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IncredibleFrog
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25 Dec 2014, 11:45 pm

I'm not a feminist. But it does get on my nerves when I can't find a single woman on television I can actually relate to. I know I must not be the only one.

Women seem to either fall into two categories according to media: super sexy, direct, feminist icon, or some damsel in distress love-interest thrown in for sex appeal. I get that women are embracing their sexualities, and that's great. But there's more to women than just sex.

Even women who are supposed to be strong and independent (I could list pretty much any of the popular women singers right now) are so hung up on looking, and talking, and being sexy, they are almost as bland personality wise as the previously mentioned damsel in distress.

I want to see some women with actual personalities. You can be sexy if you want, just please, please show me some other adjectives with which to describe you!



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26 Dec 2014, 12:55 am

Amy Farrah Fowler is the most interesting celebrity IMO. Certainly not "sexy" but still interesting and appealing.



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26 Dec 2014, 2:08 am

There should be more androgynous females, such as myself...that said I don't really concern myself about whether or not I relate to women on t.v, most t.v nowadays seems to be garbage anyways.

I do like those two actresses that used to play the news-reporters for weekend update or whatever on Saturday night live always thought they where funny and didn't/don't seem to be over the top feminine.


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traven
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26 Dec 2014, 3:59 am

sure it won't be on the propaganda-outlet with feeds your addiction to consumerism



traven
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26 Dec 2014, 11:55 am

"La femme-enfant" or .....the lucratif construct of it.
La femme-enfant est plutôt bien vue dans la société/ The woman-child is rather welllooked upon in society.(harhar, how come, would that possibly be of any interest ?)

What does the term “femme enfant” mean to you?
Simon Porte: The femme enfant is this very French idea of a woman who never quite left childhood behind. You couldn’t quite tell whether she is a girl, a woman, or a girl trying to be a woman. It could be a 20 year-old girl or a 40 year-old woman who, taking her kids to school, realises in some ways she is more childish than they are. My own mother is a bit like that, but she always expresses it in a very subtle way. A true femme enfant is never too obvious or exaggerated.
Why did you decide to make a film about her?
Simon Porte: The femme enfant was the inspiration behind my collection. I’m quite obsessed with the idea of childhood, the fun, the playfulness, the carelessness… and I think it always shows in my collections; but this season, as I was designing, I started to imagine all this story about a young femme enfant who lives like children live: she plays, she draws, she eats… and I translated all that into the naïve shapes, the colour contrasts and the oversized graphic shapes of the collection. And, since the collection started with a story, it quite naturally turned into a short film.
http://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/art ... mme-enfant

"In 1970 the movement was called 'Women's Liberation' or, contemptuously, 'Women's Lib'. When the name 'Libbers' was dropped for 'Feminists' we were all relieved. What none of us noticed was that the ideal of liberation was fading out with the word. We were settling for equality. Liberation struggles are not about assimilation but about asserting difference, endowing that difference with dignity and prestige, and insisting on it as a condition of self-definition and self-determination. The aim of women's liberation is to do as much for female people as has been done for colonized nations. Women's liberation did not see the female's potential in terms of the male's actual; the visionary feminists of the late sixties and early seventies knew that women could never find freedom by agreeing to live the lives of unfree men. Seekers after equality clamoured to be admitted to smoke-filled male haunts. Liberationists sought the world over for clues as to what women's lives could be like if they were free to define their own values, order their own priorities and decide their own fate. The Female Eunuch was one feminist text that did not argue for equality." in Greer, Germaine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Eunuch

Breton‟s conception of the femme-enfant as an enchanting, liminal and rebellious figure has often been dismissed as a conservative, and ultimately sexist, idealisation. According to Whitney Chadwick, the surrealist search for the woman-child' was one for a figure whose presence 'inevitably, and perhaps more than any other single factor,' worked 'to exclude woman artists from the possibility of a profound personal identification with the theoretical side of Surrealism.
www.surrealismcentre.ac.uk/papersofsurr ... iles/McAra 13.9.11.pdf

---- oh well , finely someone agrees on this imposture-thing (imo)
Other controversial points in this book include Greer's opposition to accepting male-to-female transsexuals as women: "Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognise as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex. No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight. The insistence that man-made women be accepted as women is the institutional expression of the mistaken conviction that women are defective males."



