.

The Bible should be interpreted in a way that reflects the people it was written to at the time it was written. That holds true of all ancient writings.

Genesis is the first written account of the flood. But it was most likely known orally and in greater detail way before that. So I think other accounts tend to verify rather than dismiss the possibility of it having been an actual event.

Dude ...you are SO out of it that you dont know which way is up. Youre attacking people who agree with you (like me), and claim to agree with folks who would have you burned at the stake as a heretic for the views youre expressing in your post.

Part of the problem is that youre not an American, and are not familiar with all of the shades of Protestantism (mainstream, to Fundamentalist, Pentacostal, Evangelical).


Lol. Quite wrong on all counts.

naturalplastic wrote:
The term "Fundamentalist" is NOT a derogatory term for "all Christians". It is not derogatory at all.
It is the proper term for a certain subset of Christians. Its what they have always called themselves. The movement started around 1900. They are folks who adhere to "the fundamentals". To strictly adhereing to scripture. Literal interpretation of scripture- taking each word as being literally historically true. There is also a term "Biblical Literalism". Fundies are essential the same thing as "Biblical Literalists". Everything the Bible says is literally historically true according to that subset of Christians.

Ken Haim built a whole big theme park with a building built as a life sized model of the Ark that depicts humans living alongside dinosaurs (like the Flintstones).

By the way...you are wrong that Genisis is "the first written record of the Flood". Written records of the Hebrew Bible only go back to 700 BC.
References in Mesopotamian cuniform texts to the Sumerian flood myth of Gilgamesh. go back to 2800 BC. Sorry. The Mesopotamian story is much older. The Bible plagarized it. Not the other way around. Thats the one thing you said in your post that I actually disagree with. The rest of your post are things that you should be saying to Ken Haim. And not to me.


I meant the first written account among Hebrews. Before Moses wrote it down, it was most likely told orally since it happened.

naturalplastic wrote:
Also Biblical Literalism is not confined to Christians. Orthodox Jews can be just as rabidly literalist in their interpretation as any Gentile Evangelical Protestant. Muslims (who also read the Old Testament) can be assumed to be Biblical literalists, and Young Earth Creationists.

=============

If youre not a Biblical Literalist, or a Fundamentalist, (you might be Christian, or you might secular/atheist or whatever) then obviously then you dont have to adhere to taking each word of the Bible literally. And its free for interpretation.


Sola Scriptura (one of the five solas) came about during the Protestant reformation.

naturalplastic wrote:
Then you can look at the Bible the way Henrich Schleman looked at the Greek myth of Trojan War - as a document that may have destorted history buried in all of the myth. Schleman used Homer as a guide to his amatuer archeology in the late 19th Century, and to shock of the experts actually found the ruins of Troy. So one might well find evidence of an actual flood that was not a literal world flood, but a regional flood in Mesopotamia that inspired the myths later written down- including that in the Old Testament.


I tend to look at the Bible the way I learned from Christian historians, scholars and theologians. Some of which are not Protestant. It all started in a sunday school in Sherman Oaks, California back in 1968.



klanka
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26 May 2022, 4:31 am

It's possible that I shouldn't believe the bible literally in all cases but just believe the spirit of what it is saying...matters concerning the holy spirit etc.

I don't think the bible supports the existence of dinosaurs at all. Cos it mentions the large animals boarding the ark, but neglected to mention the 150 foot killer lizard creature?? lol

I have yet to properly look into the dinosaur issue due in part to laziness and just being satisfied with my beliefs.

I'm satisfied with my beliefs because I've seen miracles, one being that a Christian prophet got a message from God that I should start eating salt because my hydration is bad. Then when I followed the advice I didnt have frequent urination anymore because my body was able to hold water. So that just confirmed my beliefs.

Another time, the same prophet person was supposed to do a bible study on Zoom on her phone, she had no access to a charger and her phone was on zero percent. When it came time for the bible study it was on something like 60% charge, we were nowhere near a working powersocket either.
I witnessed that one myself cos I was 'in charge' of charging her phone for a few days, so I was very familiar with it.
It made a certain sound when it ran out of battery and shut down. It made that noise, about an hour before the bible study....and I saw the percent meter on the phone say a percentage that was less than ten just before it shut down. Then I personally was handling her phone and then it just said around 60% charge later 8O

Her phone charged at about 1% every three minutes so it should have taken 3 hours to charge to 60% , it shutdown about an hour before the bible study, so even if it was plugged into the mains (which it wasnt) it still would have been impossible to have 60% :D



Last edited by klanka on 26 May 2022, 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matrix Glitch
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26 May 2022, 4:40 am

klanka wrote:
It's possible that I shouldn't believe the bible literally in all cases but just believe the spirit of what it is saying...matters concerning the holy spirit etc.

I don't think the bible supports the existence of dinosaurs at all. Cos it mentions the large animals boarding the ark, but neglected to mention the 150 foot killer lizard creature?? lol

I have yet to properly look into the dinosaur issue due in part to laziness and just being satisfied with my beliefs.

I'm satisfied with my beliefs because I've seen miracles, one being that a Christian prophet got a message from God that I should start eating salt because my hydration is bad. Then when I followed the advice I didnt have frequent urination anymore because my body was able to hold water. So that just confirmed my beliefs.


The only possible Biblical support for dinosaurs is found in the Book of Job (the oldest book of the Bible), where the "Behemoth" and the "Leviathan" are spoken of.



klanka
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26 May 2022, 4:50 am

ah yes I forgot about those, the leviathan thingy was a sea creature so that would not have had to go on the ark. There's barely a mention of the behemoth, it's only a singular creature or species so doesn't fit very well with dinosaurs...it would be a stretch..

another thing is that when the bible says 'all' it doesnt always mean that. I think in hebrew 'all' means 'most' like when 'all' the men in the town did something in the bible it has to be most. So maybe only most creatures made it onto the ark.



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26 May 2022, 5:14 am

Regarding dinosaurs many believe in the "gap theory". Basically that there was a first creation, and then that Earth was made void. This is also known as "the First Earth Age" which was when the dinosaurs existed.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:1-2

Some believe verse 2 should be translated as "Now the earth became formless and empty".



klanka
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26 May 2022, 5:32 am

ah yes we only think the earth is young because adam's fall was provably a few thousand years ago



naturalplastic
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26 May 2022, 5:39 am

x



Last edited by naturalplastic on 26 May 2022, 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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26 May 2022, 5:45 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Regarding dinosaurs many believe in the "gap theory". Basically that there was a first creation, and then that Earth was made void. This is also known as "the First Earth Age" which was when the dinosaurs existed.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:1-2

Some believe verse 2 should be translated as "Now the earth became formless and empty".


Which would be nonsense. Its logical that heaven and earth would start out disorganized, and then god would give it "form". Not that he (1) gave it form, and then (2) took form away, and then (3) gave it form again. And did that all on the first day of Creation.

And if youre going postulate one little mistranslation into one word, and then project five billion years of geological history being concealed into that one word then...youre doing such a vast amount of free interpretation that you might as will admit to the truth...that you dont take the Bible literally.

Not saying that you cant adhere to the religion. Just that you cant take the Bible literally.