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Gammeldans
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31 Jan 2023, 12:32 pm

I am sometimes at a place with people who have ASD diagnoses. Some of them, including me, play or sing music.
It seems that most of them find it difficult or uninteresting to play in a band with other people.
Many of them want to record their own music. Perhaps they rather record than jam together. That is probably another isdue than just ASD issues.
They just want to create stuff rather just jam.

Perhaps having this recording process is a thing that has to do with ASD?

I am aware that they might have creative ideas that they want to focus on and find it hard to be creative in a band. You do not have full control of the creative process in a band unless you find the people who are willing to do exactly as you tell them.

Is it hard for aspies to be creative unless they have full controll of the creative process?
For me it might he easier if I do not have full controll. It is hard to come up with ideas all by myself.

It also seems that when you play in a band you might have to be part of the comping section.

Do aspies find it boring or difficult to be a part of it as they are not group people?
I myself like to be a part of it sometimes.
It seems that many aspies find that being part of groups like that makes you loose your individuality.

I am wondering if playing music with other aspies can be difficult as they are not group people. They are individualistic (I can be that as well) even if they care about other people.
What do you think?
Group activites can be too tough for aspies?



ToughDiamond
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31 Jan 2023, 10:35 pm

Yes in my youth I was very much like that. The first guy I collaborated with quit after our first recording session because he felt I'd taken over the whole process and only wanted him for his tape recorder. Looking back, he was correct. Admittedly he didn't have much talent but then neither did I.

I formed another band with other school friends. Don't know how I did it, as I've never been very proactive with people, but I really wanted to be in a band. I wasn't quite so bossy and selfish after the first experience, but I was kind of using them for my own purposes. I really wanted to do everything myself because naturally I liked my own choice of songs best, and I couldn't fully control how they played their parts. But with only one pair of hands, naturally I couldn't play everything. I was always messing with tape recorders trying to figure out a way of multi-tracking the instruments, but they were only cheap tape recorders so the sound quality wasn't very good.

Eventually I managed to get passable multi-track results, and I formed a new band as well. This time I wasn't so welded to the idea of controlling everything, as I could always record stuff in my own way with my own multi-track recording machines, but I was still quite domineering in the band.

As time went by I began to see performing in a band as a higher form of the art, and I got less and less domineering. Eventually I kind of rebelled against myself and started to give other musicians most of the control over things. I was often just being the recording engineer with a bit of my own musical input, focussing on getting the results to the liking of the other musicians.

But it remains a problem to this day. When I hear what other band members are playing I often thing "I'd do it differently." But not always, and even when it's so, I usually let it go and just accept that it'll never be quite how I'd have done it. Sometimes of course a musician plays something that surpasses my skills and I'm glad of it. Nonetheless, I don't often end up thinking the music we've created is as good as what it might be if I had more control over what we did. But there's no ideal solution for it. I hate it when people are too prescriptive with me, so my conscience won't let me get bossy any more, and I'm afraid that if I did try to take over then the others wouldn't like it, and there'd be too much conflict of egos.

Still, I get a lot out of jamming with other musicians, especially when they play well. And I like the ethos of diluting my own personal ambitions into the whole group and seeing that the others are having a good time too and getting better at playing. And these days I've got much better multi-track equipment so I've always got the option of doing things completely my way. I've also begun to realise that my own ideas alone don't necessarily work out great, and that it would be good to let other people share the creative thing and, very importantly, do some of the hard work - it's actually a very long and hard process for one person to create a really good recording with several instruments in it. I started out thinking "wow, I can do anything," and I ended up thinking "dammit, I've got to do everything."

I often wonder if it's much different for successful bands. In the case of The Beatles, John and Paul were the ones who were calling most of the shots, and there was a lot of rivalry and competition between those two, so I rather think that sharing everything perfectly is quite a rare thing with people. Yet I'm never quite satisfied when the power isn't equal, even when I've got more of it that the others. I suppose life is a compromise.



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31 Jan 2023, 11:44 pm

I would play in a band if I was into that sort of thing. I quite like working in a group, as I think I would stay focused better.


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Gammeldans
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01 Feb 2023, 4:08 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
Yes in my youth I was very much like that. The first guy I collaborated with quit after our first recording session because he felt I'd taken over the whole process and only wanted him for his tape recorder. Looking back, he was correct. Admittedly he didn't have much talent but then neither did I.

