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y-pod
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08 Mar 2021, 1:54 am

I wasn't feminine when I was young. Though I can't say I felt other women were superior to me. Never tried to attract men and still wouldn't. If I want someone I go after them. It might be less fun than playing "games" but that's just the way I am.


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Aero_T
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10 Mar 2021, 8:16 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Sometimes I feel like a third gender, not in a nonbinary way. I feel so rejected and judged by other women, and so alien and undesirable to men, that I feel like a subwoman-- not a man, in a female body, but with none of the mystique and allure that is supposed to accompany womanhood.

I hate people on here telling me how attractive I am and I got someone telling me "the world is my oyster" because I'm a young woman. I know it's well intentioned, but I never once felt desirable and pretty like a woman. Other women intimidate me, I feel like they are higher than me in femininity and girliness. I feel inadequate next to them.

So... I don't feel like a girl but like a subwoman. I wondered if anyone else can relate?


I find this a disturbing viewpoint.
Women are not a collection of sexist stereotypes and they certainly do not exist to be desirable to men.
So what if some other people persue 'femininity and girliness'? If that is how they like to spend ther time, good for them but if you have better things to do (and most women do) then get on with what interests you.



rottingpetal
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12 Apr 2021, 12:16 am

100%! It's angered me that when I try to express this to anyone they automatically ask me, "so are you trans?" or, "you're obviously trans then." :roll:
I love being a woman but feel like I'm nowhere near what a woman is supposed to be--not by society's standards, just by natural standards lol.

Because of this I have a hard time feeling inadequate and alien around other women and it really sucks.



kraftiekortie
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13 Apr 2021, 6:41 am

I’m not exactly a “macho man”—though I like being manly.

My favorite women have a “light” femininity—they don’t try too hard to be feminine; it’s just “there.”

My manliness is “just there.”

You are not “less of a woman” just because you are not the epitome of femininity...just like I’m not less of a man because I’m not Brad Pitt.



magz
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13 Apr 2021, 7:04 am

rottingpetal wrote:
I love being a woman but feel like I'm nowhere near what a woman is supposed to be--not by society's standards, just by natural standards lol.

That's me!
I totally embrace the nature of my body and motherhood - and see no reason to wear particular (uncomfortable!) clothing, speak or act in a particular manner or restrict my interests because of it.

The older I get, the less I care for society expectations and it makes me happier being myself :)


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ArtsyFarsty
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13 Apr 2021, 2:54 pm

I think it becomes less of an issue if we first reject narrow definitions what it means to be "womanly" or "feminine".



cornerpiece
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17 Apr 2021, 6:15 pm

I do relate. In school, boys made a list once, rating girls by their "desirability". I came on the very bottom of it. And girls just ignored me, I had no common interests with females. I didn't feel masculine, but I didn't feel like a girl either. I felt like nobody.

Later, to my surprise, men were more interested, sometimes even several men at the same time expressed interest. I think the 2 main reasons for this difference were self-esteem and taking care of myself. I was good at my work, that was boosting my confidence, earning some respect and getting some friends, that in turn boosted my confidence more, made me look in the mirror and ask myself, maybe I don't look that bad, and maybe I can make myself look even better. Gradually I guess I discovered some femininity in myself, or maybe just trained myself in it, as part of masking. Eventually I found some female friends, and my newest female friend is a very normal typical NT. And you know what - I appreciate it. She listens, she cares, and I do my best to do the same.

I still don't feel like a 100% woman though. I feel sad and alone with my "subwoman" issue. It's just less bad than it used to be.



Redd_Kross
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17 Apr 2021, 7:36 pm

I'd concentrate on being who you are, and delighting in that.

If you don't identify with NT women that well, don't follow their rules in "competing" or comparing yourself. If indeed such actions are really necessary in the first place.

What makes you special, that they haven't got?

I'd much rather meet someone who is smart and unconventional, confident in following their own path (and sometimes making mistakes), than someone who is artificial, conformist and dull.

Be who you want to be, don't worry about following the herd. Herd animals aren't always that smart anyhow.



MossyRocks
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22 Apr 2021, 12:37 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Sometimes I feel like a third gender, not in a nonbinary way. I feel so rejected and judged by other women, and so alien and undesirable to men, that I feel like a subwoman-- not a man, in a female body, but with none of the mystique and allure that is supposed to accompany womanhood.

I hate people on here telling me how attractive I am and I got someone telling me "the world is my oyster" because I'm a young woman. I know it's well intentioned, but I never once felt desirable and pretty like a woman. Other women intimidate me, I feel like they are higher than me in femininity and girliness. I feel inadequate next to them.

So... I don't feel like a girl but like a subwoman. I wondered if anyone else can relate?


