Hmm, to gamble on it or nah maybe not?

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goldfish21
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03 Dec 2022, 12:09 am

r00tb33r wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Even 30mpg, while a bit higher fuel cost than my car due to the price of diesel, is not a wash compared to paying for gasoline in a different van and getting 12-20mpg.

Start driving. Then you can let us know how it's going.

Some people just want to be different, I get it. If Toyota believed they could sell this here and there was a buyer for it they would. But the factors just aren't in its favor.

You're not going to get 30. https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/hiace
The margin of error is high due to low sample because it's a rare model, but the clear picture is that you expect mid-20s at best, but at the cost of diesel that's actually not attractive at all.

The better question is how high in the 20s you can get it. But at that point you've certainly missed the fuel budget and have to start to wonder if all that weirdness was ever worth it. Steering on the wrong side, uncomfortable cab-over seating, lack of maintenance options for an out-of-market vehicle, starts harder when it's cold out, the noise from the diesel engine, the smell, and then there's the fact it's just not nice to look at.


Started driving. Spent about 20 mins idling tonight just to keep the heat on while I was making some phone calls - obvi that’s 0mpg and will hurt the overall for the tank. But at least driving time has been driving time - no traffic jams sitting idle, just driving.

I bet I get better than you think I will. I think I’d have to do all city stop and go driving and really stomp on the accelerator to get as crappy of mileage as you’re predicting.

Those figures on fuelly are mostly gassers with automatic transmissions and full interiors. Big difference. This is a 2.5l turbo diesel with a 5spd manual and a tuning box to reduce fuel consumption.

I did add a couple hundred pounds of clay drain tiles in the very back tdy tho. Salvaged them to use at the beach for fires and diverting water. Might just leave them in the very back for traction now that we have snow. Also have the other set of wheels & tires back there at the moment, too, so probably 300-350lbs of weight.

Picked up an oil filter, needs an oil change - usually fuel economy improves a bit with a fresh oil change, too.

Still bet I get better than you’re predicting, but maybe not quite as good as the all highway 6.1L/100k the previous owner got -> as I’m not doing all highway and I am idling some.

They’re sold in Japan, Thailand, Australia/NZ, a slightly different version in the UK etc. Lots of cars are sold all over the place that aren’t sold in the USA - especially smaller vehicles as Americans tend to buy big trucks & SUV’s.

Looks are subjective. I Like the look/shape. The crappy paint on the hood not so much but w/e it’s cheaper for a reason.


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r00tb33r
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03 Dec 2022, 12:23 am

They're sold in Japan and UK because both have strict tax brackets by vehicle parameters like engine displacement and exterior dimensions. This is not true in US, and likely also not true in Canada, hence why a vehicle built for foreign tax code makes no sense in this market. This is why it isn't sold here. We have nice vehicles here that are built without those limitations.

Should you need a new windshield it's going to be a headache... And that's not even a serious thing.


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goldfish21
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03 Dec 2022, 1:39 am

r00tb33r wrote:
They're sold in Japan and UK because both have strict tax brackets by vehicle parameters like engine displacement and exterior dimensions. This is not true in US, and likely also not true in Canada, hence why a vehicle built for foreign tax code makes no sense in this market. This is why it isn't sold here. We have nice vehicles here that are built without those limitations.

Should you need a new windshield it's going to be a headache... And that's not even a serious thing.


So what if we don't have as strict of requirements for those things ? Doesn't mean I don't benefit from fuel efficiency & compact size for parking. Pretty sure if I leave the rear bench seat out I can fit 4x8 sheets inside laying down, too. Haven't measured or tried yet.

Even if Canadian regulations don't require small displacement high efficiency engines, why wouldn't I want one? :? Why would I want to buy some large American van/truck that takes 2-3x the fuel? Fuel is very expensive. Why would I want to drop a G note+/month on gas when I can drive one of these things ? That's why I've been driving a Dodge Dart 4cyl 6mt for the last almost 6 years instead of an F-150 or van etc - I like having money for things like food, housing, savings etc instead of just putting it all in a gas tank for no added value reason. Just because we have vehicles built without those limitations doesn't mean they're wise choices.. hmm, let's see, $500-600/mo for fuel, or $1000-1400+/mo for fuel... so difficult to determine which is the wiser choice.

