Is there even a point to living if you're ugly?

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Postures
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28 Mar 2010, 11:49 pm

Lets form a Fuglies Unite society 8)


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monsterland
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29 Mar 2010, 12:55 am

bluerose wrote:
:D I kind of had a hunch that this would happen. Bunch of silly responses based on naivety. I AM ugly and I know since I own a mirror and if you think beauty doesn't matter or is subjective you obviously don't understand people or yourself all that well. I've only ever had negative responses from males- mockery and abuse and none of them would ever want me sexually.
I know there is more to me but that isn't the point, is it. On the practical side of things, looks are everything for a woman in this society. I am intelligent and very capable but does it matter if beautiful women get all the advantages?
I have zero friends, never been kissed and never will. That isn't the point. I'm talking about society in general, not personal relationships. I've given up on those already.


I don't want to insult your intelligence. When people tiptoe around the truth, nobody gets a solution. So, let's be brutally honest instead. I don't care if I'm labeled mysogynist or other kneejerk PC crap.

If you have a face generally considered unattractive, fixing it requires plastic surgery, which is expensive, scary, and results of which may not last(?).

But, the body doesn't require plastic surgery. It requires proper diet and exercise. If you have an unattractive face, the body can offset the overall image and make you "quirky/exotic looking" instead of "ugly". Let's not forget that getting the body in proper shape affects how the face itself looks, as well.

Cared-for body+positive attitude can dramatically improve how you appear to others.



hale_bopp
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29 Mar 2010, 1:10 am

Well people may think personality is pointless, but it isn't. Yeah, maybe it is in a world of people who are very spiritually un-advanced. Which sadly, is the case a lot of the time, but these souls will learn in due time. We all are a bit like that.. really.

I am one of those people who cares about what I look like, pretty much only to be able to cope with the sexist world of today.

Your best bet if you think there is no hope for you living is find something to believe in. It can make all the difference. If you can't do that, you could talk to your doctor about whether you need meds for depression.

I would also like to establish why you think you're ugly?



bluerose
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29 Mar 2010, 5:27 am

zee- that really sucks what happened to you. I know exactly how that feels because of the incident that encouraged me to post here as well. The male teacher that only gives good grades to the hot chicks. I used to have A's in that subject because we had a nonbiased(nonlesbian) female teacher that didn't care how attractive you were. Those are the kind of teachers that see how talented I am, the males and lesbians never do because they're too blinded by the hot blondes. I mean, I got a C in a subject and there was this other blonde chick with more mistakes than me last year who just whined about it a little to another male teacher and boom! She got an A from the male teacher. And of course I can't talk to anyone about it, it's not that type of school and ours is not that kind of country.
monsterland- I have no cash for plastic surgery. My body is ideal weight and really nothing to complain about. I do work out, I dance and sometimes lift a little in the gym. Does wonders for the stress. Positive attitude I've got but the males always seem to shoot that down rather fast. I'm definately collecting some plastic surgery money for the future though.
I am not really dissatisfied with my appearance, it doesn't bother ME, it's all the males around me that insist on discriminating against me because of it that's my problem.



b9
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29 Mar 2010, 5:58 am

it is amazing to think that your existence traces back through your parents and grandparents and great grandparents and....... all the way back to the "primordial soup" about 3.6 billion years ago.

if there was any failure to mate in any generation that is in your eternal heritage, then you would not be here.

"family trees" have millions or even billions of subdivisions back to the trunk, and if you are the last in your evolutionary line, then you are like the flower at the end of your branch of evolution that has grown more diverse for 3.5 billions years .
flowers do not subdivide and sprout further growth, and they do not propagate any offspring if they are not pollinated.

if a flower is left alone, it drops to the ground and the family tree it was a part of never grows any further in your direction.

every life form is a relative of each other, and if you are not pollinated then you will never become the fruit who bears the seeds that will extend your line of genetic evolution.
how sad.

none of your forefathers all the way back to the primordial soup failed to reproduce, so if you do fail then you are the flower at the end of the evolutionary tree that was left alone.

whatever i am not thinking in human language at the moment so that is all.



