LFA people on here creeping me out a bit on here

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Then admit your ignorance as you have done, accept the experience of people on this board such as anbuend who *do* understand it, and stop insisting that their bathroom difficulties are willful and not neurologically-based.

After all, I doubt NTs can understand *your* unusual sensory experiences. Does that mean you are being willful if you meltdown because of sensory overload?

ok I think I understand I know babies do go to the bathroom in there pants but thats because they just don't care where they go thats a developmental issue right there which LFA don't lack because there able to speak an talk

I UNDERSTAND that people pee there pants in there sleep sometimes but most of them are able to change that an eventually grow out of it after lots of training

Have u ever heard of someone pooing there pants in the mieddle of the day for nore ason whatsoever who can speak/talk an type? I Havent and i shouldn't old people its developmental thing but LFA do not have that excuse

Ever heard of asynchronous development? It means that different strengths and skills develop at different rates, and it's par for the course for anyone with an atypical neurology. Yes, it *is* a developmental issue for autistics. The fact that someone can type has *nothing* to do with their ability to use the bathroom consistently. Why would it? What is the connection between these two things?

Autism is a developmental disorder, characterized by developmental delays in certain areas. Including, for some people, the ability to sense when they need to use the bathroom. Toddlers have difficulty recognizing when they need to use the bathroom (it's not just that they don't care), and for some people with autism, their toileting abilities may never have progressed past this point. We all have some abilities which are stuck back in early childhood. For me it's my visual perceptual ability. My verbal skills are ridiculously advanced, but my brain processes visual information like a young child's brain does. For someone else, it may be their ability to recognize when it is time to head to the bathroom. The problem is further complicated when sensory integration dysfunction impacts the ability to detect the body's internal states. I don't understand why you don't get this.

And yes, I *have* heard of people who can speak/type etc. going to the bathroom in their pants during the day, both on this board, and in a hospital where I interned. The reason? Neurological impairments which made it difficult for them to either recognize when they need to go, or to actually physically get to the bathroom.

Last edited by LostInSpace on 30 Aug 2008, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Okay. I see this sort of response a lot among autistic people who aren't familiar with how varied autism is. (And again, if anyone has trouble reading this, ask someone other than me to paraphrase it shorter. I can't do that easily at all and if I try then I won't be able to communicate.)

It usually works something like this: There is a sort of autistic person whose only barrier to doing something is the ability to understand it. They have little to no trouble implementing anything they can actually understand. Or at least most of what they can actually understand.

Such people almost invariably, until learning otherwise, project their own experiences onto autistic people who can do fewer things than they can in some area. So if an autistic person is unable to do something, such a person will say, "That person cannot understand the topic, that is why they cannot do it."

Then if the person sees an autistic person who appears knowledgeable, then until proven otherwise, the person will simply assume that person has a huge swathe of abilities that coincide with that knowledge. (They will also tend to assume that knowledge in one area carries over to all other areas, which is not an accurate assessment in autistic people. How such people explain savants, I have no clue, except they must have a special-category exemption for them but not for the rest of us.)

Then along comes any of the huge number of autistic people who defy that expectation, and usually instead of modifying their expectation, the person will judge the person who defies it in some way. Generally, it's a moral judgment -- creepiness, laziness, unwillingness to learn, attention-seeking, manipulation, etc. Or else sometimes an emotional judgment -- anxiety is a common catch-all explanation although it only applies to some people in reality.

Okay... the reality for the rest of us, is basically twofold:

1. Knowing something in one area does not mean knowing something in another. So even if we're the sort of person who can do anything we know about, it doesn't mean that because we, say, know calculus and astrophysics, then we know basic arithmetic. (That's taken from a real person I know.)

2. For many of us, knowing is not enough to be able to do something.

The first one is fairly straightforward because it doesn't require modifying the basic assumption, "If you know something, you can apply that knowledge." It just requires modifying the assumption that knowledge in one area has to be related to knowledge in another. This idea is fairly close to the fairly typical experience of autistic people excelling in their area of special interest while not necessarily in other areas, so just imagine such a thing more extreme and in more areas of life and you can see how that works.

The second one is complex because there are a number of things that can prevent knowledge from becoming action.

One of those things is retrieval of that knowledge. This means that some autistic people can know a whole lot of things, but only be able to retrieve them in certain limited circumstances that trigger that retrieval. If those circumstances do not coincide with the circumstances that allow most people to retrieve their knowledge, then you've got someone who won't be consistently retrieving their knowledge when expected.