I formed another band with other school friends. Don't know how I did it, as I've never been very proactive with people, but I really wanted to be in a band. I wasn't quite so bossy and selfish after the first experience, but I was kind of using them for my own purposes. I really wanted to do everything myself because naturally I liked my own choice of songs best, and I couldn't fully control how they played their parts. But with only one pair of hands, naturally I couldn't play everything. I was always messing with tape recorders trying to figure out a way of multi-tracking the instruments, but they were only cheap tape recorders so the sound quality wasn't very good.

Eventually I managed to get passable multi-track results, and I formed a new band as well. This time I wasn't so welded to the idea of controlling everything, as I could always record stuff in my own way with my own multi-track recording machines, but I was still quite domineering in the band.

As time went by I began to see performing in a band as a higher form of the art, and I got less and less domineering. Eventually I kind of rebelled against myself and started to give other musicians most of the control over things. I was often just being the recording engineer with a bit of my own musical input, focussing on getting the results to the liking of the other musicians.

But it remains a problem to this day. When I hear what other band members are playing I often thing "I'd do it differently." But not always, and even when it's so, I usually let it go and just accept that it'll never be quite how I'd have done it. Sometimes of course a musician plays something that surpasses my skills and I'm glad of it. Nonetheless, I don't often end up thinking the music we've created is as good as what it might be if I had more control over what we did. But there's no ideal solution for it. I hate it when people are too prescriptive with me, so my conscience won't let me get bossy any more, and I'm afraid that if I did try to take over then the others wouldn't like it, and there'd be too much conflict of egos.

Still, I get a lot out of jamming with other musicians, especially when they play well. And I like the ethos of diluting my own personal ambitions into the whole group and seeing that the others are having a good time too and getting better at playing. And these days I've got much better multi-track equipment so I've always got the option of doing things completely my way. I've also begun to realise that my own ideas alone don't necessarily work out great, and that it would be good to let other people share the creative thing and, very importantly, do some of the hard work - it's actually a very long and hard process for one person to create a really good recording with several instruments in it. I started out thinking "wow, I can do anything," and I ended up thinking "dammit, I've got to do everything."

I often wonder if it's much different for successful bands. In the case of The Beatles, John and Paul were the ones who were calling most of the shots, and there was a lot of rivalry and competition between those two, so I rather think that sharing everything perfectly is quite a rare thing with people. Yet I'm never quite satisfied when the power isn't equal, even when I've got more of it that the others. I suppose life is a compromise.

Why did you want to have full control? We're the other musicians really that bad? Or did ASD make it difficult to trust other people?

You mentioned that you liked recording your music. Was that more interesting than playing music together in a band, ie performing music?
I see so many people who rather record their osn music than just playing it. But why?

Recording to me is a bit like painting. You are creating something (whether it is a painting or a musical recording).
I myself don't care about recording at all.
I want to practice and then play the music. Recording music seems to be boring.

Perhaps many people with ASD actually care more about recording than playing? Perhaps they like the analytical part of recording music?
It seems to be a process that suit many aspies (although it is not a thing for me).
But why?



Gammeldans
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01 Feb 2023, 4:22 am

Joe90 wrote:
I would play in a band if I was into that sort of thing. I quite like working in a group, as I think I would stay focused better.

:?: :?: :?:



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01 Feb 2023, 5:33 am

When I have played in bands, I was content to go along with whatever the others wanted. To me, it was more important to work together to create music than it was to be in control. We never recorded anything, although we were live on radio once. I suppose that was recorded by the radio station.


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01 Feb 2023, 5:43 am

I've never played music with others but whenever I've tried to collaborate with others on creative work it's gone badly. I usually have such a clear vision in my head of how the finished thing should be that I struggle to accept others input.