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26 Dec 2014, 12:22 pm

My wife laughs at me when I point out the average-looking women in commercials (as opposed to the too-perfect fashion models), and say something like, "They're finally starting to use real women!"

I agree with the OP, women are otherwise portraying sexy lust-interests for the male hero to persue, or helpless damsels for the hero to rescue. Either way, it seems that the female lead will eventually reward the hero with sex, and they all live happily ever after.

A most notable exception was Ripley from the 'Alien' franchise.

A movie, TV program, or even a commercial is much more believable when the women (and the men) look and act like people I know and encounter every day. I'm really tired of the seemingly endless parade of buff men and busty women who can survive a disaster with perfect hair and their makeup intact.

I would really like to see a program where the people aren't so artificial, and where they face real-life consequences of their actions.


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Pizzagal3000
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26 Dec 2014, 12:33 pm

IncredibleFrog wrote:
I'm not a feminist. But it does get on my nerves when I can't find a single woman on television I can actually relate to. I know I must not be the only one.

Women seem to either fall into two categories according to media: super sexy, direct, feminist icon, or some damsel in distress love-interest thrown in for sex appeal. I get that women are embracing their sexualities, and that's great. But there's more to women than just sex.

Even women who are supposed to be strong and independent (I could list pretty much any of the popular women singers right now) are so hung up on looking, and talking, and being sexy, they are almost as bland personality wise as the previously mentioned damsel in distress.

I want to see some women with actual personalities. You can be sexy if you want, just please, please show me some other adjectives with which to describe you!


Believe it or not, men are also subjected to poor portrayal in the media.

Especially in commercials. They are often made to look foolish and the female is the voice of reason.

There is a guy that made a 21 video series on it for youtube about that.

It actually pissed me off. Cause there were innumerable examples of this.

While I am well aware women face stereotypes, recognize that men also face sexism and thus the existence of MRA is essential for men.

I mean, look at Maury.

The guys on there always get booed. Even if they are the ones that did not cheat but the women admit it! The women recieve sympathy yet the men get all the darn backlash!

Men are often displayed as being the serial killers, the rapists, the robbers, the terrorists, the child molestors, the sociopaths, the sexoholics....the list goes on and on.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. :x


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26 Dec 2014, 1:11 pm

I have wondered about the media portrayal of women, and view it as objectification disguised as sexual liberation. Take Miley Cyrus, Beyonce, Katie Price, to me their category of women are realists, women are often portrayed as objects and there is money to be made if you have the appearance that sells. I assume they take the attitude of ‘it’s only some skin’, and play the game, knowing how the real world works.

The benefit to them is monetary, for impressionable young star struck women though there aren’t the same financial rewards, but they can still aspire to being a desirable object. Becoming the absolute consumer is a good method to achieve this. The access to porn has altered the perception of sex, a few clicks and Ta-da, as much objectification as desired for gratification purposes.



Pizzagal3000
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26 Dec 2014, 1:26 pm

Amity wrote:
I have wondered about the media portrayal of women, and view it as objectification disguised as sexual liberation. Take Miley Cyrus, Beyonce, Katie Price, to me their category of women are realists, women are often portrayed as objects and there is money to be made if you have the appearance that sells. I assume they take the attitude of ‘it’s only some skin’, and play the game, knowing how the real world works.

The benefit to them is monetary, for impressionable young star struck women though there aren’t the same financial rewards, but they can still aspire to being a desirable object. Becoming the absolute consumer is a good method to achieve this. The access to porn has altered the perception of sex, a few clicks and Ta-da, as much objectification as desired for gratification purposes.


I agree with this. While I dislike all of these women you mentioned, with a passion, :evil: I do believe they are sexualized to the point where it helps them alot to be highly marketed to not only young males, but even young females. The females look up to these buffoons and help destroy society and its future.

These women bring that on themselves. Its so sad. They will do whatever it takes to gain some temporary fame and fortune. Even betraying their beliefs(think about Katie and Beyonce...Smh).

And its a fact that women do think about sex just as much as men. However, its alot easier for us(females) to mask it and pretend we aren't interested when we really are(playing hard to get).

Alot of men, even NTs do not know these things. And there are lots of things women do not know about males.

