Why I don't believe in The Aspergers Theory

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Youtube - "Functional Disconnection" Dr. Robert Melillo

When you have an hour of your time, watch this video. Aspergers/Autism is a FUNCTIONAL DISCONNECTION in the brain. Aspergers/Autism comes with more than just the usual inabilities to communicate on a NT level. It affects Gastro-intestinal and immunity centers in the body, on top of the added sensory perception issues.

Can we move past arguing the validity of our diagnoses, and move on to exploring the nuances of these differences? This would be more beneficial as it would benefit ALL of humankind and not just those who are on the spectrum.

Good luck with that. And with refuting the reams of empirical evidence supporting the existence of AS as real condition that real people have.

I particularly look forward to your attempts to reframe neurobiological evidence of differences.

I gave the opening post a read. I`m not interested in debating any part of this topic, but I would like to point out an observation. MacDragard, you are arguing two separate things here:

1. AS classification as a personality or mood disorder as opposed to a developmental one. ie, product of experience and circumstance more than product of genetics.

However, you`re also taking a stab at,
2. questioning AS validity as a disorder of any kind whatsoever.

In order to frame a cohesive statement for your position, you must separate the two. Arguing for both weakens the strength of your thesis as, if #2 is taken as granted, #1 is moot.

Have you received an advance from the publishers of Erich Anton Paul von Däniken's books?

MacDragard, I had none of the experienced you did and came out the same.

While I think yours may have made it far worse, it likely was there from the start.

Allow me to break the theory even when I was a kid before kindergarden I was a loner .its a huge problem that people think its just something caused by computers. I was without air and also purple when born. My aspergers is because of brain damage caused by that they say.

I remember the stories my mom always tells me. I was the most amazing kid. Because I didn require attention from anyone. I would play with myself and toys all day long, not running around screaming and crying for attention like.normal kids do.

None of OP makes any sense.

Have you ever heard of Edinborough, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff, etc. The United Kingdom has many "large urban areas" besides London.

You blame the Florida heat for you not playing sports, but what about all the other millions of school kids in the sunshine state who do play sports? And have for generations. They all grew up in the same climate you did?

I grew up and graduated from college before personal computers even existed so I never became "addicted to computer games", but that didnt stop me from becoming diagnosed with aspergers.

Just a few examples of the total illogic of the op.

Also- how do you explain Roberto Clemente, and Sammy Sosa, and the other two hundred Major League Baseball players who came from the caribean?

Last edited by naturalplastic on 30 Oct 2012, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

"not even an MRI/Cat scan shows abnormalities for people who are diagnosed. "
There are differences in the brains of most autistic people, according to MRI scans.

I was very social as a young child, and while I did learn many social skills, that doesn't change my sensory issues, awkwardness, the fact that I have to work a lot harder to socialise, that fact that I don't naturally pick up on body language, tone of voice as much as NTs ect. Social skills aren't just learnt, they're partly natural as well, I recommend you do some more research.

My mother is not overbearing, and my father did die when I was six, but he was around me before then, and personality/social skills didn't change with his death. According to you, many Aspies have overbearing mothers, and absent fathers, do you not think this could be a result of having many autistic traits? It's thought to be every genetic.

Many people are diagnosed in the U.K. because we have a free health care system, so it's free to get a diagnosis, and you need a diagnosis in-order to get free support.
Schools in the U.K. often refer students they think may be autistic, to the child and adolescent mental health care system, to get assessed.
Maybe more people here have heard of high-functioning autism, and know about some traits? Maybe people here are more open to a diagnosis? I know, they're just guesses.

I only played computer games a little when I was younger, and I never chose them over socialising. I don't think I really chose anything over socialising.

You don't need good communication skills in-order to survive, you just need basic ones if you live on your own.

To OP: I really think you're wrong about this. I don't think it has anything to do with enviroment, or home life, because neither parents cared too much or too little for me, and I grew up in Chicago (LOTS of diversity there), so I defnitely was not deprived of human contact. Yet, as soon as I started elementary school, the school cousnelors and teachers saw signs of autism in me. Also, my nephew shows a lot of signs, and he's going into kindergarden next year.

You have to wonder, why is it that the majority of people that are diagnosed with aspergers come from the UK? Maybe it's just a coincidence? I know that other than London, the UK doesn't have many urbanized areas and most of the towns/villages are close-knit social cliques that English society makes you feel obligated to be a part of.

This comment alone proves you totally wrong. I'm from the UK, there are plenty of huge sprawling cities here with all the troubles that entails such as inner city violence, drugs etc. And your so called theory falls flat right here, because the UK is very densely populated compared to the USA, Australia etc. So how come you seem to think that "most" people diagnosed with AS come from here where there are plenty of social opportunities?

