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GivePeaceAChance
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09 Apr 2014, 10:36 am

tarantella64 wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
OK PMS wasn't the best example. There are no rules that say you can't talk about it or other female-specific issues in other parts of the site. There is no policy where women are to stay quiet unless they post their issues in here.

The fact is that men and women have different bodies and therefore have different specific things they want to discuss about them.

However, this is a section that women might like to post in if they want to signal that they want to talk to mostly other women about something. Or if women are scanning the subjects from the main page they can click on here if they specifically want to help other women out with stuff.

There is no hidden agenda.


Okay, and women need to congregate off in a corner to talk about lady things because....Or in order to help other women because....

You know, if I want to help a woman with something...I'm having trouble here understanding why she shouldn't, say, post in Jobs, or Love/Dating, and I just...go ahead and help her out right there. Unless the reason's that we're likely to get attacked with a lot of sexist/sexualized hurr-hurr-hurr fappage.



ding, ding, ding, ding, ding - we have the answer


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hurtloam
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09 Apr 2014, 12:22 pm

Well women obvioulsy want to congregate and talk to each other. If they didn't then this sub-section would be empty and unused. The facts speak for themselves. This sub-section is being used.



tarantella64
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09 Apr 2014, 8:59 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Well women obvioulsy want to congregate and talk to each other. If they didn't then this sub-section would be empty and unused. The facts speak for themselves. This sub-section is being used.


Circular reasoning at its finest.

An experiment: Begin aggressively moderating sexist comments on the rest of the site. My guess is that if that were done, this forum would dry up and blow away. Why? Because women would feel safe to discuss things that are normal parts of life anywhere on the forum. If you wanted a "body parts" forum, or "care and feeding of the body" forum, or anything like that, men and women would feel free to participate, because both would be respected.

The only women I meet who blush scarlet at the notion of discussing lady things in the presence of reasonably respectful M-E-N are under the age of 18. The internet is full of grown women talking about vaginas, breasts, periods, sex, pregnancy, giving birth, women's underwear, daycares, girliness, etc. just like the ordinary things they are. What they don't do is discuss these things where they're going to be subjected to juvenile and sexist poo-flinging.

The routine sexism on this site is mindboggling and, frankly, gives asperger's a bad name. I've had conversations about dating with 15-year-old boys that were more sensible than some of the threads I've seen left to roll on here. I understand that there are a number of conflicts and confusions to do with "what women are" and "how to date" and "am I supposed to adopt a highly stereotyped and somewhat archaic sexual role in a relationship -- no? oh, then what are the rules please", but that doesn't excuse adoption of sexist-jerk language. Which, on this site, can go on for page after page. I can't imagine it being let go on any other site I hang around.



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11 Apr 2014, 12:30 pm

I really don't agree with your argument at all. You are reading too much into the name of this sub-section. Why don't you go and start a women oriented subject matter discussion in another sub-forum and test out your theory then?

Granted the L&D section is probably the worst for sexism, but there are a few women on here that will try and be the voice of reason and put up a good fight to point out the sexism and turn the threads around. I never feel unwelcome anywhere on Wrong Planet, but I'm a tough nut and maybe I'm not seeing this from the perspective of someone a little more timid than myself.

Yes, sometimes an attitude will be expressed by someone that I totally disagree with, but here's the thing, we are all individuals with different opinions on things. You can take a horse to the water, but you can' t make it drink.

All of the sub-forums are simply labelled boxes to keep the site tidy. That's it. That really is all it is. If there were no sub-sections we would all have a hard time keeping track of things with the amount of threads published on here everyday.

And if you see something that you think has got out of hand and is sexist contact a moderator. They are not omnipresent. We are all responsible for what goes on here. If people report things the moderators are quick to respond.



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11 Apr 2014, 12:58 pm

Just so we are clear:

-We have been asked to avoid limiting how much we let members express themselves. In alex words members should sound as stupid as they wish.

This goes both ways and is the reason we had a thread that stated all males are evil /only want to take advantage of a girl at the top of L&D for several weeks recently for example(it became a bit of a joke so there was no need to lock it)



tarantella64
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11 Apr 2014, 5:55 pm

spongy wrote:
Just so we are clear:

-We have been asked to avoid limiting how much we let members express themselves. In alex words members should sound as stupid as they wish.

