Moral dilemma: efficient lie versus embattled truth?

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dianthus
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12 Sep 2016, 4:01 pm

BirdInFlight wrote:
Today I repeated everything I said, but he only left when someone's dog randomly peed on the backpack he had put down on the ground, lol.


LOL, that is hilarious, and totally serves him right. Sorry you are having to deal with this.

I've always thought the same way, I can't blame a guy for trying - ONCE - but once is enough. However I'm getting to the point where, if I didn't do anything to invite it, then even just once is really pushing it with me.

Sometimes it doesn't even make a difference if you are blunt, it doesn't phase them at all.

A guy come out to my house last year to repair something, then several months later out of nowhere started calling and texting me as if we were buddies. I didn't even remember who he was at first. I talked to him once just to be neighborly but it was really weird so after that I was hoping he would just take the hint if I didn't respond. Nope...and one day awhile back he called my house, and I just picked up thinking it was probably my mother, instead, OH NO crap, it's that guy again! He said some things that could be taken humorously but none the less were kind of creepy. Since then haven't heard a peep out of him and I'm hoping he just leaves me alone. But it would not surprise me if he turned up at my house one day, or flagged me down in a parking lot somewhere. I just hate the feeling that he's going to keep turning up like a bad penny.



BirdInFlight
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12 Sep 2016, 4:13 pm

Lol, I know, right?! It was hilarious how that dog just did that -- I have an affinity for animals, maybe the dog sensed that this guy was pissing me off so decided to take that theme and act on it, hahahah! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The more I think about that part of the encounter, the more I'm laughing now! I mean, seriously, a dog peed on his bag and stopped the whole show! Gooood doggy! :lol:

That guy who keeps calling you -- yikes. See this is the thing; once is already pushing it, more than that is beyond the pale, if someone has made it clear they're not up for it.

Persistence is a great quality when applied to lots of things in life -- job seeking, education, reading the classics, designing and building something, perfecting something, learning a new skill, passing one's driving test.

But when it comes to pursuing a person, respecting a "No" is actually far more important.


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On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

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dianthus
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12 Sep 2016, 5:02 pm

That dog was probably sensing that guy was being a jerk and came to your aid. lol That is just priceless, like a scene from a movie. I would have busted out laughing and done it so obnoxiously he would be too embarrassed to ever come around again.

That guy who was calling me - to be fair I never really made it clear that he shouldn't call anymore - but he never really made it clear what he was after either so I could say something specific. I was hoping to take the route of total avoidance. I just don't know how or why he got the idea to start calling me, when he came out to my house before I thought he was kind of rude, and he annoyed me so much I actually thought about complaining to his company. But I don't like to offend anyone who knows where I live.

He kept talking about seeing cars that looked like mine and going over to see if it was me. The sad thing is if I run into him somewhere I probably won't even recognize him due to my face blindness.

I hope that guy doesn't bother you anymore, but if he does, maybe you could remind him loudly of the dog pee and ask if he got it all washed out okay? lol



kraftiekortie
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12 Sep 2016, 5:31 pm

Yeah...the guy got it, didn't he?

Just tell him you're not interested. And be cold about it, but not mean. Rather blunt. If he's persistent, maybe make up some distant boyfriend or something.

In this society--and don't tell me they don't---guys have to take the initiative; otherwise, they get nowhere in romance.

I don't blame the guy for trying; I blame him for not taking the hint.



AspE
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12 Sep 2016, 5:43 pm

I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.



kraftiekortie
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12 Sep 2016, 5:48 pm

I can understand the OP wanting to be left alone.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to be beset by somebody if I'm not in the mood to talk to somebody.

I've experienced this. I've had to be diplomatic. But I've also had to be sort of blunt, too.



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12 Sep 2016, 7:36 pm

AspE wrote:
I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.


Why would you suggest that? She's made it pretty clear she is not interested in dating the guy at all.


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AspE
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12 Sep 2016, 8:33 pm

wilburforce wrote:
AspE wrote:
I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.


Why would you suggest that? She's made it pretty clear she is not interested in dating the guy at all.

That's how most things start.



wilburforce
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12 Sep 2016, 9:04 pm

AspE wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
AspE wrote:
I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.


Why would you suggest that? She's made it pretty clear she is not interested in dating the guy at all.

That's how most things start.


Well, it sounds like this guy's behaviour is how stalking starts. Is that what you meant?

Seriously, she flat out stated she is not interested in this guy. Let it go. Or are you the guy she's talking about that can't take a hint? :lol:


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dianthus
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12 Sep 2016, 9:40 pm

AspE wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
AspE wrote:
I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.


Why would you suggest that? She's made it pretty clear she is not interested in dating the guy at all.

That's how most things start.


Did you even read this thread at all?



BirdInFlight
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13 Sep 2016, 6:41 am

AspE -- I know what you're saying, and I understand where you're coming from by saying that. Some things do start from one person not being that interested while the other person presses the issue. And sometimes, some people don't really know what they want -- they think they're not that into being dated but really they have half an open mind about it.