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01 Feb 2023, 5:58 am

I’ve been in and out of bands for years. Nearly gave up the day job at one point. There’s nothing better than playing live in front of a large crowd. Recording is boring boring boring… whether on a home set up or in a professional studio. I always wore earplugs (a good idea anyway) and dark glasses on stage, but most of the noise and flashing lights are out front.
The downside is having to deal with other people. A percentage of other musicians are a-holes and I can’t deal with it any more. I believe that this is the case whether you are aspie or NT, you still have to deal with them. The biggest problem is not musical differences but ambition mismatch.
It can be great, I think there is such a thing as the perfect band, but only perfect for a time.
I was quite happy to play music I didn’t like. What I didn’t like was when other band members hadn’t done their homework and practised properly… you can see it in their eyes.
And… it’s always better to be the least talented member of the band… you can improve with enough hard work.


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01 Feb 2023, 7:06 am

Gammeldans wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I would play in a band if I was into that sort of thing. I quite like working in a group, as I think I would stay focused better.

:?: :?: :?:


What don't you understand?


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Gammeldans
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01 Feb 2023, 12:03 pm

Trueno wrote:
I’ve been in and out of bands for years. Nearly gave up the day job at one point. There’s nothing better than playing live in front of a large crowd. Recording is boring boring boring… whether on a home set up or in a professional studio. I always wore earplugs (a good idea anyway) and dark glasses on stage, but most of the noise and flashing lights are out front.
The downside is having to deal with other people. A percentage of other musicians are a-holes and I can’t deal with it any more. I believe that this is the case whether you are aspie or NT, you still have to deal with them. The biggest problem is not musical differences but ambition mismatch.
It can be great, I think there is such a thing as the perfect band, but only perfect for a time.
I was quite happy to play music I didn’t like. What I didn’t like was when other band members hadn’t done their homework and practised properly… you can see it in their eyes.
And… it’s always better to be the least talented member of the band… you can improve with enough hard work.

I have a question about this:
Are you saying that in a band people have different ambitions and different things that they find important and this can create problems?

When I play with others I find that they have different things that they want to focus on.
I might care about the polka feel whereas someone else might not. It is another thing if I play with dance musicians. They care about the polka feel if a tune is a polka.

Polka is an example. Some people might think the dance feel is boring or unimportant.
Sure we could jam together but it would be much harder if we try to do different things.

What do you say about this?



Gammeldans
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01 Feb 2023, 12:14 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
I've never played music with others but whenever I've tried to collaborate with others on creative work it's gone badly. I usually have such a clear vision in my head of how the finished thing should be that I struggle to accept others input.

Why would aspies want to be creative rather than jam together? Are we more into creativity than performing?
Are jamming too social for some of us?

I like to jam or play with people and be creative in that process. Creativity in groups is hatd for most aspies?



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01 Feb 2023, 12:18 pm

Ambition mismatch:

All I want to do is play live gigs, the bigger the audience the better.
The guitarist is scared s***less of playing crowds. He’s a really good guitarist but wants to play in a little hired hall in front of friends and family… no future in that.
The singer talks of conquering the world but doesn’t walk the walk. All he wants to do is record stuff and post it on Soundcloud.
The drummer is really good but just goes along with everything for an easy life.
Result: stagnation.

I have been in bands with serious musicians, we just went out and played gigs all over the country. It still goes wrong eventually, the BL starts to rip everyone off, can’t get a single weekend off in an entire year.


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kraftiekortie
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01 Feb 2023, 12:20 pm

This is such a hard business. Luck is always in the equation.

There are many destitute people of great ability, but little luck.



Gammeldans
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01 Feb 2023, 1:01 pm

Trueno wrote:
Ambition mismatch:

All I want to do is play live gigs, the bigger the audience the better.
The guitarist is scared s***less of playing crowds. He’s a really good guitarist but wants to play in a little hired hall in front of friends and family… no future in that.
The singer talks of conquering the world but doesn’t walk the walk. All he wants to do is record stuff and post it on Soundcloud.
The drummer is really good but just goes along with everything for an easy life.
Result: stagnation.

I have been in bands with serious musicians, we just went out and played gigs all over the country. It still goes wrong eventually, the BL starts to rip everyone off, can’t get a single weekend off in an entire year.

I wonder why you people even started the band at all.
I have had similar experiences ie people who want to do different things.
It's so bloody difficult to play with others when we have different goals but it is also difficult to stop playing and start talking about goals.



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06 Feb 2023, 8:23 pm

Gammeldans wrote:
Why did you want to have full control? We're the other musicians really that bad? Or did ASD make it difficult to trust other people?