Such as, they do not have sex constantly on their mind. And it has been speculated that Aspergers/autism is an extreme form of the "male" mind. Women who have autism are more systematical than NT women. This is based from the very intelligently analytical book "Male and Female Brains: The Truth About Autism and The Essential Difference by Simon Baron-Cohen.


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26 Dec 2014, 1:41 pm

In the hero's journey archetype there are definite roles for women,
the love interest being one.

Its a lack of imagination also, and women either have to be ass-kickers like buffy or sexy.



Pizzagal3000
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26 Dec 2014, 4:05 pm

slenkar wrote:
In the hero's journey archetype there are definite roles for women,
the love interest being one.

Its a lack of imagination also, and women either have to be ass-kickers like buffy or sexy.


Yes, it is because of this lack of imagination why when I switch the tv on it immediately becomes background noise while really "watching" shows like Fate/Stay Night, Claymore, Grappler Baki or Attitude Era WWF on the internet among a multiplicity of rich content that could never be discovered on tv. :roll:


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IncredibleFrog
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26 Dec 2014, 10:57 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
There should be more androgynous females, such as myself...that said I don't really concern myself about whether or not I relate to women on t.v, most t.v nowadays seems to be garbage anyways.

I do like those two actresses that used to play the news-reporters for weekend update or whatever on Saturday night live always thought they where funny and didn't/don't seem to be over the top feminine.


I never watch tv myself, accept occasionally with friends. And when I do, that's when I feel annoyed with it. Because I feel like it influences the way other people think about women. But I guess there isn't much to do about it.

Funny enough, some of the older shows had female characters I thought were stronger than the ones they have now. Like Lucy from "I Love Lucy", or the moms from "Soap". Of course, they also had the opposite too.



IncredibleFrog
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26 Dec 2014, 11:05 pm

Pizzagal3000 wrote:
IncredibleFrog wrote:
I'm not a feminist. But it does get on my nerves when I can't find a single woman on television I can actually relate to. I know I must not be the only one.

Women seem to either fall into two categories according to media: super sexy, direct, feminist icon, or some damsel in distress love-interest thrown in for sex appeal. I get that women are embracing their sexualities, and that's great. But there's more to women than just sex.

Even women who are supposed to be strong and independent (I could list pretty much any of the popular women singers right now) are so hung up on looking, and talking, and being sexy, they are almost as bland personality wise as the previously mentioned damsel in distress.

I want to see some women with actual personalities. You can be sexy if you want, just please, please show me some other adjectives with which to describe you!


Believe it or not, men are also subjected to poor portrayal in the media.

Especially in commercials. They are often made to look foolish and the female is the voice of reason.

There is a guy that made a 21 video series on it for youtube about that.

It actually pissed me off. Cause there were innumerable examples of this.

While I am well aware women face stereotypes, recognize that men also face sexism and thus the existence of MRA is essential for men.

I mean, look at Maury.

The guys on there always get booed. Even if they are the ones that did not cheat but the women admit it! The women recieve sympathy yet the men get all the darn backlash!

Men are often displayed as being the serial killers, the rapists, the robbers, the terrorists, the child molestors, the sociopaths, the sexoholics....the list goes on and on.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. :x


I agree, men face annoying stereotypes too. Obviously as woman, I'm just more likely to notice the way females are portrayed more. At least, men tend to have more personality in their roles at (not always though). They can be strong, or funny, or loners, or other things that women aren't usually shown as.

Unfortunately, as far as portrayal of criminals goes, that is accurate though. Obviously, the vast majority of men aren't criminals. However, the vast majority of criminals are men. I'm not sure why this is. I took a criminology class once and it interested me to see that this was the case, as I thought it was mostly a stereotype. They didn't go into a lot of detail on this as it was just an intro class though.

For me, I'd like to see more stereotype breaking women AND men being portrayed. It makes it hard for those who don't fit into the narrow confines of American gender. And as an avid horror movie watcher, I like seeing woman criminals and killers. :)



IncredibleFrog
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26 Dec 2014, 11:09 pm

Amity wrote:
I have wondered about the media portrayal of women, and view it as objectification disguised as sexual liberation. Take Miley Cyrus, Beyonce, Katie Price, to me their category of women are realists, women are often portrayed as objects and there is money to be made if you have the appearance that sells. I assume they take the attitude of ‘it’s only some skin’, and play the game, knowing how the real world works.