Besides all that, I have a rather nice penis and don't need to compensate for anything. 8)


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r00tb33r
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03 Dec 2022, 2:03 am

I think you fundamentally don't understand physics. Fuel economy is not proportional to engine displacement within the same vehicle model. It takes the same amount of energy to move it along. Parasitic losses of a larger engine are not that much.

And those dimensional restrictions of tax code result in sub-optimal aerodynamics. They are artificial arbitrary limits that have no correlation with efficiency.

In US there was an exodus of commercial drivers who refused to drive cab-over trucks due to extreme discomfort, configurations resulting from total truck length limit in the highway code. It was repealed in the 80s and since then cab-over trucks disappeared in US completely. They are not wanted and thus not made and not sold.


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Last edited by r00tb33r on 03 Dec 2022, 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

goldfish21
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03 Dec 2022, 2:18 am

r00tb33r wrote:
I think you fundamentally don't understand physics. Fuel economy is not proportional to engine displacement within the same vehicle model. It takes the same amount of energy to move it along. Parasitic losses of a larger engine are not that much.

And those dimensional restrictions of tax code result in sub-optimal aerodynamics.

In US there was an exodus of commercial drivers who refused to drive cab-over trucks due to extreme discomfort, configurations resulting from total truck length limit in the highway code. It was repealed in the 80s and since then cab-over trucks disappeared in US completely. They are not wanted and thus not made and not sold.


It seems you don't know much about turbo diesels or tuning them.

Go have a look at the fuel economy stats for gasoline & diesel powered volkswagen golfs. Same same Exact same cars, different power plants, dramatically different fuel economy stats.

Mebe the average American truck driver is too obese to fit in a cabover truck? Seems plausible.


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r00tb33r
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03 Dec 2022, 2:53 am

:lol: drivers just don't like sitting directly on top of the axle.

But yes, I'm very familiar with diesel Volkswagen, it is unpopular because here they are financially a wash for no benefits gained. For consumers here it's a dead horse unworthy of more beating. It's a novelty for the few that just want to be different. For a while I was considering a Mercedes CDI myself, having no expectations of fuel economy and just somewhat decent torque and the sheer coolness factor. I had no delusions about it being better than everything else. Maybe I'll buy one, but without expectations that it'll be an economically sensible choice. It's a toy.

They are desirable in Europe where diesel prices are subsidized.

You're lucky it's old enough not to need urea in the emissions control. Things have changed for the worse in terms of regulations for diesels. Newer Toyota diesels have it...
The whole Volkswagen dieselgate was all about delivering performance that wouldn't otherwise be possible without urea under the emissions regulations.

Look. You like it. Just enjoy it. It's just not the spacecraft that runs on pixie dust that you make it out to be.

Remember, you can easily check your perception by realizing that you are not outsmarting Toyota Motor Company or the rest of the consumer market for vans. If it made sense it would be sold here or there. It just doesn't work here the way it works in other markets.

I think I overstayed here a bit.

You should make a blog thread dedicated to your interior project. That would actually be interesting to see.


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03 Dec 2022, 3:05 am

VW diesels aren't a wash. Tons of people rocking those things for years stacking cash they're not putting it their gas tanks. This is math, not bias.

What do you mean it doesn't work here like it works in other markets?

It works. I start it up and drive it and spend less money on fuel than if I were to have bought a ford/gmc/chevy van. Only maybe the transit connect Might come even remotely close on fuel cost, but it's 2+' shorter inside.

So far the only project is going to be to remove the hinged storage compartments and tiny table the last owner put in there. I think I'll leave the wood on the floor for now as well as on the walls and roof. Protects the floor, warmer to throw a sleeping bag on if I ever did, and the wall/roof wood can be a bit protective as well as give places to put some hooks/cargo nets. Also, if I remove the wood from the walls and roof then I'll see the 2 screw holes at the end of each 2-2 1/2" plank and that'll piss me off. :lol: Time will tell if I construct anything inside or just leave it bare and put tools in 5 gallon buckets, tool boxes, tote bins etc.

If I'm gonna sleep in it on a weekend trip, maybe I'll get some sort of hammock or car hammock to string up in the back.