Another of those things is motor control. Most people are aware of things like clumsiness and motor coordination problems, but many movement disorders, including ones that seem to be part of some people's expression of autism, are more complex than that and involve motor planning rather than (or in addition to) clumsiness. Many autistic people have trouble initiating movements, switching from movement to movement, and doing movements that are outside a specified range. This means that even with full comprehension, a person may be unable to execute movements, or have trouble doing so, that demonstrate that comprehension. (Sometimes limited circumstances allow that and others don't.)

Sometimes related to that is body awareness. Many autistic people have trouble interpreting sensations from our bodies, the same way we have trouble interpreting lots of other sensations. This can interact with motor control in all kinds of ways.

Another thing is the problem of having to build something from the ground up, every time. Most people have a learning style where they learn something, and then the foundation stays with them forever, and then they can build on top of that foundation. Some autistic people have to learn something from scratch every time we do it, even though we have the capacity for a great deal of things like this. I often liken it to building something. Where most people have layer upon layer that is sturdy and stays put. Some autistic people, in the same areas, will have to every time build each layer, and the moment they look away, the entire thing falls down and they have to start over. Another analogy I've found is that of the difference between standing on top of a hill at a certain elevation, and scaling a cliff to the same elevation. The person hanging by their fingernails is at some point going to have to fall and start over (and may be too severely injured by the fall to ever climb as far again), but the person standing on solid ground can stay standing there as long as they want. A cliff climber might also climb far higher than that hill, but also fall far lower. So a person might seem to excel in an area and then not be able to do it, while someone else might just have average ability in that area, but their ability is far steadier. I am way very much a cliff climber in most common areas (although I have hills I can stand on in others), so I have always had seemingly wild variation in my ability to do something, from very excellent to not at all.

Somewhat related to that, is that non-autistic people often (in that analogy) start at a certain elevation that they assume is as low as a person can start at, but autistic people often have to start from a lower level, so even if we can climb further, we have to start lower in those areas.

There's also the ability to combine things. Multitasking.

And also, the fact that many of us are taking in so much information at once, that even if our multitasking ability is normal, it can look like we can't multitask. Because what is to "normal" people one set of data, can to us be composed of a thousand sets of data. We seem to often have higher-resolution but just like a computer that can make us perform slower or inconsistently.

And that's all just some of the explanations. But basically, for many autistic people, in many areas, knowledge alone is not sufficient to create ability to do something, or to create consistent ability to do it. (And as such, as in my previous example, being "trained" at a certain age does not mean being able to consistently apply that training, or able to apply that training in different settings, or able to sustain performance at that level all the time.)

I hope this helps, and I hope you see us as less creepy soon because I find that adjective somewhat insulting although I know you probably don't mean it that way. Also here is a link that gives a lot of detail on what are termed 'movement differences', but it relates them to thought and perception as much as to movement.

and they call me low functioning

You are still wrong.

Take that example:
If you cut yourself, then you will immediately do something about it.
Somebody who suffers from leprosy won't feel anything of it and bleed to dead (possible at least).
Sensory is not the same for everybody.

And it's even worse. That example was only very obvious a matter of not getting the information from the nervous system, because it doesn't work at all.

Read those posts about flirting. I know very well in theory, how that works. Still in an actual situation I'm blocked totally for other reasons. I simply can't respond as I know I should, because my brain starts to overflood with other issues, that prevent me from acting.

So even if you have the information and know how to act, your brain makes decisions in another direction. Your mind can be quite independent in some weird ways sometimes. It is not a unique structure, but consiste of many competing needs. Which of those wins is by far not a question of making a "decision", since the decision is the result of the thought process.

Sorry, but that is a very complex matter you hit there and from your responses I think you don't have the knowledge and experience to understand them.

If I may recommend a book to you, that may enable you to understand the vastness of the human mind:
Oliver Sacks
The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat
http://www.oliversacks.com/hat.htm

You will find, that people, otherwise quite normal, may forget the concept of "left", not being able to remember that there are things "left" of something else and many other strange things that can happen, if the brain doesn't work as it is assumed to be "normal"

anbuend why don't you make going to the bathroom your special interest and try to just excel at that for a week and see how you do?

instead of focusing on a different type of special interest like trains or whatever why not say u know what no IM GONNA Make going to the bathroom my special interest im gonna do whenever i think im gonna need to do it an im gonna get this done an im gonna have fun doing it?

Why not juist do that think that for a second and do it?