The benefit to them is monetary, for impressionable young star struck women though there aren’t the same financial rewards, but they can still aspire to being a desirable object. Becoming the absolute consumer is a good method to achieve this. The access to porn has altered the perception of sex, a few clicks and Ta-da, as much objectification as desired for gratification purposes.


Thank you, this exactly what I'm talking about! Being really "liberated" to me, is a woman who is CEO of a company, or a movie director, an artist, or any other "typically male" job, that doesn't require appealing to people on a sexual level to earn money. I think that even prostitutes and strippers are more "liberated" than these women. At least, they aren't being controlled by a multi-billion dollar industry, and they get to make their own decisions.



IncredibleFrog
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26 Dec 2014, 11:17 pm

traven wrote:
"La femme-enfant" or .....the lucratif construct of it.
La femme-enfant est plutôt bien vue dans la société/ The woman-child is rather welllooked upon in society.(harhar, how come, would that possibly be of any interest ?)

What does the term “femme enfant” mean to you?
Simon Porte: The femme enfant is this very French idea of a woman who never quite left childhood behind. You couldn’t quite tell whether she is a girl, a woman, or a girl trying to be a woman. It could be a 20 year-old girl or a 40 year-old woman who, taking her kids to school, realises in some ways she is more childish than they are. My own mother is a bit like that, but she always expresses it in a very subtle way. A true femme enfant is never too obvious or exaggerated.
Why did you decide to make a film about her?
Simon Porte: The femme enfant was the inspiration behind my collection. I’m quite obsessed with the idea of childhood, the fun, the playfulness, the carelessness… and I think it always shows in my collections; but this season, as I was designing, I started to imagine all this story about a young femme enfant who lives like children live: she plays, she draws, she eats… and I translated all that into the naïve shapes, the colour contrasts and the oversized graphic shapes of the collection. And, since the collection started with a story, it quite naturally turned into a short film.
http://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/art ... mme-enfant

"In 1970 the movement was called 'Women's Liberation' or, contemptuously, 'Women's Lib'. When the name 'Libbers' was dropped for 'Feminists' we were all relieved. What none of us noticed was that the ideal of liberation was fading out with the word. We were settling for equality. Liberation struggles are not about assimilation but about asserting difference, endowing that difference with dignity and prestige, and insisting on it as a condition of self-definition and self-determination. The aim of women's liberation is to do as much for female people as has been done for colonized nations. Women's liberation did not see the female's potential in terms of the male's actual; the visionary feminists of the late sixties and early seventies knew that women could never find freedom by agreeing to live the lives of unfree men. Seekers after equality clamoured to be admitted to smoke-filled male haunts. Liberationists sought the world over for clues as to what women's lives could be like if they were free to define their own values, order their own priorities and decide their own fate. The Female Eunuch was one feminist text that did not argue for equality." in Greer, Germaine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Eunuch

Breton‟s conception of the femme-enfant as an enchanting, liminal and rebellious figure has often been dismissed as a conservative, and ultimately sexist, idealisation. According to Whitney Chadwick, the surrealist search for the woman-child' was one for a figure whose presence 'inevitably, and perhaps more than any other single factor,' worked 'to exclude woman artists from the possibility of a profound personal identification with the theoretical side of Surrealism.
www.surrealismcentre.ac.uk/papersofsurr ... iles/McAra 13.9.11.pdf

---- oh well , finely someone agrees on this imposture-thing (imo)
Other controversial points in this book include Greer's opposition to accepting male-to-female transsexuals as women: "Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognise as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex. No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight. The insistence that man-made women be accepted as women is the institutional expression of the mistaken conviction that women are defective males."


This is a highly interesting post. I took an anthropology class, and I noticed that while there were an abundance of male-women, there were hardly any women-men. I wondered why this might be? However, some Native American societies did recognize women-men. There are others as well, but that's the one I remember at the moment.

In some societies, during times of war women were allowed to fight and were treated as men. However, as soon as the war was over they were expected to be "normal" women again. They would not often get the same honors as men, such as war medals, or privileges.

One interesting woman was the favorite wife of the first emperor of China. During times of war, she would lead the troops into battle. She would go back to being a court wife after battle. When she died, the emperor was so devestated he spent all of his time in mourning from her, and slowly let his power slip away.