I think I understand, I can never relate to other women's experiences or interests, and get ostracized because they can tell something is 'off'. Men just leave me alone or are hostile, I'm below average in apperance and very blunt so they don't want to bother with me. I used to obsess over my looks and feel subhuman because I couldn't be pretty and friendly. These feelings went away as I started accepting myself and stopped trying to twist myself into the box of what men want.

Being "desirable and pretty like a woman" is a cheap party trick, it gets old fast and has no real benefit. It only feels good when you depend on mens sexual interest for self esteem.

Do you think girliness is a measure of a woman's worth? Surely there's more to you than makeup and being friendly.



idntonkw
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22 Apr 2021, 1:18 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Sometimes I feel like a third gender, not in a nonbinary way. I feel so rejected and judged by other women, and so alien and undesirable to men, that I feel like a subwoman-- not a man, in a female body, but with none of the mystique and allure that is supposed to accompany womanhood.

I hate people on here telling me how attractive I am and I got someone telling me "the world is my oyster" because I'm a young woman. I know it's well intentioned, but I never once felt desirable and pretty like a woman. Other women intimidate me, I feel like they are higher than me in femininity and girliness. I feel inadequate next to them.

So... I don't feel like a girl but like a subwoman. I wondered if anyone else can relate?


I'm a male and commented on your posts before. I'm a problematic person and often sound the wrong way. Just saying that I recognize what you describe and validate it based on my observations of NT women and the few suspected AS women I've encountered while taking dance classes. There is a difference that you describe. You are not making it up that you experience it and see that you can't keep up with the NT women. From my perspective, yes, the AS women do come off as more like men and less like natural women, and it does look less desirable and it's very hard to relate to. They also don't know how to dress, which makes them less interesting. Dancing with them is boring too as they move awkwardly on their feet and don't have a good touch connection to their dance partner. They make unattractive motions with their head and face too a little. You notice all these things and get turned off and don't get interested. You'd think a guy can relate to a girl who is like a guy, but it does not work that way. The AS is a turn off in the woman as the person presents as less smart and less astute, so it's like some part of the beauty and health is missing and there is very little intriguing. BUT, not all hope is lost, because I am an obtuse person, and there are astute men who can see past and relate to the things that still make you like a woman, but they are just much less strong and much harder to notice for the guy, but the guy who is naturally astute and can pick up will still like you and make you feel good. It's called emotional intelligence. Just like an AS man does best with a woman with high emotional intelligence, the same is true for you. I think another problem you have is lack of female AS friends who can help guide you in the search for a man you like. Often AS women will pick a guy they like, as opposed to waiting for the guy to pick them. Therefore, I recommend you join an online AS Women's Support Group.

I would never tell you that you are pretty knowing how it is a useless compliment that you can't use prettiness to get the standard results expected from it due to not being like the average expected woman in how you feel, think and behave naturally.

" I feel so rejected and judged by other women"
NT women do not support each other usually. I repeat, NT women do not support each other and often undermine each other and have fights with each other because they see each other as competition between individual females as and don't see each other as a group like members, all being female. You realize that NT women hate, don't support and envy each other, they are like cats each wanting their own territory and hating any other cat intruder competing against them, and they ARE bothered by you being pretty because they feel that it is like competition for them in the societal group they are in and they may feel envious to you for being pretty, while resenting you for failing at the social and emotional stuff that normally women have. It can be tough for an AS woman to go through her 20s trying to socialize and being resented by people because she is not like other people and has inappropriate feelings, reactions, comments, behavior and even developmental delay. You go through your 20s resented and alone, although you may have a few friends, because of the AS making you different and behind developmentally, which causes people to not be interested and drives people away too when you make mistakes emotionally with people, when you lack that emotional intuition about things.

"the world is my oyster" because I'm a young woman"
It CAN be, or it can LOOK to some people. There are benefits to being younger, and also benefits to being older. NT women generally have a best friend to go out with to parties or bars or social events, dress up, flirt, hook up or go on dates with guys, do online dating, get a lot of attention from guys if they are attractive. It doesn't really make the world their oyster, but there are social opportunities both for fun and dating and friendship.

"I never once felt desirable and pretty like a woman."
That is not necessarily AS. It could be that you have not learned to dress up and practice the traditional ways. Also lack of success with how you behave and lack of positive feedback. Once you get some POSITIVE experiences, you can start feel desirable and pretty on and off briefly regarding those situations when you experienced genuine success, even briefly. Here, if you read 'Feeling Good' by Dr Burns, CBT actually DOES help, as you can convince yourself and psych yourself up by giving yourself compliments. Like when you dress up, keep forcing yourself to give yourself positive compliments. Also, try different styles of outfits to try adopting a different personality. Look through the Burda Magazine to get a natural feel for fashion that has the effect of making women feel desirable and attractive - https://www.burdastyle.com/burda-academy

I personally struggle accepting and understanding the existence of women sometimes, like I know they exist and should be different, and I can imagine women being women with other men they find interesting, but I find it hard to relate to them as another person but with a woman's thoughts and feelings and experiences, as opposed to a man's. It's a tricky difference and sometimes I see it and other times I stop seeing it.