Most critical is that there is one common trend among people with aspergers: they have overbearing, overprotective, obsessive mothers and either a father that is never around or is abusive. Studies have shown that the root cause of all behavioral problems in children resides with how they are parented. If you have a mother who can't leave you alone even when you have to take a piss, how do you expect to develop into a full-grown, mature and independent adult? How can you expect to take risks, bend the rules a little bit, and just have fun in your youth when you have a father who will have the paddle/belt ready for you for even the slightest form of disobedience (e.g. breaking curfew).

This is also totally without basis. I'm sure there are plenty of NTs out there who had the type of parents you describe, and also plenty of diagnosed AS people who didn't. This is something you have just made up.

The Aspergers Theory however suggests that your personality and your social skills are predetermined at birth, even though there is no physical evidence of aspergers even existing - not even an MRI/Cat scan shows abnormalities for people who are diagnosed.

I suggest you do your research, there is plenty out there. There are differences in people with ASDs on brain scans that are able to diagnose with 90% accuracy.

Finally, you talk so much about social skills, how do you explain sensory issues and the lack of understanding humour and taking things literally in people with AS then? It's far from being just about social skills, trust me.

Last edited by whirlingmind on 29 Oct 2012, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

You clearly feel strongly about this and, just because something goes against the consensus, I would never disregard it and instead try to judge everything on it's own merits. I do fine problems with quite a lot of your statements though and the logic seems flawed to me.

Asperger's syndrome is not a theory, it is a syndrome which just means an observed collection of clinically recognisable features. If we do talk about scientific terminology, the ideas for the cause(s) of AS (and also the human global warming example you use) are actually both scientific hypothesises. The term theory is tricky because it has two often confused uses - A 'theory' is just any random idea someone has whereas a 'scientific theory' is more equivalent to the common parlance term 'fact' (something believed to be the case beyond all reasonable doubt but, by it's nature, not mathematically provable - Gravity makes things fall, natural selection causes evolution etc. You might want to clarify whether you are taking issue with some of the hypothesised explainations for AS or the syndrome's core features (Which would be a nonsense argument since people clearly do have these grouped features).


I wonder greatly about that in fact - I have never heard that to be the case. Could you explain where this information comes from as it seems doubtful to me.


That statement is about 500 years out of date. the UK is heavily urbanised and has a population density of 256 people/km compared to 32 for the USA.


Maybe you are not on the autism spectrum? I would be very interested to know - Regardless of debate about causes, do you believe that autism exists and that Aspergers is related? The reason I ask is, if you suspect that weather is the reason Aspies often find team sports difficult, you seem to be missing some key points around the nature of autistic difficulties.


If this is, in fact, the most critical cause, then can you explain why my brother and sister are not Aspies also?


You seem to be rather casually denying the existence of a whole raft of neurological conditions proven beyond doubt to be caused by physical processes such as brain damage or genetics. This is one point where I can see you causing serious offence to people unless you can show us all these studies you are talking about. Could you post some links?


The human brain is a honed and complex thing and we are born with the synaptical wiring for building these skills such as sections of the brain which are pre-configured for processing faces etc so, yes skills are learned, but neurological problems/differences can easily impair the ability for these skills to be developed.


As I have said, Asperger's itself is a syndrome which is simply a collection of observed traits and no attempt is made at explanation of cause within the raw definition. There are however, several hypothesised causes for the syndrome and this is far from agreed upon. The leading view in the professional world is that, yes, the root cause is likely genetic since there seems to be a very high heredity rate but that is a long way from implying predetermination of ALL your social skills and your entire personality. I understand that it can sometimes feel like we have our personality defined by ASDs but it is not the case and I get the impression you dont think it is either since you appear to believe the syndrome to be circumstantial rather than truly neurological.


Incorrect but already been covered by others.


Another unfortunate and quite offensive fallacy I'm afraid. Clinical chemical addiction is horrendous and you clearly do not understand the severity of it. To put it into perspective, could you picture people stabbing pensioners to death in order to steal £20 for a WoW subscription? I find this just be be obviously wrong in every way.


Are you certain? The DSM IV was only published in '94 and popularity/acceptance of the diagnosis of newly described conditions often take a while to catch on from what I understand. I was exhibiting a lot of traits in the early 90's but I was completely overlooked and only am coming to this now at 30.


I can only really speak for myself but the real problems for me are caused by the lifelong traits of the syndrome. Learning I have AS is a massive massive reassurance and relief. However bad it is to live with a label, I grew up with this unexplained sense of being a broken human being, someone trying to pretend to be normal and hoping people wouldnt see the truth. I started to think suicidal thoughts at 12 years old and tried a number of times. I mention this not to start a pity contest but to suggest that, had I known why I was like that, I suspect that I could have avoided some of that confusion and knowing others existed with the condition would have reduced my alienation somewhat.


