Cultural Aspergers Hypothesis

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Apparently your definition of psychopathy is different than Robert Hare's. That's quite alright. There are varying symptoms across the internet for psychopathy/sociopathy, that people use, that include the symptoms of Aspergers on some sites such as Sociopath world.

Fortunately for autistics, the actual diagnostic checklist provided by Robert Hare, that is accepted as a clinical tool, used world wide, does require a case history as linked for the version available in Wiki, and quoted in a previous post.

This excludes the potential of autistics to receive a misdiagnosis of pychopathy, from those that determine it from their external behavior/communication that often does not reflect the empathy they may feel inside.

I'm not suggesting that you would confuse the two, but there are some that adamantly suggest there is no difference, that do not rely on the accepted method of diagnosis, through the checklist, provided to certified professionals, by Robert Hare.

Per this example from sociopathworld:

http://www.sociopathworld.com/2008/11/pretending-to-be-normal.html



If it was not for the standard of diagnosis, that includes a case history, per Hare's checklist guidlines, many autistic individuals that do not express emotive content in their speech and body language would be mistaken for psychopaths by the individuals that promote a limited view of psychopathy/sociopathy on sites like Sociopath World. And, even some in the clinical world, like Samuel Baron Cohen, that just recently has accepted the idea that individuals with aspergers possess the potential for strong affective empathy, while experiencing issues with cognitive empathy.

Individuals with psychopathy/sociopathy in the US, are covered under the Broader guidelines of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, but this DSM criteria is separate from the checklist that Robert Hare provides to clinicians worldwide, to diagnose the specific inherent condition of psychopathy, that requires a case history of each and every individual diagnosed with this clinical standard.

In case you haven't compared the DSMIV criteria for Anti-Social Personality Disorder and Hare's Checklist for Psychopathy, here they are together for comparison, along with the revised DSMV revision of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, that was supposed to better reflect the non-criminal elements.:



http://www.daniweb.com/community-center/geeks-lounge/threads/78319

Hare's Psychopathy Checklist:




DSMV revision for Anti-Social Personality Disorder

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=16



And as an added bonus in how Sociopath World suggests one can spot a Sociopath/Psychopath:

http://www.sociopathworld.com/2010/12/sociopath-test-how-to-spot-them-before.html

Notice how they include some of the stereotyped descriptions of Aspergers related to social communication, that I will bold below.

None of these bolded parts are included in Hare's checklist for psychopathy, or either version of ASPD in the DSM IV/V.

Sociopath world is a popular internet site, for people interested in this topic, but the danger is the misconceptions that people can gain, in attempting to identify a person with psychopathy, by using traits commonly associated with a different disorder, as they have done here, that an anonymous person has come up with.

There is a site called "Reddit" that not too long ago had a thread that suggested that Sweden was the best place in the world for individuals with Aspergers to move to. Of course, it was opinion based, but the information you provide as a resident with Aspergers, seems to reflect that opinion.

Of course Sweden, if I understand correctly is more of a homogenous/egalitarian society that the US. The heterogenity of the US, creates barriers among different classes and minorities, that result in animosity when the government suggests those that are less fortunate should receive a hand-up in life.

There is a thread going on this site now about Aspergers and unemployment and it is sad that some have never found steady gainful employment in their entire life as they reach middle age. Even harder though, when there is no social safety net, for many, as is in the US.

Sweden was actually what I based this upon.

Interesting, good choice, and I can see that as a basis for the reasoning in your hypothesis, that I agree with in part.

However, it is the non-autistic society/government in Sweden that allows for these advantages to those that might have difficulties in functioning in society and for those that are down on their luck as well, without the same fortunes in life as others.

The healthiest societies are those that help the disadvantaged members of those societies. Scandanavian countries rank at the top of societies that provide a hand-up to their citizenary in need.

In general, it is civilization and what one might refer to as "NT" society, that has allowed individuals with inherent dysfunction, to be enabled through the accommodations that society provides to focus on their strengths and gain success in life.