This goes both ways and is the reason we had a thread that stated all males are evil /only want to take advantage of a girl at the top of L&D for several weeks recently for example(it became a bit of a joke so there was no need to lock it)


So let's hear what the boundaries are, then.
Is racism okay?
Expressions of lust for children?
If someone turns up declaring himself a neo-Nazi, and we begin having a discussion about how Jewish bankers are in a conspiracy to rule the world, are we cool?
Suggestions that autistics be sterilized as genetic defectives?
Discussions of how enjoyable it might be to rape someone?

Where are the lines?



tarantella64
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11 Apr 2014, 6:09 pm

hurtloam wrote:
I really don't agree with your argument at all. You are reading too much into the name of this sub-section. Why don't you go and start a women oriented subject matter discussion in another sub-forum and test out your theory then?


Because it's been "tested" multiply and more than adequately by many women here already, and the usual finding is that it devolves into appalling ignorant selfpitying MRA-style sexism rather quickly?

Quote:
Granted the L&D section is probably the worst for sexism, but there are a few women on here that will try and be the voice of reason and put up a good fight to point out the sexism and turn the threads around.


Why on earth should they have to do that? When you go to a park, you don't expect to have to brawl for the right to be there without being harassed. Because it'd be horrible and crazy.

Quote:
I never feel unwelcome anywhere on Wrong Planet, but I'm a tough nut and maybe I'm not seeing this from the perspective of someone a little more timid than myself.


Or perhaps you haven't seen it from the perspective of someone who has seen, in many contexts, how endemic sexism hurts women emotionally, financially, physically, legally, and in just about every other way imaginable?

Your entire stance here seems to be "I don't see it hurting me, so it's okay." Take a step back, away from selfcenteredness, and look at how sexism hurts women daily, socially. Ask yourself why women have had to fight for equal pay laws, the right to own their own money, to vote, to be protected from domestic violence and workplace harassment.

Where the default is "it's okay to speak horribly disrespectfully about women", you'll find that other treatment of women isn't so hot, either.

Quote:
Yes, sometimes an attitude will be expressed by someone that I totally disagree with, but here's the thing, we are all individuals with different opinions on things. You can take a horse to the water, but you can' t make it drink.


Disagreement and outright disrespect based on possession of a vagina are two different things. And actually you can enforce civility towards women. It's called moderation. In corporateland, it's called a harassment policy, and in law, it's called a hostile workplace environment. I can tell you that here in universityland, the level of disrespectful talk about women and general grab-assery has gone way, way down since it became clear that faculty could and would lose their careers over it.

Quote:
All of the sub-forums are simply labelled boxes to keep the site tidy. That's it. That really is all it is. If there were no sub-sections we would all have a hard time keeping track of things with the amount of threads published on here everyday.


You're still missing the point entirely. Were WP a respectful and safe environment for women generally, there would be no "women's discussion". It wouldn't be needed.

Quote:
And if you see something that you think has got out of hand and is sexist contact a moderator. They are not omnipresent. We are all responsible for what goes on here. If people report things the moderators are quick to respond.


What I've seen is that someone will call a mod, the mod will look at the thread and shrug, and say, "sorry, can't do anything about it." Twitter had a serious problem with the same thing not long ago, when a prominent feminist in England was getting bombarded with death threats. Twitter at first shrugged and went all free-speechy, then were shouted down, and their policy's changed somewhat. Kickstarter, also, got complaints over a project to write a "how to pick up and rape women" book, shrugged, and wound up having to do a lot of public groveling and apologising.

The male-female ratio here is very high, but I rather suspect that if some of these threads were publicised as "omg look at the horrible sexist things these autistic guys say", it'd attract considerable attention. People out there in the world feel quite strongly about these things.



spongy
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11 Apr 2014, 10:19 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
spongy wrote:
Just so we are clear:

-We have been asked to avoid limiting how much we let members express themselves. In alex words members should sound as stupid as they wish.

This goes both ways and is the reason we had a thread that stated all males are evil /only want to take advantage of a girl at the top of L&D for several weeks recently for example(it became a bit of a joke so there was no need to lock it)


So let's hear what the boundaries are, then.
Is racism okay?
Expressions of lust for children?
If someone turns up declaring himself a neo-Nazi, and we begin having a discussion about how Jewish bankers are in a conspiracy to rule the world, are we cool?
Suggestions that autistics be sterilized as genetic defectives?
Discussions of how enjoyable it might be to rape someone?