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29 Mar 2010, 6:37 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Moog wrote:
I merely meant the division of man and woman. I know this is the women's discussion area, but this is a problem that affects both sexes.

I was trying to find a better word but failed.


Thanks. I was just wondering, because anorexia and bulimia is so rare in men. I mean, my brother has/had anorexia, so I know it happens, but it is so rare that guys have that level of servitude to body image.


Maybe not so rare but men are more likely to go the other way and try to become muscular rather than thin.

There are quite a lot who don't seem to realise that they have become "too big" and are damaging their health getting that way.

What helps is that exercising seems to create a "natural high" that improves confidence and self esteem even before any physical effects are visible. So guys are likely to feel happier about themselves before they reach the level of extreme muscle mass.

But yes it's true. Men generally don't feel the need to be good looking as much as women do.


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BigK
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29 Mar 2010, 7:14 am

bluerose wrote:
Positive attitude I've got but the males always seem to shoot that down rather fast.

I'm definately collecting some plastic surgery money for the future though.

I am not really dissatisfied with my appearance, it doesn't bother ME, it's all the males around me that insist on discriminating against me because of it that's my problem.


If you are "not really dissatisfied with my appearance" then I really don't think that you should waste money on plastic surgery.
If the real problem is other people then maybe the money would be better spent moving somewhere else.


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29 Mar 2010, 7:16 am

BigK wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Anorexia and bulimia is so rare in men. I mean, my brother has/had anorexia, so I know it happens, but it is so rare that guys have that level of servitude to body image.


Maybe not so rare but men are more likely to go the other way and try to become muscular rather than thin.

There are quite a lot who don't seem to realise that they have become "too big" and are damaging their health getting that way.

What helps is that exercising seems to create a "natural high" that improves confidence and self esteem even before any physical effects are visible. So guys are likely to feel happier about themselves before they reach the level of extreme muscle mass.

But yes it's true. Men generally don't feel the need to be good looking as much as women do.


Sinsboldly; (I love your name, btw) it's true that male body image problems are a bit rarer, but I'd speculate that the last few years has seen a vast increase in men with such disorders, and that the problems will become a bit more visible in times to come. I myself have had considerable body image problems that are mostly under control now, but can resurface occasionally.

BigK, good post! I think some people call that male response to body image problems 'Manorexia'. I have a friend (who is now living as a woman, but that's a different story) who had that, and she suffers many physical ailments from all the weight lifting, steroids, and liver abuse that comes from overeating and excessive nutritional supplement use.


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bluerose
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29 Mar 2010, 8:28 am

BigK wrote:
bluerose wrote:
Positive attitude I've got but the males always seem to shoot that down rather fast.

I'm definately collecting some plastic surgery money for the future though.

I am not really dissatisfied with my appearance, it doesn't bother ME, it's all the males around me that insist on discriminating against me because of it that's my problem.


If you are "not really dissatisfied with my appearance" then I really don't think that you should waste money on plastic surgery.
If the real problem is other people then maybe the money would be better spent moving somewhere else.


Move where? There are males and lesbians everywhere on the planet. I live in the biggest city of my country and I've been around people enough to know that this goes on EVERYWHERE. It's a matter of human nature, not location.



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29 Mar 2010, 8:46 am

bluerose wrote:
Moog wrote:
zee wrote:
All this stuff about 'inner beauty' may be well-meant, but bluerose definately has a point. Women who are ugly on the outside have a much, much harder time getting by than pretty or even average-looking females.
Especially in finding, yet alone keeping, employment.


Well that's of no practical value.

If you aren't beautiful best thing to do is find ways to accept it, and ways to live without it. If you are going to deny the existence or value of inner beauty, that's fine. But for some of us, that's all we have.

Yes, people do respond differently to physical beauty than physical not beauty. That's all there is to say about that.