Unfortunately, the US, while providing much greater assistance in this avenue than some other countries, appears to be too large and heterogenous, to reach the levels of societial health found in smaller homogenous scandanavian countries.

I'm not sure how you as a citizen of Brazil, would measure the societial health of your country. It make a huge difference in how one might view the reality of those that are not as advantaged as others. This internet site is multicultural, so it is likely a source of different viewpoints, on topics such as this.

Just as an example the medical model of Autism is widely accepted in the US, and the organization Autism Speaks thrives with hundreds of thousands of volunteers.

On the other hand a similiar organization first named Autism Speaks, now named Autistica, started in the UK, receives comparitively very little support.

This is likely in part, because the Social Model of disability is more prevalent in that country, and there are enhanced social welfare resources, as compared to the US.

Regardless of any disability, the people's of a healthy society flourish as a group as compared to those in a non-healthy society that provides little assistance for those that are disadvantaged, either for inherent reasons or the variety of misfortunes of life that most everyone is succeptible to.

Whether or not an autistic society of borderline autistics could work as a healthy society, would be largely dependent on the group determinations of how to take care of those that encountered misfortune in life.

Technically speaking, inherent problems with cognitive empathy, could present a problem in this requirement of a healthy society, regardless of witting intent.

Some people are cut out for the group speak, to run societies and some aren't. Those with good skills in this area, which are part of inherent abilities, is an absolute requirement for a healthy society.

In general, the so called "NT" society benefits from the strengths of Autistic individuals, but the reality of survival dictates that those individuals with Autistic traits are much more dependent on the "good will", of that so called "NT" society to survive as as group that is born with inherent disadvantages in social communication.

The job situation for Autistics in the US, provides clear evidence for this. For those in this country the majority of subsistence support, as studied, comes from the so called "NT" families of autistics.

In Sweden, a hand-up, from the Government for the disadvantaged is a much more prevalent political way of thinking, that allows some to gain a semblence of independence in life, beyond that of their families, that they might not gain in other countries, with lower levels of societial health.

In the developing countries, with the poorest societial health, the results are clear, and not good ones, for many in those countries.

I don't have much basis for comparison, having only lived in Sweden and the UK. I did get the impression life is probably harder for autistics in the UK, even though it has its own substantial welfare state in some ways (actually more generous in certain regards, from what I read a while back, but perhaps not the "right" ones for many autistics to benefit from).

While it's often said the cultures of Sweden and the UK are not that dissimilar, I found it difficult to fit in with mainstream people in the UK; I got a lot of odd reactions for being quiet and distant. In Sweden I seem to fit in better (or possibly, people keep their opinions to themselves more; I can't really tell).



It's quite a bit more homogenous and egalitarian than the US, yes. There doesn't seem to be as much class consciousness as what I've seen in my travels visiting friends in the US, or as in the UK.

However there's also a very permissive immigration policy that's been in place since, I think, sometime in the 1970s. Sweden accepts more immigrants per capita than the US (at least as of a few years ago), many of them from the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa. These seem to have a lot of difficulty integrating and becoming productive members of society. There have been some unpleasant consequences.

I grew up in Trollhättan, an industrial town home to the now sadly demised SAAB Automobile. There is a substantial Iranian community there and a Shi'a mosque. Some of the ethnic Swedes there took a very intolerant, racist stance to this, and there have been episodes of violence, even extending to the mosque being subject to arson in 1993. A new mosque was built and things have quieted down, though there are certainly still problems. Other towns have had similar issues:

Link to news item

I want to say that in recent years there have been encouraging signs, as I see people from the various immigrant communities appearing in white-collar jobs here and there, but on the other hand the anti-immigration party Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats) managed to get enough votes for a few seats in Parliament in the last election. They've put a great deal of work into looking "mainstream" and acceptable, purging people with an extremist past (neo-Nazism, for example) from their ranks, but it's fairly clear to me they still represent a very intolerant stance, so I find it unfortunate they've gained so much in popularity.