One advice from an AS woman was to find a KIND man who is NT that will protect you and be kind to you. I think you may be making the novice mistake that women in their early age make of going after the most social guys who happen not to be kind and protective over you. Start noticing the guys who are kind and protective, not just easily sociable and popular. The sociable and popular guys are kind of opportunistic and choose the best for themselves and don't show kindness to others as they can always trade up socially for the more desirable people to be around them, and they will not keep you around because you not near anywhere as sociable as they would accept for someone to deserve to be in their company. Kind people won't care. So my point is forget about the sociable opportunist guys, and look for to sociable kind guy.

Basically, your journey is exactly how you described - you lack support from other women and struggle with men due to being different from the standard NT woman they prefer.

Keep looking for that female best friend or two. Once you have a kind female best friend, things will get easier.



hariboci
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24 Apr 2021, 8:41 am

I like your expression "subwoman".
Yes, I can relate to, especially when I was younger. I couldn't get along with girls and I always thought in my previous life I was a man and I was just reborn to the wrong body this time - even though I'm a heterosexual woman.

I was diagnosed only recently, so I had no other explanation why I cannot get along with girls, why I don't look feminine enough or why am I not that attractive to boys. I tried to change my ways, copying behavior and clothes, makeup, hair, I had no sense for fashion just by myself. Achievements in school helped a bit to boost my self-confidence as well.
And it worked - well in short term. Men were interested in me in my twenties and thirties, but only until they figured out I'm a different and I don't play games, I don't tease them etc. So the masking was not perfect.

I tried to befriend with women in my late thirties, but it only worked with people similar to me, I didn't get the teasing and sarcasm, the "it was just a joke". So I stick to guys more. Unfortunately I live in a small country and I cannot find autistic groups for adults, thus I can meet my people only here on WP. I don't know where you live, but maybe you have difficulties to find them, too.


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kraftiekortie
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09 May 2021, 6:15 am

I’m not a “sub-man” because I’m not a macho man—just like you’re not a “sub-woman” just because you don’t fit all the feminine stereotypes.

Most women I know don’t try too hard to be all feminine and submissive most of the time. They act like people, not like stereotypes.



shortfatbalduglyman
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09 May 2021, 3:27 pm

I am a trans man and I feel subman and subhuman

But not because of autism

Just because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" does not mean everything to equally attractive

Not everyone finds the same thing attractive

Some people are naturally more attractive than others

If you have a hard time finding a date, if you want, you could try match.com

However, regardless of marital status, "life" goes on and on and on


Otherwise you could, if you want, put less emphasis on dating, and more emphasis on school, work, hobby, friend, goal

That way you could progress in your life, without dating



cbd
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09 May 2021, 6:29 pm

most ASD woman have a strong allure . when other people don't interact or show dislike it's either down to an ignorance (or lack of iq) .. or maybe jealousy . Especially if they are unfamiliar with Autism , goid chance is they don't know how to relate because you're not 'samey' like them .

Don't let the external world define how you perceive yourself . You will find in time that your situation is a blessing in disguise . it allows you to follow your own idea of 'normality' and style . you aren't bound by the same confines a 'normal' women . you have the space to truly be you . :heart:



cbd
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09 May 2021, 6:33 pm

sorry to bring myself into this ..

but .. people have called me weird or strange my whole life . when i started accepting this was other people's way of saying i'm different it all clicked . ironically it's this weirdness that draws other people to me because i'm not bound by the same laws of social acceptance as them . some think i'm arrogant . they just don't know me ..

so .. You are Unique . there are many gfine examples of pioneering individuals on the Spectrum . you may be part of this category without knowing it yet 8)

You're All Woman :wink:



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 May 2021, 8:11 pm

I can relate to this, I am not sure if it has anything to do with ASD as I am not diagnosed, but I do feel very different from NT women, in that they have an allure that I don't have, when I can produce it I feel like I don't wield it correctly. It's not an often occurrence, I just happen to on random occasions pull everything off, every possible, mask, in dress, speech, etc that elicits this NT presentation. I have found that I do not like it, and try to avoid it, although on those occasions it was not intentional. About NT women, I still think that I can be friends with them, and I have been a lot but over time, I have found it to be too much. Overwhelming, and anxiety-producing. I have just kind of decided I am different, not better or less, just different, and I am okay with that. In another thread I explained that I prefer to be around alpha or independent females, meaning basically loners who are friends with me due to a special interest not because of something else. I hope you feel whole soon.


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Your broader autism cluster (Aspie) score: 153 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 50 of 200
You are very likely on the broader autism cluster (Aspie)
Systemising Quotient (SQ) 78
Empathy Quotient (EQ) 41
CAT-Q 156 Compensation 56 Masking 48 Assimilation 52