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goldfish21
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03 Dec 2022, 10:19 pm

How many r00tb33rs you wanna bet on whether I get under or over 30 miles per US gallon on my first tank of mixed driving?

I’m about a quarter tank in right now and I’m very confident I’ll do over 30mpg. Confident enough that I’ll put a real wager on it - hell; enough for a fancy bottle of Henry Weinhard’s rootbeer even. :p

Willing to gamble & lose 5 bucks to me when the photo I snap of the empty tank next to the tripometer I reset when I filled up shows I beat 30mpg?


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04 Dec 2022, 11:29 am

Cruising down the road in a big old loaf.
:lol:
You are now officially old.


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goldfish21
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04 Dec 2022, 12:01 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Cruising down the road in a big old loaf.
:lol:
You are now officially old.

:heart: :heart: :heart:

Except these are considered rather cool here. They're not all that different of a shape and size than other vans, but just different enough that they're neat. Several different Japanese vans, especially the awd ones, are used as little camper vans and they're quite popular amongst outdoor enthusiasts in Squamish. Cheap on fuel for a beach bum kiteboarder to rock on over to the beach and kite and then stay a night or two etc. More popular with guys in their 30's/40's vs. younger or older.

Just a note about sitting right over the axle - wow - it's incredibly EASY to park and get out of tighter spaces. I can see why they require designs like these in Japan to fit quickly and easily into tight city parking spaces. This thing sits at approximately dead level with the height of an F-150, but it parks suuuuuuper easy - which is awesome.


Hmmm, big old loaf is a potential name.. so is denty the breadbox/toaster.. hmm.


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Misslizard
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04 Dec 2022, 5:32 pm

The bread loaf design has been around awhile.
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/stra ... read-loaf/
Perhaps you can get a sponsor, like Dave’s Killer Bread. :lol:


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goldfish21
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04 Dec 2022, 6:53 pm

Misslizard wrote:
The bread loaf design has been around awhile.
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/stra ... read-loaf/
Perhaps you can get a sponsor, like Dave’s Killer Bread. :lol:


Or maybe I could just have the side painted up with "Pest Control & Restaurant Supply" :D

I dunno - advertising on the side could generate business if I put my name, trade, email, cell number etc.. which could go on the van, or the rooftop box, or the 12+ foot long large PVC tube I'm going to have a plumber friend put together to put up on a ladder rack to slot 12' corner beads in etc.. buuuuut, I Also understand why people leave vans unmarked and don't advertise that they're in a trade at all so that some jackhole doesn't break in to steal tools. This van has limo tinted side/rear windows, which is good for security.. completely undoes things if I put a big sign on the side that says "Tools inside, smash and grab all you can carry!"


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goldfish21
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06 Dec 2022, 2:43 am

Ripped most of the "storage cabinets," and the little table top out of it tonight so I could put some tools and materials in it. Transferred all the tools from the trunk of my car, a couple more, a very little bit of material, and all the tools and things from the Thule ski box on top of my car.. and still have quite a bit of floor space.

First storage-y thing to get is a ladder rack, then I can put the Thule on top and a 12' or so tube for long thin materials. That'll clear floor space. Then maybe in time I'll figure out some sort of ideal storage, hooks, or racking.. or maybe just some cargo nets to hold 5 gallon buckets & tool boxes against the wall and leave everything clear so I can shift stuff around and put 4x8 sheets of material inside if I ever need to.


Also, got an oil change this eve and they F'd it up. Showed me 10w-30 diesel oil, I said yes that'll work, then I started it and the check engine light came on.. did 5 mins trouble shooting but I had to leave for an appointment. Googled, checked the invoice - they used 5w-40, too thick of an oil. Gotta go back first thing in the AM and hopefully they'll just drain and re-fill to correct it, especially since it cost me over $150. ($30 cash price for the filter from the only place in town to get one, then oil/labour at a local Great Canadian Oil Change location -> WAY more than the $65 I pay for full synthetic oil & filter in my car at a super cheap shop - they're just not nearly as convenient to go to in a pinch.)