There's also a flow of illegal immigrants, mostly from the former Soviet Union as I recall. So far the top echelons of politicians seem to be paying very little attention to this issue, and the illegals don't really have access to the help legal immigrants and local citizens can get, not being "part of the system".

It remains to be seen how this will develop...



A few years back, a company called Left is Right (a reference to the left hemisphere of the brain) was founded here based on the idea of employing people with Asperger Syndrome (a diagnosis was a requirement for hiring, I believe) to capitalise on their strength, offering consulting services in various capacities, proofreading being one example, as well as various IT jobs. I believe it had mixed success at first and underwent some troubles, but it does appear to be around still. I wonder if something similar could be done stateside.

There are scattered private programs that incorporate those with Aspergers into the workforce. I recently linked a private Academy called "Orion" that specializes in providing social skills assistance and work experience to prep Asperger's youth for college and other advanced skills training.

Aspegers isn't identified well in the US, because of the methods used in government statistics. It is suggested per available statistics as extremely rare; about 5 out of every 10,000 individuals.

There is a study planned by an organization to get a comprehensive statistic of Aspergers in the general population; if it is more reflective of the reality of the situation it may emphasize the needs for these type of programs.

Hopefully individuals in the private world with the resources will take more iniative, when the needs are better understood.

Growing up in a segregated community I never felt the discrimination, that I could imagine African Americans felt forced to sit in different areas of movie theaters. I noticed that years before I had any idea that people noticed me as significantly different than others.

The leg up that African Americans have is a strong sense of real community that they have retained from that segregated effort of society, that isn't as apparent in any other groups except other minorities such as Mexican Immigrants, and Asian Immigrants.

Interestingly, the key appears that within those minority groups it is the inherent and cultural homogenity that binds people together, just as it is among larger countries with homogenous populations.

In general the further north one moves the less heterogenity one finds in the states, so it may be that the physical environment that one has adapted to influences heterogenity as well.

Sweden is a fairly small country, with what appears to be a long established culture that binds people together, not unlike what I see among Mexican and Asian Imimigrants, as well as in long established African American Communities that have remained segregated and maintained established ties, in part, because it is their choice.

Maybe there is a tribal instinct that all humans share, that affect the attempts at healthy heterogenous societies.

And, I guess it is part of the idea behind this topic, that individuals that share inherent Neurocognitive traits would feel more comfortable in their own homogenous tribe. However, the neurocognitive traits do not necessarily impact the other factors of homogenity.

Perhaps the closest an individual with Aspergers can approximate that in real life is a society such as Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands, and maybe Germany as well. Unless, at it seems, that one is categorized as an immigrant from another "tribe".

I wonder if Communism was a type of unwitting cultural effort to ensure homogenity, that has failed as the world has became a more heterogenous place.

The holdouts are left in homogenous populations.

And the fear of the west from those indigenous in the middle east, is a fear of a similiar homogenous loss but more of a cultural/religious one, as not many are migrating there.

The world is moving further toward heterogenity and egalitarianism, appearing to be the inevitable impact of technology and economic expansion. At the same time part of human nature appears to be screaming louder, no, as time goes on.

Maybe human culture is moving so much faster than what is understood as the slow process of evolution, that humans are losing the ability to adapt to a new way of life, that may be beyond reasonable human adaptation. It appears to be becoming harder to choose or even understand the path.

Perhaps, still best left in bands of 12 to 24, that stay connected, for the most part, through a lifetime. What the Asian, Mexican immigrants, and other minorities in the US may intrinsically understand better than those who have been here much longer, that have moved in nomadic groups of 1 to 4, and lost that common bond.

I'm convinced that culture does play a huge role in what Autism feels like to an Autistic individual, but the issues appear to move so much further than autism alone.

aghogday, I've never mistaken an autistic for a psychopath. From my point of view that error would be inconceivable, as I don't use the behavioural checklists that professionals must resort to, but rather by observing who people are. Try an analogy: if you want to learn music theory you can buy books and take courses, but that's not how Mozart did it.

