Aspergers: Masculine or Feminine Traites?

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I have heard experts on the subject describe those with AS as having excessively masculine traits, and I have heard others say that people with AS have excessively feminine traits.

Hans Asperger himself hypothesized that people with AS had an extreme male way of thinking. Since females are naturally more interested in social activities, where as men tend to naturally be more interested in occupying themselves with things and ideas (math, chess, video games, etc.), this hypothesis would seem logical as many people with AS are highly preoccupied with specific interests that they not only enjoy spending a lot of time doing, but are also very good at. The tendency of people with AS not to be very good at social activities could be seen as a trait that the male gender tends to have naturally, although not at the pathological level of those with AS.

I read a book by a guy who grew up with AS who posited that people with AS tend to be perceived as being more feminine. This is because females are thought of as being more shy and reserved around other people, aspecialy males, and it is the males who are expected to exhibit more outgoing behavior. Since most people with AS tend to act shy or submissive, as oppossed to being outgoing and assertive, it would seem natural to think of people with AS as being feminine.

What do you guys think? Do NTs perceive people with AS as being more masculine or feminine?

As far as outward appearances go, I think a guy with AS will appear (in general) less masculine than his NT peers. This would be do to his characteristically AS shy and submissive personality. However, anyone who talks to a guy with AS would undoubtadly ascribe to him a very masculine personality. This would likely be because he highly interested in things like math, chess, video games, etc. So while his outward behavior would be characterized as feminine, his way of thinking would be characterized as masculine.

I have always had male interests (construction, fishing, women), but I am not a very masculine-looking guy. When I was high school I had grown rather fast compared to most and I was a fairly big guy and even had a football player back down from a fight with me (thank GOODNESS because he would have murdered me, but he didn't think so!) But I find that as I get older I feel further and further behind the other guys around me. I feel "small" and "weak" around them. I have a pretty high-pitched voice, whereas when I was a teenager and my voice was still developing, it was unusually deep for my age. But now, sometimes I even get called "ma'am" at the McDonald's drive-thru, though it happens mostly when my voice is hoarse. It seems to sound higher when I'm hoarse. My legs and arms are rather thin compared to other guys my age, and it shows even more because I've gotten pretty fat in recent years... with thin arms and legs.

But yeah, I have always had manly interests, but never felt like much of a man. In many ways I actually still feel like an overgrown little boy. I feel like a kid trapped inside an adult's body. I am also "that guy" who girls feel comfortable talking to, the "friend" rather than the guy they are interested in. That doesn't matter anymore because I'm married, but I'm still "that guy" in whom the girls confide.

What is mascaline what is femine...really its eggs and sperm....
genes, bodys...behaviors thats all differnt for the specials
humans are not satisfied with that but try to tag extras to it. Not abiding to that is irrellivent, You define those traits, decide what is male and feamle to you, or just live your life, if that produces behaviors that others percive as male or female, and if that doesnt jive with your gametes..who cares!

I agree with you. Is what's masculine and what's feminine really so black and white as some people think?

I get quite annoyed by people trying to assign autism a gender. I also think it leads to misconceptions about autism - I know a lot of people who think aspergers is basically an extension of being a bit of a nerd, and its because they've read the extreme male theory.

i would say its more 'male'.
ive had huge trouble relating to other girls throughout my life, and have only really been friends with other girls like me, who tend to be more male, despite looking wuite girlie. i prefer boys/men, as they talk about things, which is easier.
there have been posts before here about a.s girls being weirded by nt girls. but there is also a long post about female aspies having a different presentation, which also seems to be the case- why, im not sure.

understanding people, esp non verbal cues is def more dominant in women, though 3d modelling- more tradtionally found in men, can also be an a.s trait- im really SO bad at that.

i have been described as a male nick hornby because of my obsessive book and record collection.
i hvae a self imposed ban on buying records

I would characterise my version of AS as "selectively male-oriented" rather than "extreme male". My personality, demeanour and conduct are, in the main, quite feminine. My profile of abilities, while not exactly rare in women, is much more common in men. Always having a natural ability with and strong interest in maths and systemic things, it's no surprise that I make my living developing software. However, even in this male-dominated field, my approach to people is very atypical for the industry, being very much what people have called a "female approach". I emphasise such thing as cooperation, mediation, facilitation and respect over competition and power, to a degree that most of my co-workers have not experienced with their prior (male) colleagues. While these characteristics certainly are not the exclusive domain of the female world, they are, from my observation, also not de rigueur in the software industry.

Despite my interests and abilities, there's pretty much nothing masculine about me, even though I am very much not your average woman. My need for solitude and difficulty with emotional recognition and modulation are autistic characteristics, not typical of or ascribed to either gender absent the influence of autism. If I can be classified as any grouping, I would best be characterised as a young girl with several decades of life experience and education.

The nteresting thing is that, though physiology defaults to feminine, sedate/utilitarian things in society, dress, etc... LACK femininity. I guess you can't really call them MASCULINE, because they really have no actual tie...

Anyway, that makes such judgements colored. So for ME?

1. "females are naturally more interested in social activities".

Well, ACTUALLY, it is a kind of female bonding, attracting males, trying to arrange various social functions. I'm male, and I am not interested in any of that.

2. where as men tend to naturally be more interested in occupying themselves with things and ideas (math, chess, video games, etc.).