Burnt through just a hair over 1/2 a tank so far + the diesel I topped off up to the top of the filler neck and on pace to beat 30mp US g even though I've spent 25-30mins idling, I'm doing mixed city and hwy driving, and I haven't exactly been hypermiling.. I have been up to 120-130kmh on the highway going with the flow, but then dropped down to 100-110kmh because the speed limit is 90kmh and fuel consumption goes way up at those speeds compared to my car which has a 6th (taller) gear so is still pretty fuel efficient cruising at ~120kmh. (van is only a 5 spd, and I have no idea what the gear ratios are.. I just assume by feel/rpm that I'm correct in that the 6th gear in my car is taller - gotta be.)

Cliffs: r00tb33r's gonna owe me a r00tb33r. :D (and I'm not even really Trying to beat 30mpg, basically just doing normal driving and seeing what happens. Bet if I REALLY try I could maybe even get 40ish by grannying it and never going over ~100kmh)


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r00tb33r
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06 Dec 2022, 3:39 am

...You don't change your own oil? 8O

Nah, you gonna need that money. You still live with your parents and don't change your own oil.
(Having the wrong oil put in your engine is the exact reason why you should consider doing *everything* yourself, you can never trust anyone! The derivative conclusion is to only buy cars you can service yourself.)
My last oil change was $17+$4, and at least I know I use quality supplies.

As for MPG, didn't you just say you topped it off? Maybe on the next fill up then, this experiment is toast. Honestly, this whole topping-off thing, never done it in my life. I go from full to empty, then fill. Very strange. :chin:

If you actually cared to know the actual MPG, you'd fill it up, then you'd reset the trip counter as you depart, then when it's empty you make note how much you're filling, then divide your trip counter reading by how much you filled at the end of the trip.

As for the needle, on mine it stays in the first quarter for the first half of the tank, then falls off really fast in the next 3 quarters, so I wouldn't put much stock into it. :wink:


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06 Dec 2022, 4:11 am

r00tb33r wrote:
...You don't change your own oil? 8O

Nah, you gonna need that money. You still live with your parents and don't change your own oil.
(Having the wrong oil put in your engine is the exact reason why you should consider doing *everything* yourself, you can never trust anyone! The derivative conclusion is to only buy cars you can service yourself.)
My last oil change was $17+$4, and at least I know I use quality supplies.

As for MPG, didn't you just say you topped it off? Maybe on the next fill up then, this experiment is toast. Honestly, this whole topping-off thing, never done it in my life. I go from full to empty, then fill. Very strange. :chin:

If you actually cared to know the actual MPG, you'd fill it up, then you'd reset the trip counter as you depart, then when it's empty you make note how much you're filling, then divide your trip counter reading by how much you filled at the end of the trip.

As for the needle, on mine it stays in the first quarter for the first half of the tank, then falls off really fast in the next 3 quarters, so I wouldn't put much stock into it. :wink:


Why would I change my own oil? :? It costs about $50 to buy oil and a filter, then you have to have a space to do dirty work, store a dirty oil catch pan, and transport the used oil for disposal during business hours. Major pita compared to just paying 65 bucks (in my car at my regular shop I go to) for someone else to do it and deal with the mess. $120-150 is at the quick oil change places where you pay 7-11 prices for convenience. (All of these prices are for full synthetic.) + We don’t have a space for dirty mechanical work at home & 99% of tools we own and use are for construction, not auto mechanics.



Who cares if I topped it off? :? I reset the trip and then when I fill up again I’ll top it off to the exact same point - right full to the top of the filler neck where I can see the fuel/it’s just about to overflow. Distance drive/same volume filled = very accurate

I reset the trip every time. Same for the mpg calculator on my car’s display. Let’s me monitor fuel consumption & adjust my right foot accordingly. Resetting the trip on my motorcycle let’s me know approx what range I have. (About 250km)

All tanks’ needles stay high at first then plummet. Especially so when you top off the tank. This is due to the shape of most gas tanks - wider at the top so they go down slower, then quicker, and no one has ever cared to program the needle
to super accurately display the % of remaining fuel. Accounting for this, I’m still on pace to do better than
30mp US gallon. I’d bet ya a r00tb33r on it. :beer:


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r00tb33r
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06 Dec 2022, 4:31 am

I don't know a single person who is topping off. Oh. I get it. You get associations about topping. :oops: :lol: That's hilarious! :lmao:

But yeah, I don't understand what you're doing there at all.


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