I can't question your personal abilities in this skill because I have never witnessed them. However it sounds like you are very confident in your abilities.

If they are analogous to the skills of Mozart perhaps you have the skill to provide some evidence of those abilities. And. if you actually have the consistent ability to spot a psychopath by talking to them for several minutes, you have a consistent ability, that has been evidenced by no one else, that is analagous to the unique skills of Mozart.

Are you good enough at this to have determined who is or who isn't a psychopath, among noteworthy individuals, whom you have observed on TV, through the course of your lifetime? If so, are there any noteworthy individuals that you have identified and suspect as such over the course of your lifetime, and are you confident enough in your abilities to share those suspicions?

TV is crowded with those whom fictionally or in real life, are identified and commonly understood to approximate the narcissistic personality, but no one appears to have much of an ability to spot a psychopath beyond the fascade of the actor on TV. You suggest you can see beyond the fascade of a psychopath, in several minutes regardless if there is a record of a lack of remorse, and/or criminal behavior.

I've heard the label attached to Obama and the President before him, but Wiki doesn't agree. The similarity is unusual confidence and some that have a very strong distaste for each of these individuals. There is no real evidence of remorse for either individual, but that's not unusual, politicians don't usually even admit mistakes.

Gacey, Bundy, Dahmer, Gein, and Jack the Ripper are the only 4 that Wiki can identify of note. Only three of which are recent.

Can you identify more, through a lifetime of watching characters on TV?

There is only one that comes to mind for me that has been questioned by many and that is OJ.

He is the last one anyone would have expected; how could anyone doubt that smile and confidence that stayed consistent for decades, and through an entire trial. No one in the entire world would have suggested he might have psychopathic tendencies, until well after the accused crime was committed.

He was a fearless hero on the football field loved by all; there is nothing that can shake confidence, when there is no potential of fear. But there is some evidence that there may not be much that separates the hero from the villain.

If you could see a semblence of villain in OJ before that event, might support evidence of your unique abilities. The belief in his innocence was so strong, there was the real fear of nationwide riots if he had been convicted of the crime.

Nor could he meet the diagnostic criteria, even required for anti-social personality disorder, because even if he did meet the crime, there was no consistent behavior in his past that would indicate any potential of anti-social behavior, from a diagnostic standpoint.

If it is truly an inherent condition, there is the potential that not even the "psychopath" and/or hero, per the inability to feel fear, would understand there was any significant variance in their condition from others other than supreme confidence.

By chance I came across the photo below, the similarities are confidence that cannot be wavered. The same quality that George W. had, without a flinch in confidence when a could be assasin threw a shoe at him twice. He just ducked and grinned.

Obama is still a hero to some, regardless of the innate characteristics these two may share. And so is OJ, as well as George W. There are some people that are hard to dislike. There are others that are loved and hated, and others that aren't noticed. If being liked is success in life, OJ, through the course of his life, is one of the most successful individuals that has walked the face of the earth, through extreme success, trials and tribulation.

Hero or psychopath? It can be difficult to define through the course of a lifetime.

It can be the same to define non-autistic vs autistic through the course of a lifetime as well.

It's more likely that the one on the left has traits of Autism. One gaze that moves well beyond the camera and another gaze that expresses confidence that is fully measured by one that bears it, but no real evidence of anything but that.



My preference is for patterns; they are not possible without history.

I can't tell from television. I need to be around people. Being around people feels to me like standing on a deep river floor. Intense pressure and heavy currents. I can understand why most autistics avoid it, but it's the richest information source I know. When you stop panicking you don't drown because it's not a real river. Thoughts, beliefs and stuff (e.g., psychopathic writing style) are like flotsam being swept along by the currents. They have no independent life. I think nonautistics can be trained to piece together patterns from the flotsam, but they can't abstract themselves from the currents. I think you probably have to feel like you're drowning to work it out. Standing on the river floor, observing people and feeling the currents and pressures, I get a very clear sense of other people's size, shape, speed and whatever else makes sense in the metaphor, i.e., 'who they are', in my world. Once I read about psychological conditions I realised many were already familiar to me. Psychopaths, unlike autistics, are among the most homogenous and easily recognisable.