That's why I started the topic. Just to hear other women's experiences that aren't beautiful. In employment and accepting it etc... Not some BS (IMO) about inner beauty or other stuff and esspecially not crap from those women who are so silly as to take their beauty for granted.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be that many people that have any idea as to what I'm dealing with here. I don't think many people could even comprehend what it's like to live if nobody ever likes you or wants to give you a chance.


I think it is how you framed the topic. By framing the topic in terms of "is it even worth living if you are not beautiful" you are setting yourself up for a particular exchange. If you framed it as "I am sick of the discrimination because of my looks" you would have gotten more of the responses you were looking for.

This is called framing the debate. You came off as extremely depressed, maybe even suicidal, which makes people want to encourage you life is worth living, inner beauty etc. When it got down to it, you are sick of the discrimination, which you have every right to be.

With that being said, you are right, women are treated very differently based upon thier looks. I am not saying that one has to be incredibly pretty, but there is without question a threshold which is there. I also realize that it is not based upon how you "make yourself up". I skate by rather easily without wearing makeup and while I might not be super-attractive, I am attractive enough, in other words, I meet the threshold. With that being said, guys don't need to look attractive to succeed, women it is practically a requirement. I will say, I don't like the attention I get either, how good you look is very much a double edge sword.

I think you are right about thinking about cosmetic surgery. Those who dismiss it do not realize how important asthetics is for a woman's career. It doesn't have to be over the top. It is a sad reality, but it is reality, and I am not going to discourage you. I have known women who did have it, and yes even a minor tweak can make a world of difference.

With that being said, as much as I hate suggesting financing something through debt, this is one thing where in the long run it could be worthwhile. The very fact is it sounds like it is holding you back in terms of earning potential.


So how is that for a realistic viewpoint.



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29 Mar 2010, 1:19 pm

bluerose wrote:
BigK wrote:
bluerose wrote:
Positive attitude I've got but the males always seem to shoot that down rather fast.

I'm definately collecting some plastic surgery money for the future though.

I am not really dissatisfied with my appearance, it doesn't bother ME, it's all the males around me that insist on discriminating against me because of it that's my problem.


If you are "not really dissatisfied with my appearance" then I really don't think that you should waste money on plastic surgery.
If the real problem is other people then maybe the money would be better spent moving somewhere else.


Move where? There are males and lesbians everywhere on the planet. I live in the biggest city of my country and I've been around people enough to know that this goes on EVERYWHERE. It's a matter of human nature, not location.


It might go on everywhere but not to the extent that you suggest. I have been removed from work sites because the client wanted a worker who is white. It happens. But not to extent that I cannot get work. Or to the extent that I cannot well paid work.

The world may be full of "males and lesbians" that doesn't mean that they would ALL choose someone ahead of you just because of that person's looks.

In my opinion a vague "air of aspiness" is likely to have a bigger impact on someone's employment prospects than their looks, race, gender etc. Check the threads on the percentage of aspies in employment.

Times are hard Bluerose. Many companies cannot afford to hire anyone. When they can they need to hire someone who can do a good job and make the company money. They are not going to hire someone just because the boss they're pretty. (Well, OK, some might ;))

I can honestly say the companies that I have spent most of the last 20 years working for have not hired or turned down anyone based on their looks. I have been involved in the hiring process for 10+ years.
We are a small company and probably not the kind of place you are looking for but I am just making the point that it is not 100% of people who will make a big deal out of this.

If you are good at what you do and can make a company money someone will give you a chance.


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29 Mar 2010, 4:47 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

Thanks. I was just wondering, because anorexia and bulimia is so rare in men. I mean, my brother has/had anorexia, so I know it happens, but it is so rare that guys have that level of servitude to body image.


I know this is tangential, but fashion was a special interest of mine for a while and anorexia is connected to it. The first recorded cases occurred in England and France in the late 1700s and early 1800s (after profound shifts among male social values and therefore dress) among the male followers of Beau Brummel, the founder of dandyism. It really became an issue with women later in the 20th century. Neat-o dorit-o.