It is a real syndrome - the traits are clearly observable. I understand why the descion was made to align it more clearly with ASDs in the next DSM but, whatever you call it, and whether or not you yourself are affected by it, there are clearly people out there (speaking as one) who fit this very unusual and specific pattern (almost fingerprint-like) of seemingly unrelated behaviours. The most shocking thing for me on reading up on AS was actually just how well I seem to fit the pattern - I hear people talk about their lives with AS in meticulous detail and it is very uncanny.


There are a number of large autism groups both national and international who are involved in this as well as my government passing legislation to require provisions and accommodations be made in educational and healthcare settings for ASDs such as AS.


You already said you don't like the label. If there are groups fulfilling this role what is the benefit in them adding the AS label? Some people need help in this area, some of these people are aspies, some or not. As I said above, there are organisations such as NAS etc which can point aspies at things like toastmasters and fill in any gaps themselves - makes perfect sense to me.



I agree with this - it can be a blessing and a curse I think. If everyone around you instantly recognised you as AS it would bcome quite frustrating I think but I do find it frustrating that the few who have heard of it often are ill-informed.


Again, it is a syndrome derived by observing a set of clinical characteristics. If you have a pain in the head - you have a headache. You have inability to sleep - you have insomnia. You stim, collect, obsesse, clumsy, find eye contact anxiety-indusing etc etc - You have Aspergers Syndrome. It is not a simplification, it is an observation that these things bunch together regularly so deserve a name.


Reading between the lines it sounds like you might simply be in denial about AS (which is perfectly understandable) or (less likely but statistically possible) you one of the very very few people who have almost all of the observable traits of AS but they are caused by some other mechanisms (some of which you mention).

Either way, I don't mean to be too curt or rude but just had to refute a lot of that post.

Si

OP obviousy has no idea what Aspergers or a theory is.

It seems to me that Topic Creator doesn't know what he's talking about. He should befriend someone with AS to gain more knowledge on the matter. Good day.

Wow, you are me!

With all due respect, your refutation of the Asperger's Theory is deeply flawed.

If the social environment led to certain kinds of adaptations, then you would see Aspies concentrated in a particular area. They are not. I was as free as I wanted to be to make social connections as a kid. I had relatively few friends that I was very loyal with. Others had a different experience and befriended lots of people.

Social skills aren't the only thing, there is more to it than knowing the rules. You can learn so-called skills by rote, but that is not the same thing as enjoying friendships and being able to spontaneously take part in social situations. I'm 41, and have learned social skills, but it doesn't make me social. There is still a remarkable difference between how I'm social and how other people are social. Even if I'm able to participate in an apparently normal way, I can only keep this up for so long. Social fatigue sets in rather soon and I have to flee. The senses get overwhelmed by the task, even if I can do it for a short time.

You have failed to point out how a perhaps overly empathic mother would result in the opposite in her children. My mother was the same to all her three boys, but I'm the only one that identifies as autistic. In many ways, her example taught me about social expectations. Autistic children could simply require more care than others, leading to the appearance of being overbearing. I can't speak about the mothers of other autistic people, I haven't met any.

As far as computers, they were largely absent when I was growing up. Don't blame the activities that people choose who don't want to socialize. I simply read books or walked in the woods with my dog.

I had to discover myself about Asperger's. Prior to that, and I think this is a common experience, I felt like I was flawed and that affected my self-esteem. I didn't know what was wrong with me, why couldn't I participate in society as easily as other seemed to do? It wasn't violating social rules, I learned those. It was something different. When I discovered Asperger's, it was a revelation, everything made sense, I didn't have to live up to expectations that were impossible. I was just different and my capacities were different. I stopped feeling sorry for myself and learned to make the best of it. It wasn't my fault, I wasn't just stupid or something (in fact quite the opposite). For this reason alone, the self-diagnosis was beyond worth.

Today I can pass for normal, and this does have it's own problems, as people expect certain behaviors from me, and I have to explain that I can't (or just back out tactfully). It's hard for them because I'm otherwise indistinguishable from everyone else. I consider myself to be a best case scenario as far as outcomes for adults with AS. If your theory was true, then I should have been able to overcome my origins and become totally normal. Believe me, it had been my wish to become normal, but after many years of frustration, I have to conclude that this is impossible. As plastic as the brain might be, there are limits to what it can do with software (learning). I hope my explanation will convince you that Asperger's is a real phenomenon.

There are many egocentric NTs who would like to believe anything just for the sake of feeling special or as an excuse to avoid any responsability, but I do think that Asperger's is a real condition that affects a number of people, even though the number nowadays is a little bit exaggerated and not so accurate because there's an obvious discrepancy between the statistics. However, I have met some kids (very few though, maybe just 2 or 3) in my life who did fit very well in the description of one little boy from Tony Attwood's book "The Complete Guide To Asperger's Syndrome", who exhibited an very unusual interest and had a developed language which is not very typical for a normal boy. Here it is:

What do you say about this, MacDragard? Does he sounds like a normal child? Could his behaviour to be an effect of a trauma, education or bad parenting?

Last edited by AnotherKind on 29 Oct 2012, 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.