I'm sure part of it was my ASD - it was a special interest, and my special interests had always been one-man projects. It just didn't occur to me that this new one had a huge social dimension. As with all my special interests I had a lot of strongly-held ideas about how I wanted to pursue my goal.

The others certainly learned how to do musical things that I wouldn't have been able to do, but my gut reaction was often that their timing and playing style was inaccurate and out of kilter with my "all-important" pre-conceived notions of these things. I probably had a stronger sense of precise timing, tuning and balance than they had. I was very rigid in my views, and pursued rigidly-controlled musical production values, and I'd go down analytical rabbit-holes to perfect these things, while their strengths were in having more versatility and openness to all kinds of ideas that just didn't fit my view of what we should be doing. I sensed that they had something I didn't have, but it took a long time for me to realise that my rigid, analytical ways of working were detracting from the artistic merit of the result, and that I was rather stifling our creativity with too much scientific control.

It was inherently a lot more difficult for me to learn songs that they'd written or picked as covers, compared to my own songs and covers which I automatically knew very well because I liked them so much. So I think a lot of it was to do with brain wiring, though I wouldn't deny some of it was sheer selfishness.
Quote:
You mentioned that you liked recording your music. Was that more interesting than playing music together in a band, ie performing music?
I see so many people who rather record their osn music than just playing it. But why?

It was more interesting to record my own music in some ways - the freedom to do whatever I wanted to in exactly my own way without fear of annoying anybody or getting pushed to the side of the thing. But there was always an excitement about performing and about being in a real band. For a long time I felt the live tapes weren't as good as the "studio" versions - partly because in a studio setting it was possible to tweak everything to perfection and re-record parts that had mistakes etc., and partly because to some extent the excitement of a live performance has visual, sensory and social elements that a sound recording of it doesn't capture. It was a good few years later that I heard Rory Gallagher's live and studio versions of some of his material, and realised that the live versions were (to my ears) a lot better. I think that really proved to me that the studio can give a result that, although technically very good, just somehow sounds sterile and boring.

Quote:
Recording to me is a bit like painting. You are creating something (whether it is a painting or a musical recording).
I myself don't care about recording at all.
I want to practice and then play the music. Recording music seems to be boring.

Recording can certainly get very tedious. Often by the time I've completed a multi-track recording I'm sick of it, having heard the same thing over and over so much. All the feeling of freshness gets completely lost. I suppose when the final result is played back to other people who've not heard it before then they hear a lot of the original features of interest, but I also think that when the artist has become bored, some of that feeling finds its way into the recorded sound. I've got a lot of first drafts of songs that, although incomplete and full of technical flaws, have a sense of life that the "proper" definitive recording lacks. I suspect the musicians who have the most fun are the ones who are talented enough to get their rendition right in one or two takes.

And I often fall into methods that have diminishing returns. I didn't like the buzzing noises from my guitar, so I used tighter strings to get over the problem, which made it much harder to play, so I ended up editing lots of little bits of recording together to cherry-pick the bits on which I'd been able to play it right. It took ages and it was barely about music at all. I've also never bought any expensive, really good, easy-to-play instruments, so I'm often using technology and tons of hard work to get round the inadequacies of using cheap instruments. It's amazing what can be achieved that way, but even with my strengths in that kind of thing I often get very fed up with it all. But unless I decide to spend a fortune on excellent gear, I'm rather stuck with it.

Quote:
Perhaps many people with ASD actually care more about recording than playing? Perhaps they like the analytical part of recording music?
It seems to be a process that suit many aspies (although it is not a thing for me).
But why?

I guess Aspies are a mixture, some preferring recording and some not. Maybe the ones who don't have got a neurotypical streak in the right place. I often think I'd like recording a lot more if I had a really talented producer and a good recording engineer so that I could focus on the artistic side of my part while they did all the technical stuff and the planning. But I'm such a perfectionist that it would be hard to find anybody who could do a job "good" enough to please me, unless they charged an awful lot of money for their services.



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06 Feb 2023, 8:28 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
I've never played music with others but whenever I've tried to collaborate with others on creative work it's gone badly. I usually have such a clear vision in my head of how the finished thing should be that I struggle to accept others input.

That's a refreshingly concise way of describing what happened to me in my early years with bands.