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New research brings autism screening closer to reality

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Danielismyname
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12 Jan 2009, 8:33 am

I've read pretty much all of the official studies on employment and ASDs (i.e., peer reviewed),

In the highest functioning individuals with a diagnosed ASD, the figure was that around 40% were employed; this was in the US (albeit, most were menial or family given jobs). The 7% [and 13%] for Asperger's in the UK is accurate as far as their studies go. The lowest figure in the US is 0%, and that's in the lowest functioning individuals (the higher functioning individuals with the same label are still under 20%).

I'm still trying to figure out why Down's Syndrome is classed as "bad"; the happiest individual I've seen had such, as well as mental retardation. O wait, I know why, they look different, whereas those with autism don't look different at first glance.



Woodpeace
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12 Jan 2009, 8:53 am

Today's print copy of the Guardian has a two page inside spread about autism. The article Disorder linked to high levels of testosterone in womb - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... erone-womb - states that the study of 235 children

Quote:
consistently found a link between higher testosterone levels in the womb and autistic traits, such as lack of sociability and verbal skills in the children.
These are not autistic children, but many of us have traits that are more pronounced in those who have a medical diagnosis. [...]

the children, now between eight and 10, are old enough to be psychologically assessed using two separate autism rating tests. Scientists found a clear link, in both tests, between higher testosterone levels when the child was in the womb and autistic traits.
The study [...] indicates that foetal testosterone not only masculinises the body, it masculinises the mind and therefore the brain.


If there is a causal link between foetal testosterone and autism shouldn't autistic women have masculine bodies?

On the same two page spread Charlotte Moore, the mother of two autistic sons, George and Sam, writes about her life: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... utism-test . Her article is followed by comments.



Danielismyname
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12 Jan 2009, 9:08 am

Woodpeace wrote:
... shouldn't autistic women have masculine bodies?


They have more signs of testosterone, yes.

Quote:
The androgen theory of autism proposes that autism spectrum conditions (ASC) are in part due to elevated fetal testosterone (FT) levels, which are positively correlated with a number of autistic traits and inversely correlated with social development and empathy. A medical questionnaire was completed by n=54 women with ASC, n=74 mothers of children with ASC, and n=183 mothers of typically developing children to test whether women with ASC have an increased rate of testosterone-related medical conditions, and to see whether mothers of children with ASC show similar abnormalities, as part of the 'broader autism phenotype'. Compared to controls, significantly more women with ASC reported (a) hirsutism, (b) bisexuality or asexuality, (c) irregular menstrual cycle, (d) dysmenorrhea, (e) polycystic ovary syndrome, (f) severe acne, (g) epilepsy, (h) tomboyism, and (i) family history of ovarian, uterine, and prostate cancers, tumors, or growths. Compared to controls, significantly more mothers of ASC children reported (a) severe acne, (b) breast and uterine cancers, tumors, or growths, and (c) family history of ovarian and uterine cancers, tumors, or growths. These results suggest current hormone abnormalities in women with ASC and their mothers. Direct investigations of serum testosterone levels and genetic susceptibility to high testosterone production or sensitivity in women with ASC would illuminate the origin of these conditions. The relationship between FT and current testosterone levels also needs to be clarified. The present results may be relevant to understanding the increased male risk to developing autism.



TPE2
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12 Jan 2009, 9:19 am

The motor clumsiness usually present with AS seems to go against the "male brain theory".



rdos
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12 Jan 2009, 9:39 am

Can anybody find the actual correlation? Seems like media only talks about "a link", which could be anything from an unsignificant correlation to a large one. Looking at Simon Baron-Cohens publications & research reports, I cannot find the actual correlation.



ouinon
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12 Jan 2009, 9:58 am

:wink:



Last edited by ouinon on 12 Jan 2009, 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danielismyname
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12 Jan 2009, 10:06 am

It's a continuation of his "Extreme Male Brain Theory" of Autism (which of note, Asperger thought that his Autistic Psychopathy was an extreme male personality). His first paper, has his evidence for such.



sinsboldly
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12 Jan 2009, 10:11 am

Again, I protest the 'completeness' of the statistics for Aspies that have a steady job, simply because ALL THE ASPIES IN THE WORLD HAVE NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED.

so the information is suspect.

now, I would be comforted it they said "OF IDENTIFIED Asperger's Syndrome PEOPLE".



Last edited by sinsboldly on 12 Jan 2009, 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

rdos
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12 Jan 2009, 10:12 am

Danielismyname wrote:
It's a continuation of his "Extreme Male Brain Theory" of Autism (which of note, Asperger thought that his Autistic Psychopathy was an extreme male personality). His first paper, has his evidence for such.


Yes, I know, but given the quite large sample they are using (over 200 children), the correlation they have found could be pretty small, yet still significant. If it is a small correlation, then the test would be rather useless as a screening test for ASDs. Another problem with their dataset seems to be that the mothers are all old.



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12 Jan 2009, 10:16 am

undefineable wrote:
While we autistics may not suffer because of our autism much more than NTs suffer because of their humanity, we also experience less happiness than NTs, and a lower level of fulfilment. Obviously, there's no way of testing this, but to an NT, I feel, his or her life is infinite and complete; it's not just the lens through which the world is approached, as it seems to be for us. Remember, our brains are no smaller than those of NTs; therefore our mental capacity is likely to be just the same, albeit harder to fill.