Where are the lines?

Several members of the PPR section are known racists and we do not have an issue with that. Racism outside PPR does get a little trickier so we may contact someone that is repeatedly blaming other races.

We havent had anyone expressing lust for children I am afraid. However if it was done on a way that the member could handle the backlash it was getting I do not see why we couldnt let this member sound as ignorant as he wants.

There have been several threads discussing the wonderful world of eugenics repeatedly over at General Autistic Discussion. Most members are against eugenics but some arent, if they can discuss things without going at each others throat we do not lock things.

There was a discussion on the possibility of raping someone and wether or not other people felt random urges to less than a month ago at L&D. OP was told to seek psychiatric help repeatedly and since he could handle the replies it wasnt locked either.


For any changes on the current approach you should approach alex.
We cant change anything unless he states so



tarantella64
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11 Apr 2014, 11:55 pm

This all seems shockingly naive to me. I'll repeat that it doesn't reflect well on this autistic community.



leafplant
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12 Apr 2014, 12:16 am

tarantella64 wrote:
This all seems shockingly naive to me. I'll repeat that it doesn't reflect well on this autistic community.


This is reality of the every day world we live in. You cannot make lasting change by enforcing rules, you can only make lasting change by persuading people to change themselves because it is in their own best interest to do so. Those who make sexist remarks do so out of ignorance. Educate them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIGyVa5Xftw[/youtube]



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12 Apr 2014, 3:29 am

tarantella64 wrote:
spongy wrote:
Just so we are clear:

-We have been asked to avoid limiting how much we let members express themselves. In alex words members should sound as stupid as they wish.

This goes both ways and is the reason we had a thread that stated all males are evil /only want to take advantage of a girl at the top of L&D for several weeks recently for example(it became a bit of a joke so there was no need to lock it)


So let's hear what the boundaries are, then.
Is racism okay?
Expressions of lust for children?
If someone turns up declaring himself a neo-Nazi, and we begin having a discussion about how Jewish bankers are in a conspiracy to rule the world, are we cool?
Suggestions that autistics be sterilized as genetic defectives?
Discussions of how enjoyable it might be to rape someone?

Where are the lines?


Expressions of lust for children are not in the same league as discussions of PUA tactics and how they work because "all women are the same".

The former is creepy and wrong.
The latter is just dumb.


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Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
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tarantella64
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12 Apr 2014, 12:00 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
spongy wrote:
Just so we are clear:

-We have been asked to avoid limiting how much we let members express themselves. In alex words members should sound as stupid as they wish.

This goes both ways and is the reason we had a thread that stated all males are evil /only want to take advantage of a girl at the top of L&D for several weeks recently for example(it became a bit of a joke so there was no need to lock it)


So let's hear what the boundaries are, then.
Is racism okay?
Expressions of lust for children?
If someone turns up declaring himself a neo-Nazi, and we begin having a discussion about how Jewish bankers are in a conspiracy to rule the world, are we cool?
Suggestions that autistics be sterilized as genetic defectives?
Discussions of how enjoyable it might be to rape someone?

Where are the lines?


Expressions of lust for children are not in the same league as discussions of PUA tactics and how they work because "all women are the same".

The former is creepy and wrong.
The latter is just dumb.


Au contraire. Viewing women -- you know, people -- as mere targets for f*****g, and then developing strategies to go after said targets, and developing networks for sharing strategies with other such creepsters, is also creepy and wrong.



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12 Apr 2014, 6:34 pm

leafplant wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
This all seems shockingly naive to me. I'll repeat that it doesn't reflect well on this autistic community.


This is reality of the every day world we live in. You cannot make lasting change by enforcing rules, you can only make lasting change by persuading people to change themselves because it is in their own best interest to do so.
[/quote]

Oh, on the contrary, you certainly can make lasting change by enforcing rules. That's why an entire generation of young women expect to play sports, have jobs, get through university without being molested by their professors, get paid as well as men for the same jobs, be able to report rapes and divorce abusive husbands, and so on. Those things are all very much about making rules and enforcing them.

