What is this I'm feeling?

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Hi,

I have this feeling that acting out of self interest is an evil act, while helping others is a good act (aspergian black/white thinking, definitely, but it's difficult for me to feel it differently).

I feel like people are mostly supposed to disregard what is good for others and instead exclusively think about what is good for themselves. Maybe they love their family, but they only love their family because it is good for themselves to have that family. If it was not good for them to have that family, they should no longer care for them. So in the end, they don't really love them, they only care about themselves. It makes me feel alone. It makes me feel like noone really cares for me, and that I'm not supposed to really care about anyone else but myself. That everyone is basically just "in it to win it". Is one long competition a good life?

How can I love others if they in the end only care about themselves? And how can they care about me when I'm supposed to care about nothing but myself?

I come to realise this is really the cause of the Executive dysfunction that I can sometimes experience. The more I act out of self interest the more evil I feel like I become. Hence, I'm reluctant to act too much out of self interest. Because I would end up caring about myself at the expense of my surroundings like everyone else does. But people are really supposed to act out of self interest all the time. That's my perpetual dilemma: you are supposed to be "evil". At least that's how I feel it is. It keeps nagging me. How can the world not be a bad place when it rewards those that are the most evil? I want to live in a good world, not a bad one.

I realise there is a problem thinking about actions as good/evil in the first place. Because there really is nothing that is good or evil, everything just is. It's just my subjective viewpoint. At the same time I feel like the persons that are less helpful and considerate towards others are more "evil" persons.

Is this thinking mainly due to a black/white thinking? Anyone recognize these thoughts?

I've also considered whether I just think about it too much. If I cared less about it I would care less about being evil like everyone else acting out of self interest does. I think people just care much less in general. But caring less is just getting more evil: care for yourself in expense of your surroundings.

It would mean very much to me to have this issue resolved! Thanks.

That's not true. Selfishness is just one valid way of securing your genes. Altruism is another tactic that some have wired into them. You have to have both in a society or it collapses. Though I remember that you think altruism is an evil act because it helps themselves... But it isn't as it doesn't harm anyone. Neither is selfishness, it can be quite morally neutral.
You should read what Dawkins said in "The selfish gene" about how altruism works. Or maybe you have and that's why you're worried as you've seen how altruism could be beneficial for someone.
Why does "doing something that in any way helps themselves" mean "evil" to you?

I have a feeling that the problem is that I view this issue in black and white.

I see acting out of self interest as one step of the way to becoming arrogant. Arrogance is evil to me - the arrogant people I've met in my life were very unpleasant, all of them. So the more you act out of self-interest the more evil you become. Confidence, but not arrogance, is just half-way arrogant or half-way evil, to me. It's like people are saying: "some evil is okay, but you shouldn't become too evil". Why is some evil then okay in the first place?

I have a difficult time handling the "gray area". How should I change my thinking in order to resolve this?

Yup, that's black and white thinking. You are seeing these things as mutually exclusive and requiring people to choose one or the other but no such choice needs to be made. They aren't mutually exclusive. An action can be good for others and good for oneself.

Here is a wiki on enlightened self interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest

Gawer, what you are discussing is a component of my special interest (Western cultures and politics), so perhaps I can elucidate this matter. At bottom, what you are describing is conflicting human tendencies.

On the one hand we have a strong urge to preserve ourselves, which means we have to compete for resources and mates. This is the selfish side of us.

On the other hand, we also have a strong urge to form cooperative societies. This is made possible by two human traits: Social abilities, which aspies are lacking; and morality, which is defined as those imperatives and taboos allowing individuals to cooperate, and thus form societies. I'm sure if you toy with this concept, you will see what I mean. Trusting others is problematic without non-negotiable moral standards.

The conflict arises because we can't exist--at least not very well--in complete isolation from one another; we need our society even if it doesn't always need us. But without taking care of ourselves, our society won't do us much good. It is a delicate balancing act, and one which frequently goes askew.

Thanks for the answers!

One of the problems is that I can understand this theoretically - that acting our of self interest can be good for both others and oneself. My experience is, however, that I really don't like people who are "in it for noone but themselves". They appear fake to me, because they have no problem lying and using others to get what they want. They take self-interest really far! I find it's difficult to completely ignore these personal experiences.

People can be really cruel...mock others in social settings, drag people down in the most mean ways. I cannot defend this behaviour no matter what some theory might suggest. It's too disgusting. I end up feeling that self-interest as a basic motivator is of the evil.

How far should one take this self-interest? Is it okay to lie in order to get what you want? It seems like a matter of degress. Arrogance seems to be the end-goal.

It seems to me that the general opinion is that there is something wrong with you if you are not willing to exploit others to some degree.

Hillel says, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, when?" Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14

I've always loved that saying. I first heard it on the movie "Yentl." I don't have much of an answer to your post, but you made me think of Hillel's famous quote and I had to post it! Anyway, I think we're all connected at a deeper level, so caring for yourself is in a sense caring for others also. People who are self-hating often are cruel to others as well.
Amelia

This has always been one of my main problems . I have a natural proclivity to want to do things because I want to do things " I want it , so I am going to get it" . The problem with this is I want desperately to be a good person and this sort of behaviour is just not me or the person I want to be.

It's like , I have a family . I want to spend all my time with my family ( that is what a good husband and father does ) At the same time all I want to do is get the hell away from them as there is things I want and seem to need to do and if people are there I can not do these things.