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29 Mar 2010, 8:13 pm

Moog wrote:
zee wrote:
Moog wrote:
zee wrote:
@Moog:

You're not even a woman, what would you know about it? And your comments have no relevance to what I wrote.


I'm not a woman, so what? That's no defense against feeling ugly and unloved. I can assure that I understand the OP's pain only too well.


Moog, I can see that you mean well, I just don't think you really understand. There is a difference between being an ugly woman and an ugly man. The former is what we were discussing, and you simply ignore all the relevant points that have been brought up my myself, bluerose, and others and focus on generalizing from your point of view.


That's probably true. I try to take the specific and make it general, so it can connect with more people. Is this the wrong approach for this situation? I don't think it's good to divide people that share problems and feelings into ghetto groups. I'm sure that men and woman can feel differently about the same thing, experience things differently. If so, I'd love to know how exactly? Perhaps there is an opportunity for further understanding, because at the moment I feel like I have missed something.


This is where we discuss women's issues!



zee
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29 Mar 2010, 8:19 pm

bluerose wrote:
zee- that really sucks what happened to you. I know exactly how that feels because of the incident that encouraged me to post here as well. The male teacher that only gives good grades to the hot chicks. I used to have A's in that subject because we had a nonbiased(nonlesbian) female teacher that didn't care how attractive you were. Those are the kind of teachers that see how talented I am, the males and lesbians never do because they're too blinded by the hot blondes. I mean, I got a C in a subject and there was this other blonde chick with more mistakes than me last year who just whined about it a little to another male teacher and boom! She got an A from the male teacher. And of course I can't talk to anyone about it, it's not that type of school and ours is not that kind of country.
monsterland- I have no cash for plastic surgery. My body is ideal weight and really nothing to complain about. I do work out, I dance and sometimes lift a little in the gym. Does wonders for the stress. Positive attitude I've got but the males always seem to shoot that down rather fast. I'm definately collecting some plastic surgery money for the future though.
I am not really dissatisfied with my appearance, it doesn't bother ME, it's all the males around me that insist on discriminating against me because of it that's my problem.


That teacher is an idiot, but it's very probable that it will get back to him, though. Are you sure there's no one to complain to, have you asked other's opinions?



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29 Mar 2010, 10:47 pm

bluerose wrote:
psychointegrator and others doubting my ugliness- I have female friends. Zero males. I have a normal personality and I behave very nicely. I know males will have sex with anyone but they will treat better those that they want to have sex with in all areas of life. I have experienced this. My more attractive female friends get stuff for free, etc, this has never happened to me ofcourse even though I dress even better than them and wear makeup as well.
I am a VERY nice person. Smiling is not an issue.
I know I'm ugly because in school I have been discriminated against. There was a male teacher and we did the same work with the same errors and the blonde hot chicks got As and I got a C. I get worse grades for less mistakes made and also worse treatment from male teachers. Never had any issues with the female ones, except one who is probably a lesbian.
Actually, I created this topic to focus more on the workplace better treatment of beautiful over ugly women and how much of an advantage they have when it comes to career and other stuff in life, including school. Which they do have a HUGE advantage, if you read any studies and if you understand the world and society at all.


I have zero male friends IRL and I am not ugly.



bluerose
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30 Mar 2010, 6:56 am

zee wrote:
That teacher is an idiot, but it's very probable that it will get back to him, though. Are you sure there's no one to complain to, have you asked other's opinions?


I haven't really asked anyone but I know people have noticed or seen it happen but they haven't said anything about it. I think all the teachers know but they don't really care. And why should they, it's not their grades that are affected and they probably also have favourites of their own. I don't exactly go to a great school, just a crappy public school with crappy teachers so I doubt anyone would bother to check it out, esspecially if I'm the only one complaining, I'll probably only come across as a whiner. Also, the principal is male.