I can tell you that the kinds of conversations that go on here would in no way be tolerated in any other environment I spend time in. Not by women and not by men. When the rules are enforced for long enough, the norms change. And where the norms have changed so that some modicum of respect for women is usual, it's an entirely different atmosphere.

Education is fine, but it's not all you need if you want respect for women in a place where the norm is disrespect. You need rules, and you need them enforced. I also think it's in this community's self-interest, because it's only a matter of time before someone from a high-readership site like Jezebel wanders over here and has the aa-OO-gah reaction, and writes a story about the incredible sexist s**t that autistic men lay down. At which point hello world. Then not only is this site (and Alex) rapidly overwhelmed, but it enters the public mind that autists are every kind of shocking -ist in the book. (I don't think you'd enjoy the reaction from the gay community, either. There's a reason why the Mozilla CEO had to step down.)

Anyway. Yeah, some actual moderation would be, I think, a good thing. There's a difference between open and appalling.



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12 Apr 2014, 6:54 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
leafplant wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
This all seems shockingly naive to me. I'll repeat that it doesn't reflect well on this autistic community.


This is reality of the every day world we live in. You cannot make lasting change by enforcing rules, you can only make lasting change by persuading people to change themselves because it is in their own best interest to do so.


Oh, on the contrary, you certainly can make lasting change by enforcing rules. That's why an entire generation of young women expect to play sports, have jobs, get through university without being molested by their professors, get paid as well as men for the same jobs, be able to report rapes and divorce abusive husbands, and so on. Those things are all very much about making rules and enforcing them.

I can tell you that the kinds of conversations that go on here would in no way be tolerated in any other environment I spend time in. Not by women and not by men. When the rules are enforced for long enough, the norms change. And where the norms have changed so that some modicum of respect for women is usual, it's an entirely different atmosphere.

Education is fine, but it's not all you need if you want respect for women in a place where the norm is disrespect. You need rules, and you need them enforced. I also think it's in this community's self-interest, because it's only a matter of time before someone from a high-readership site like Jezebel wanders over here and has the aa-OO-gah reaction, and writes a story about the incredible sexist sh** that autistic men lay down. At which point hello world. Then not only is this site (and Alex) rapidly overwhelmed, but it enters the public mind that autists are every kind of shocking -ist in the book. (I don't think you'd enjoy the reaction from the gay community, either. There's a reason why the Mozilla CEO had to step down.)

Anyway. Yeah, some actual moderation would be, I think, a good thing. There's a difference between open and appalling.[/quote]

^^^ this is absolutely true. i hope the mods are paying attention, but i'm not going to hold my breath hoping for change.



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12 Apr 2014, 6:56 pm

The moderators are not omniscient and cannot possibly pick up on every piece of content that may offend someone.
Additionally, some of us have day jobs and can't spend every second removing content that upsets you. Especially if we don't know that it has upset you (see: not omniscient. We also are not telepathic.)

Here is the link that tells you how to report things that you find inappropriate: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt237032.html

In particular, note point 3:

3) Send a private message to an active mod
Use this option for:
reporting concerns about another member's behavior
reporting content that may violate the site rules


==================

On a non-moderatorial note, you are always free to argue against the offensive points of view that members hold. I'd say that a compelling argument is more good than simply smacking someone's bottom and telling them that they can't play on this website anymore.
If someone gets banned for expressing misogynist views, it isn't going to reform them. They'll just go out into the world with even more resentment towards women. It doesn't make the world a safer place for women; it just makes your little corner a bit more comfortable.


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Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I ! !! !
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tarantella64
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12 Apr 2014, 7:35 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
If someone gets banned for expressing misogynist views, it isn't going to reform them. They'll just go out into the world with even more resentment towards women. It doesn't make the world a safer place for women; it just makes your little corner a bit more comfortable.


So this corner, and that corner, and pretty soon misogynists have about as much fun as smokers when they're looking for a place to give off a lot of poisonous stuff.

spongy just said that the mods are instructed, effectively, not to moderate for sexism. So how does reporting help?

Also, again, I think you're missing the point. I don't come here to battle sexism, it's not like I've got nothing else to do. I shouldn't have to battle sexism at all. Not in this forum and not on the rest of the site. Neither should anyone else.