Also, almost every romantic-comedy movie starts with one partner being very opposed to hooking up with the other partner.

However, this is not a rom com movie, this is my real life. And also, because of my age and experience, I have come to very much know my own mind and what I want. I've gone very much past the stage in life where I might have been open to going out with this guy anyway.


I've done that a lot! Trust me, my whole younger life was devoted to pushing myself into doing a lot of things I really didn't feel like doing. Including -- yes -- going out with guys I had no interest in but I was trying to give everything and everyone a chance anyway.

Trust me, I've lived that life. It's not like I've never done such a thing -- sadly I used to let that be how I lived all the time, and it wasn't always a good thing.

I've come a long way in being able to learn that it's okay to make the decision that I'm not up for something.

That should be respected and celebrated, not invalidated. I've invalidated myself in this manner for many years of my younger life, and it was a long road to learning to know what I want at this later stage --- and people are STILL trying to tell me what THEY want is what I need to do?

NO. Just no.

I've grown up enough to know very, very well when I want something in my life and when I don't. I've learned a lot by BEING that person who just went along with things, and this is now a time in my life when I've learned that's not how I want to live anymore -- and in that sense I'm actually far happier than I've ever been, in this department of life.

I'm sick of going along with stuff other people want from me but which I don't want. There's a point in life where you learn why that's no good for you.

There is also the problem that, as a woman on the spectrum, I've come to realize there is still a certain vulnerability about me that certain people can pick up on, even when I think I'm coming across as confident and strong. I have probably never been able to lose that "scent."

This man seems to be attempting to needle and wheedle into that.

I'm onto it. I'm sorry but this is something I've learned, and I'm not a kid anymore, and the fact that I'm more aware should be a good thing, not something someone is trying to invalidate.

I appreciate your input as it's a valid counterpoint, truly it is. But at this stage in my life, the very last thing I want and need is to go out with random strangers I have no interest in just because they want me to. Been there done that, doesn't work well at all for me, or ultimately for them.

I seriously don't want or need to go out with anyone. There is no room in my life for that, on several levels.

Now I'm explaining stuff I shouldn't HAVE TO justify -- just like with that guy.

Seriously, why can't anyone just respect, right away, that when someone says no, they really know they mean no?

That's why I started this thread with a question about perhaps lying right away is the only solution, precisely because some people won't take just a no thank you not interested for an answer.

Although even lying about being taken does not actually work with this sort of person, either.

I wish people would respect that another person does happen to know what they want and know what they're talking about when they say they are not interested.

Would you keep wanting the person refusing the beef dinner on grounds of being a vegetarian, to just go ahead and eat it anyway?


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If you have a problem with something I post, something I believe, something I do or say, something in my sig, or something I am stupid enough to share that I'm struggling with and being caused pain by -- TELL ME TO MY FACE so that I can defend myself, instead of see you make a mockery of or a dig about it later.

On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

ASD Level 1, PTSD. Plus anxiety with panic attacks, mild sub-clinical situational depression -- and a massive case of sheer freakin' BURNOUT.

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dianthus
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13 Sep 2016, 9:00 am

Very well said BirdInFlight. Not that there is any reason why you should have to explain any further.

I know sometimes the trap I fall into is I think if I keep explaining, the other person will somehow understand. Sometimes they just don't get it.

BirdInFlight wrote:
Seriously, why can't anyone just respect, right away, that when someone says no, they really know they mean no?


Probably because there are times when they have said no themselves, and changed their mind later, or they have seen someone else change their mind. I work in sales and of course we are taught not to accept no for an answer. There are times when it makes sense to keep talking, and times when it is just going to annoy someone. It's not always easy to know the difference.

I think asking for a date is pretty straightforward though - especially when the interest was uninvited! - once is enough.

You made some good points, that people don't always know what they want, and sometimes it's understandable that a person might wonder about that and keep asking. But when you know for sure, and you just don't want to be rude or hurtful about it, it can feel like they are taking advantage of your kindness.

It confuses me that people just don't "get it" when I say what I want, or say no - and I think they might misread that confusion as an opening to keep trying to talk me round to something...when I'm actually really perplexed that they could be so dense. lol

Quote:
Also, almost every romantic-comedy movie starts with one partner being very opposed to hooking up with the other partner.


True, and I think that's unfortunate...there are better ways to model relationships...but it seems like this is what excites a lot of people, the idea of someone's resistance being worn down until they eventually give in, and the entertainment industry really caters to that fantasy and encourages it.



BenderRodriguez
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13 Sep 2016, 9:12 am

AspE wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
AspE wrote:
I would never give you the advice you are looking for. Maybe you should go out with him, you aren't that old. There's no pressure for it to work, even negative pressure to make it not work, so you could be yourself.


Why would you suggest that? She's made it pretty clear she is not interested in dating the guy at all.

That's how most things start.

She made it crystal clear she doesn't want to "start" anything with this guy or anyone else. Some people prefer to be single and are perfectly happy that way.