We all know autistic people have special interest things they like to have fun an focus on 24/7 an you know stim around it

WELL WHY not make going to the bathroom that special thing you do for a couple of days an see if it does anything?

it seems very thing like

If i have trouble dating or flirting why not i make it my special thing to do and just keep doing no matter tell myself thats my thing gonna do gonna do it keep doing it

makes sense right?

Last edited by ProtossX on 30 Aug 2008, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

after you have been in diapers for as long as i have you lose alot of function to feel anything (not that I could really feel anything in the first place) why am I explaining this to you...you obviously hate people like me from this and other posts that you have posted on this board. If you have not gotten the point by now you probably never will and thats fine. I just hope you never have to experience it and go through the same things and have someone say these things about you. as for LFA, I have a program that helps me type. I also have help from people i live with.

thats fine you said in another thread that you're married and you're life is going fine so why do you care what I think anyway?

I'm not married and live with my mom so my life isn't realy going thtat great you seem very content an thats fine mi always tryin to better myself and get myself out of my messes

and im not insutling ppl for having to wear a diaper my brother had to use one of those machines that electrocutes you when you pee cuz he pee'd his pants at night an eventually he learned to stop doing it

Because not everyone wants to be flirted with. It takes two people to flirt, you know? There's nothing more annoying than someone who constantly flirts and hits on people who aren't interested! The only thing more annoying is someone telling others to constantly flirt.

Hello troll.

Being able to speak doesn't preclude one from having severe developmental difficulties. You are obviously unable to understand that certain things cannot be helped. It's like physical disability. Look at Stephen Hawking, is he just supposed to mentally will himself out of his wheelchair?

that is correct. I live not only with my wife but also her family. Life is fine minus the challenges everyday. dont assume that because I do not live with my mother that my life is great. Life is hard no matter where you live or who you live with when you have certain problems. and actually, your brother did not "learn" to stop doing it as bedwetters don't know they are doing it in the first place! how can you learn about something you have no control over?! Do not get me wrong. I do not dislike you, I just think that you assume alot which is probably just part of your AS. I do not hate you. I just have to deal with the same attitude from people and have my whole life and at 30 years old....im tired of it.

ProTossX if flirting is so great and opens so many doors socially what is preventing you from going out, to, let's say, a grocery store, department store, park or shopping mall and do some flirting yourself? Maybe even a nightclub? Maybe even a server in a restaurant but the odds would be more against you because I am sure they get plenty of phone numbers each day

Not being able to control it is actually due to improper development in the midbrain. It has nothing to do with not trying or not practicing.

People like you are very harmful. My neighbor, she is twelve now, is not potty trained because she cannot control her bowels due to a stroke. Child Protective Services took her away and she was temporarily placed with a family who decided her inability to defecate in the proper manner was something willfull that she just hadn't 'tried enough' with. Her new foster mother broke the girl's leg forcing her onto the toilet.

Please only whine when you know what the hell you are talking about.

To be honest, all you've done with this thread is prove you're the creepiest person on Wrong Planet.

Last edited by Aurore on 30 Aug 2008, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yep. I can distinctly remember, as an eleven-year-old student regarded as gifted and at the lifetime height of my ability to pass for "normal", still doing things like pooping in my pants at the dinner table by accident. (In fact, severe constipation is the only thing that kept that from happening more often -- normally it took effort to get anything out. I am rediscovering this as a problem now that I am under treatment for that, and I know an autistic person who refuses to treat her constipation because she knows she'd never make it to the bathroom on time without it.) I just knew enough, by then, to go into the bathroom and dump them out.

My parents never treated it as anything out of the ordinary. Their attitude was "accidents happen". But I knew kids at school severely bullied people for that sort of thing, so my parents were the only ones who knew, and even they didn't know when it happened when they weren't around. (A lot of pee got blamed on the cats that way, but the cats in fact always went outside to do that.) I know a successful computer programmer that still happens to a lot, and nobody would know if he didn't tell them. (In fact people outright assume that it doesn't, and treat him with hostility and suspicion when he says it does.)

It ain't just the "LFA" people who like talking in third person; Daniel would prefer such, but he tries his best to blend in, which doesn't always work for him.

I fail to see anything creepy about it.

I also fail to see how it's creepy for someone to devote a website about a special interest; this is stereotypically "aspie".

I again, also fail to see how it's creepy for adults to need diapers; there's many reasons for such, and most of them are unrelated to Autism--problems with toileting are usually in childhood anyway (not even a large portion either); they aren't there for most adults with Autism.

The ability to speak and write are indirectly related; you know of people who can speak, but can't write? You can have the opposite.