I would like to learn about serial killers because they strike me as either not psychopathic or psychopathic plus stuff they're holding onto (which would be new for me and would change the way I see things).

A lack of human empathy, fear, and remorse are common characteristics that have been identified by experts that study serial killers regardless of whatever other baggage they may carry around with them. These are the type of cases, that experts like Navarro focused on in his career.

Considering there have only been 100 active serial killers identified in the US in the last decade, and your cues cannot be deriven strictly from visually observable behavior, or history from media sources; statistically the probability of you coming across a serial killer in your lifetime that you can derive an aalysis through your method described in your post, is close to zero.

Interestingly, the identification of serial killing has gone done about 300 percent since a 300 percent increase starting in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. The internet is now a playground filled with 1000's of virtual victims. Although, many other theories have been proposed to why the sudden increase and sudden drop-off occurred.

If Ted Bundy doesn't strike you as a psychopath, what it is that you are defining as psychopath, is not likely what the experts on the subject are identifying. There is consensus among experts that Theodore Bundy was a psychopath.

My father was in Law enforcement in Florida, and had the responsibility of guarding him, he was no homogenous individual, there was only one Ted Bundy, and at the same time 1000 versions of Ted Bundy, that he was able to create at will. From physical to intellectual representation of himself. Video and photographs of this unique psychopath provide objective evidence of it.

He was the kind of intelligent psychopath, that is the most dangerous of all psychopaths. Psychopaths are among the least predictable and homogenous group of individuals that walk the face of the earth. Even, within the behavior of the same individual.

That is not my opinion, it is the opinion of experts that have spent their lifetime dealing with these individuals in the criminal justice system, that aren't all trying to sell a book like Navarro, by making the identification of a serial killer sound like an easy process.

I can understand that you believe you are identifying something similiar in people that you have defined as a psychopath, but your descriptions don't come close to matching the descriptions of psychopaths, as defined by the experts in the fields that study these individuals. The homogenous comment is a clear indicator of that.

The definition and criteria for a psychopath, is a human construct of behaviors, provided by experts, just as is Autism. There is a human defined psychopath spectrum just as there is a spectrum of every type of human variation whether defined by human constructs or not.

Very few people on the larger phenotype of inherent neurocognitive differences and behaviors associated with psychopathy and autism, meet the strict guidelines agreed upon in the clinical environment for an actual diagnosis of either condition.

The psychopath you may sense may be the hero that just returned from war, the alpha male star athlete, a law enforcment officer, a CEO, a wall street trader, etc. While they all may share underlying traits you might sense, they have channeled their energies through the social norms of society, and in some cases may not have harmed anyone due to their inherent differences.

Neuroplasticity plays a role in whether or not someone whom might have neurocognitive traits associated with psychopathy ends up as the good cop or the bad cop. The good cop doesn't get the psychopath label.

For the experts it is the objective behavior that makes the individual the psychopath, nothing else is of significance to experts that have created the constructs associated with psychopathy, or the experts that diagnose them as such from using those constructs.

An agreed upon effective scientific method is used in order to attempt to remove preconceived notion from the process; the inherent reality and danger in all types of human judgement and/or discrimination of others.

All that said, my personal view of all of this, is colored by my opportunity to receive first hand accounts of serial killer/psychopath, Theodore Bundy, from my father, early on. My preconceived notions about psychopathy are very much influenced by that experience, and the media focus of serial killers in the period of time of "the rise of the serial killer" in the US.

If you study this specific are of psychopathy intently, you may question what it is that you are actually sensing in others and what the significance of it may or may not be in that person's reality and all those that share it. You appear open to the idea that it might change your views.

There are many sources, available on the internet, to pursue, but I suggest only the reputable ones, not sources like "Sociopathworld", where an anonymous person can throw in autistic symptoms at will.

I agree with most of the theory, although I believe it to be overly simplistic and too generalized in parts.