To BirdInFlight : I know you might hate this but the pragmatist in me thinks it would be easier to just lie about it. I know it sucks and I'm a horrible liar (hate doing it too), but I've noticed that a lot of people are truly incapable of understanding that we aren't all identical just by virtue of being human, and can't tell the difference between statistics and real life individuals. Wanting to live in a different way from the norm or being happy in an "unconventional" way comes across to such people as lying (ironic, huh?), playing hard to get, claiming you're "special" and so on. Because of this, they'll keep pestering you and try to convince you that's not how you "really" think or feel, or that you'll change your mind if you would just give it a try :roll: (for example people who don't have children by choice are often subjected to incredibly rude and intrusive questions and even insults)

There's no valid reason why you should have to defend and justify your choices and lifestyle in front of a stranger, but this seems to be a pervasive attitude that's stupid, patronising, rude and intrusive, but paradoxically more or less socially acceptable.

Experience taught me that in such situations I basically have two options: to lie or to confront. As a man, it's easier for me to get away with being perceived as rude or brusque and I can deal with the consequences, while lying is less risky and will usually end things quickly.


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BirdInFlight
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13 Sep 2016, 9:41 am

Dianthus and BenderRodriguez, thank you so much for 'getting it'! Thank you.

This is all why I'm wondering if indeed a complete lie would have "nipped in the bud" all of this. To just say bald-faced, "Sorry, married" might just shut down even a persistent person.

On the other hand dianthus makes a good point that some people don't even care if they're told you're married, it just makes them pursue the challenge for an affair!

I think there's no winning in a situation like this with a really determined person, like it turns out this guy seems to be.

I agree with you Bender that it's time now to get confrontational.

I'm going to have to be deadly clear. I've been kind and polite even while believing I was still none the less being very clear.

But I think it's true to say that being kind and polite is still unfortunately taken as some kind of "opening."

At this point, all I want is to get this guy to just quit. Whatever it takes is now what I'll do, even if that means being outright rude. I can be rude, but usually it's because it's been pushed to that place -- and now it pretty much has been pushed to that place.

But it's a pity it has to get that far in the first place. This is what I'm upset about; that nobody takes your word for anything right off the bat. I'm sick of that kind of disrespect, because it is a form of disrespect and invalidation of the person's needs or wishes.

This guy was even standing there behind me yesterday without even saying a word, until I happened to glance about me and there he was. I don't even know how long he had been there watching me.

I mean, this is stalker territory to ME now. Someone reading this who wants to ask someone out in their own life won't agree. But to me, the person this guy is doing this to when I told him I'm not interested, this is creepy now.

Yesterday was the second separate day on which he showed up there and started "pursuing" me. On the first day he showed up twice -- the very first time I even met him, and then about an hour later in a different location in the same park. Then yesterday. This is now twice he's been "back". It has to stop now.

Like I say, the quality of "persistence" is admirable when applied to an abstract goal -- when someone keeps on trying again to get their drivers license, keeps on trying to get that degree, keeps on going on job interviews until they get a job, keeps on learning something that's hard for them to learn.

But when applied to another human being's wishes it's pushing boundaries. I'm a human being not a driving test, and I have a say in this.


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If you have a problem with something I post, something I believe, something I do or say, something in my sig, or something I am stupid enough to share that I'm struggling with and being caused pain by -- TELL ME TO MY FACE so that I can defend myself, instead of see you make a mockery of or a dig about it later.

On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

ASD Level 1, PTSD. Plus anxiety with panic attacks, mild sub-clinical situational depression -- and a massive case of sheer freakin' BURNOUT.

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Last edited by BirdInFlight on 13 Sep 2016, 9:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

DataB4
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13 Sep 2016, 9:44 am

BirdInFlight, great post from a few hours ago. I especially like the bit about trying things but also knowing what you want. These two don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll never understand the people who change their minds, seemingly on a whim, about stuff that seems essential to who they are, like having children or suddenly liking someone because that someone doesn't take no for an answer.



BirdInFlight
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13 Sep 2016, 10:01 am

Thanks, DataB4 and thank you for also getting it. Being that this "encounter" has now repeated itself over two separate days and three separate "conversations" to put it loosely, my frustration is not fading. I know that there probably will be a next time and now I just need to really script out what I need to say now.

The added frustration is that I get a lot of random "chit chatty" encounters in this park already, although not from people hitting on me. But even those are difficult for me to handle and are "enough" to be getting on with, so when this guy started this heavy duty persistence it has really overburdened my coping.


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If you have a problem with something I post, something I believe, something I do or say, something in my sig, or something I am stupid enough to share that I'm struggling with and being caused pain by -- TELL ME TO MY FACE so that I can defend myself, instead of see you make a mockery of or a dig about it later.

On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

ASD Level 1, PTSD. Plus anxiety with panic attacks, mild sub-clinical situational depression -- and a massive case of sheer freakin' BURNOUT.

~ ~ ~