Here, she's making it clear that parents are concerned with maximising their children's happiness, hence the difficulty she refers to, given how hard we can be to figure out to begin with. Many people also believe (wrongly in my view, since a brain appears after 1 month of pregnancy) that a foetus isn't 'alive' in the usual sense until very late in pregnancy or even at birth, so there wouldn't be any ethical issue remaining in the minds of those who chose terminiation.


AS does not limit your life lack of motivation, confidence, willpower does that.



philosopherBoi
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12 Jan 2009, 10:18 am

Abangyarudo wrote:
undefineable wrote:
While we autistics may not suffer because of our autism much more than NTs suffer because of their humanity, we also experience less happiness than NTs, and a lower level of fulfilment. Obviously, there's no way of testing this, but to an NT, I feel, his or her life is infinite and complete; it's not just the lens through which the world is approached, as it seems to be for us. Remember, our brains are no smaller than those of NTs; therefore our mental capacity is likely to be just the same, albeit harder to fill.

Here, she's making it clear that parents are concerned with maximising their children's happiness, hence the difficulty she refers to, given how hard we can be to figure out to begin with. Many people also believe (wrongly in my view, since a brain appears after 1 month of pregnancy) that a foetus isn't 'alive' in the usual sense until very late in pregnancy or even at birth, so there wouldn't be any ethical issue remaining in the minds of those who chose terminiation.


AS does not limit your life lack of motivation, confidence, willpower does that.



So true but don't forget faith and determination they go hand in hand with willpower without one life is a real pain in the ha ha.



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12 Jan 2009, 10:19 am

rdos wrote:
Employment facts from Aspie-quiz:

Total population:
Aspies: 1288, NTs: 814

Students:
Aspies: 410 (32%)
NTs: 215 (26%)

Unemployed:
Aspies: 162 (13%)
NTs: 62 (8%)

Pension:
Aspies: 46 (4%)
NTs: 7 (1%)

Real jobs:
Aspies: 582 (45%)
NTs: 478 (59%)

IOW, in this sample, 14% more NTs than Aspies have real jobs.


even if this is from scientific studies, they are biased and useless as an informational aid.



rdos
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12 Jan 2009, 10:25 am

Abangyarudo wrote:
even if this is from scientific studies, they are biased and useless as an informational aid.


Of course it is biased. It is probably representative of the Internet Aspie population though, which is probably more relevant for WP-participants than studies in institutions or government aid programs.



Abangyarudo
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12 Jan 2009, 10:26 am

philosopherBoi wrote:
Abangyarudo wrote:
undefineable wrote:
While we autistics may not suffer because of our autism much more than NTs suffer because of their humanity, we also experience less happiness than NTs, and a lower level of fulfilment. Obviously, there's no way of testing this, but to an NT, I feel, his or her life is infinite and complete; it's not just the lens through which the world is approached, as it seems to be for us. Remember, our brains are no smaller than those of NTs; therefore our mental capacity is likely to be just the same, albeit harder to fill.

Here, she's making it clear that parents are concerned with maximising their children's happiness, hence the difficulty she refers to, given how hard we can be to figure out to begin with. Many people also believe (wrongly in my view, since a brain appears after 1 month of pregnancy) that a foetus isn't 'alive' in the usual sense until very late in pregnancy or even at birth, so there wouldn't be any ethical issue remaining in the minds of those who chose terminiation.


AS does not limit your life lack of motivation, confidence, willpower does that.



So true but don't forget faith and determination they go hand in hand with willpower without one life is a real pain in the ha ha.


I'm agnostic and comfortable with the fact that I do not know how I, the world, or the various mechanizations of life were created or how they are controlled currently in the end though what I said could be replaced with anything. As far as diagnosed aspies alot (I'm not saying all here) were diagnosed as a way to identify why they behave as they do. As they are they have been promoted as lacking and hence hold themselves back through he excuse of the diagnosis. For all the people who are diagnosed I bet theres atleast 1 that didn't and that person is thriving because they don't have the same label holding them back.



ouinon
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12 Jan 2009, 10:28 am

In a recent reputable study, of several thousand cases, 75% of abortions were stated to be because of failed contraception, ( according to official govt. figures, typical use of the pill results in 5-8 pregnancies for every 100 women using it over a year, and typical use of durex results in 16 over the same time period ).

I can't remember how many women with unwanted pregnancies go on to have the child, ( a significant number ), but there is a correlation between mental fragility/low self-esteem etc, and choosing to have an abortion.

In the West/developed countries the real genocide, ( 1.3 million abortions in 2005 in the USA ), is already occurring to babies of mentally fragile women, those who feel most isolated/incompetent, ( aswell as black/latino women ).

I notice, reading this thread, that abortion suddenly seems outrageous when it concerns "oneself"/ones like oneself, and would like to point out that many of the women with fragile mental health/low self-esteem who abort may be ( undiagnosed because of the different "presentation" of AS in women ), AS.

If it is alright for a woman to decide to abort because she feels unable to cope with a baby, ( of any kind ), why is it worse for another woman to abort because she feels unable to cope with an AS baby? Surely there are even more arguments in favour of that abortion; it probably is harder to raise an AS child, in our society.

I am Pro-Choice, and don't see in what way abortion chosen because of potential AS is any worse than abortion for the "usual" reasons, ( feelings of incapacity/incompetence/fear in the face of motherhood ).

.



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12 Jan 2009, 10:36 am

It's inevitable that such a test will become available. We can argue three ways to Sunday, but the test will become real and pregnant women will use it. Just like Down's Syndrome.


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