If I do the things I want this ends in me being depressed and I lose concentration because I should be with my family , If instead I spend the time with my family I feel myself getting overloaded by the whole family thing ( I take on all there problems , and the things they want to do get on my nerves ) this ends up with me losing it and going of on one . Then I inevitably get depressed for getting angry and screaming at them as I have always been of the opinion that getting angry and screaming at people you care about is the worst thing you can do .What makes it worse is that it is usually something small that breaks me .

In my mind everyone else is more important than me , but I am the most important person in the world.
It's like I am two people on different sides of an argument with no middle ground. I don't know what to do most of the time.

As they say " is this an aspie thing ?"

A certain degree of self interest will help you work for the common good.

That doesn't extend to being horrible to others because you get a kick.

These people are in the minority and you can avoid them if you wish.

Definitely Black & White thinking.
But remember, if you have no self-interest at all, your survival may be seriously in doubt. It took a long time, but I eventually came to realize that most issues are more shades of grey than what I grew up believing.
Also, you are likely overthinking the issue, though I certainly thought on it in philosphy classes in my college days. Its also sort of a paradox, since you need BOTH to function.

Sincerely,
Matthew

Still getting the hang of it.

it is an adult person's first responsibility to take care of themselves. anything less is irresponsible and "evil". Once you have got your self in a good place, looking for "win-win" situations where both sides of the deal benefit is healthy. if you must win at all costs to the detriment of others, this could be seen as evil. if you often let others win to your detriment, that would be a different form of "evil" known as self-destruction. self-destructive people are usually bitter and resentful.

people who take care of themselves often have more energy left over to help others than people who neglect themselves. look at bill gates

there is not usually a need to be dishonest in taking care of oneself.

It probably isn't helping my situation that my wife appears to be on the other end of the spectrum . She has a hard time with language ( she can't read and has a very simple vocabulary ). I usually have to resort to drawing a series of pictures to get my thoughts across to her . She has very black and white thinking too .

If I say I need time alone , all she hears is " I don't want to be with you " I don't know if that is autism or just a woman thing though ( don't know too much about women ) Something must be working though as we have been married over 21 years

I thought we resolved this issue in another thread. First of all, you seem to have forgotten that all acts are selfish acts. No living thing undertakes an act that is not driven by self-interest. If that is "evil," then all acts are evil, and if all acts are evil, the concept of an evil act is meaningless. Do you even have a definition of evil? The term is meaningless to me.

Second, as all acts are driven by self-interest, acts of kindness and consideration are also inherently selfish, regardless of whether or not they also benefit others. You cannot separate doing for others and doing for oneself. Your problem seems to be based on this false dichotomy. The problem is not black-and-white-thinking, because that implies that there are two separate concepts to think about (service to others vs. service to self), when in fact there is but one (service to others is service to self, or at least one manifestation of it).



This is not inherent to human nature, but is mainly a facet of certain "civilized" countries, in which those in power and their forbears have created extremely artificial living conditions, such that maximizing one's "success" in life requires maximizing the suffering of others (although the highest levels of "success" are actually only things that a sociopath would want, not things that are actually good for a human). It is probably easiest to see in tribal life that there is actually almost no difference between what is good for others and what is good for the self. The people live in harmony with nature (including not allowing the population to get out of control, thus minimizing deprivation), and each individual does not take more than she needs (no one lords large amounts of land, food, water, ore, etc over others). Competition is minimal, although never non-existent, because (as you perhaps forget) humans are animals, a part of nature. Competition is a natural law that none of us will ever escape in our lives. I think the issue is that you base your observations on certain sociopathic societies or individuals, rather than on "normal" societies.



It does not necessarily involve competition. If it benefits the parent to have and raise the child, and it also benefits the child to be raised by and be with the parent, each is benefiting without competing, although each is in the relationship for her own ends. The thing about animal nature is that the drive to satisfy one's needs and wants can complement the drive in others; that which benefits each individual also benefits others in a healthy society. It must be so in the balance; otherwise, the animal group destroys itself.

Furthermore, perhaps you ought to re-evaluate what you mean by "love." It is one of the most selfish things a person can experience, so I don't understand why you say that a person who has feelings for others for selfish reasons doesn't really love them. It is as if you have abstracted the meaning of the term away from human nature, when in fact human nature is the only thing that it can meaningfully be based on.

Same issue with "care" as with "love." The meaning of the word must be based on human nature, on self-interest.

What if you were brainwashed in such a way that you no longer served yourself? You probably wouldn't survive very long that way but I'm sure it could happen.

Hi everybody, thanks for you responses!

starkid, I know that you are right in what you are saying. My problem is actually getting to feel that serving your self-interest is "good". It's likely because it's more complex than I want it to be. I feel a need for a black/white solution when such a solution might not exist.

This is really a basic issue I face because I view the world differently.

A big part of the problem is that those who are willing to take self-interest very far, so far that they are willing to let others suffer, don't really get punished for it in my eyes. They just end up getting what they wanted.


SaveTigers, that's definitely a good quote. I thinks it's true.


The_Walrus, even if you can avoid them, it bothers me that they are not punished for taking self-interest too far.



Does anybody have advice as to how you could better accept "gray" solutions to such dilemmas instead of only the "black/white" solutions?

I have this need to feel like I'm a "good" person. Anybody else feel this way? Many seem to not care too much about that.

Last edited by qawer on 16 May 2013, 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.