Aren't females "interested in occupying themselves with things and ideas"? As for me, I am not that interested in math, hate video games, and never bothered to learn all about chess.

3. The tendency of people with AS not to be very good at social activities could be seen as a trait that the male gender tends to have naturally, although not at the pathological level of those with AS.

Ever hear of "male bonding"? Even MALES have a kind of social structure. MOST tends to structure around sports, family, tasks considered masculine, and common bonds. Unfortunately, I can really only deal on the level of "tasks considered masculine".

4. I read a book by a guy who grew up with AS who posited that people with AS tend to be perceived as being more feminine. This is because females are thought of as being more shy and reserved around other people, aspecialy males, and it is the males who are expected to exhibit more outgoing behavior. Since most people with AS tend to act shy or submissive, as oppossed to being outgoing and assertive, it would seem natural to think of people with AS as being feminine.

OK, you got me! I am NOT interested in sports, am shy and reserved, and tend to be submissive. I am certainly NOT outgoing or assertive. That doesn't mean I am any less masculine though.

Definately more masculine. Also almost 75% of aspies are guys. I've found that men understand my condition much easier than women do.

What about all the gender-confused or bi-gendered etc...male aspies?
I have come across quite a few. One of the very first diagnosed aspies I met is a transsexual...Then there is my ASish friend who is sorta bi-gendered...Though they are surely in the minority there are a quite a few others I have come across here and there who are specifically aspies or exhibit very strong traits.

The "male" brain thing makes sense to me for a lot of the female aspies who are at least somewhat androgynous, or asexual or bi/lesbians and whatnot...but it does not really make sense for the guys mentioned above.

I am perceived as much more feminine than I am. On the MMPI, my gender is unidentifiable--I have equal quantities of male and female traits. I identify as female, the same as my physical gender, but the only reason it matters is because it changes how others see me and how they treat me.

People who don't know me often expect me to be more feminine than I actually am, despite that I wear clothing exclusively for comfort, never wear make-up, and have on occasion given myself a buzz cut just because I got tired of my hair. In sixth grade, for example, a teacher I'd had all year assumed I would like a book about baby names, when I really wanted to read one on unsolved mysteries (think Marie Celeste, UFOs, or Roanoke). My mother tended towards constantly buying books on zoology for me, especially the "more photography than information" variety, when what I wanted was medicine and science. People have been very surprised that I know how to do various minor repairs, paint a room, lay carpet, or even mow a lawn. (Granted, I hate mowing lawns. It's about the worst sensory experience you can ever have.) They're even surprised I carry a pocket knife and a length of duct tape! Maybe they're misled by other, stereotypically feminine, things that I also enjoy. For example, I do a lot of crochet and quilting. I guess it isn't so obvious that I often do so while listening to sci-fi books on tape or watching medical or crime drama shows online, or that crochet and quilting are very much like many of the other mechanical things I enjoy--they just happen to be tagged "female". I also speak in a soft voice rather often--when I haven't lost control of my volume switch and am projecting as though to a 500-seat auditorium while only speaking to two people--and maybe that is considered to be feminine. Other feminine traits, though not stereotypically so, are a tendency to use language readily and as a first resort (in my case, written language and lectures are common), and a tendency to attempt to understand others' perspectives (however clumsy I might be at it).

It's almost like they see my feminine traits, and assume they must mean that I fit into the usual feminine stereotype, and get surprised when they encounter other traits that don't fit. Like you have to fit into one or the other category, when most people don't really fit entirely into either. After all, not every girl likes playing with dolls... though I will admit I enjoyed playing with dolls very much; I gave them all appendectomies.

Most assuredly it is masculine traits and it very obvious once people get out of the city and into a rural environments and even better once into the wilds where it is so obvious that it cannot be denied.

Socially masculine or neurologically masculine?

Seems like Asperger's traits might be more fundamental to the Aspie than male traits are fundamental to males...

Some male/female differences are inborn. We can't be exactly sure which ones they are; there's some leads to be gained from studying different cultures, where the social aspect of maleness differs but the neurological aspect shouldn't have many differences. (Maybe isolated populations... best to study relatively large groups of people, for a good mix of DNA, to avoid getting traits that have become prominent in a small, isolated group.)

But it's probably less inborn than socially acquired--gender identity is probably inborn; as are some differences in thinking; some minor differences in sensory processing; and of course the traits due to hormonal differences. Everything else? Acquired. Picked up from society.

Here's something additional: Might it be that autistic people don't pick up on social signals as well as most people, including the social signals that dictate what attributes any given gender ought to possess?

Is it, in fact, the NT males that have the "extreme male" behavior, and the NT females that have the "extreme female" behavior, due to socialization? They certainly seem to have more of a tendency to want to act in gender-typed ways than we do. Maybe there's no association with gender at all, except that they pick up the social parts of gender easily, and we don't pick them up as well as they do.

Masculinity and femininity are social constructs. Since Aspergians have trouble perceiving social expectations, girl Aspies might be unusually masculine, and boy Aspies might be unusually feminine. But this is all accidental. It's not a gender confusion, but more a failure to recognize and identify with any gender at all.

This is unnecessary grouping, Aspergers is neither masculine nor feminine.

Actually, considering that there ARE people on either side that try to switch, and that people change so much so early, I don't see HOW you can believe that. When they first understood the human body to some degree, they thought they had it pegged. As they delve deeper, they realize that there ARE a lot of differences.