Please help me clarify AS diagnostic criteria

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Tough diamond,

The statement is vague ON PURPOSE! I don't have wings so, unfortunately, I can't fly! Is that a significant impairment? At times, YES!! !! ! I would LOVE to fly on my own! Is it an important area of functioning? Probably not, as I am not expected to be able to.

I can't stand some light, or sounds. Is it significant? Sometimes! Is it an important area of functioning? Sometimes. Is that a possible AS symptom? YEP!

I have trouble relating to some people, etc... AGAIN, sometimes, sometimes, YEP!

If not for those two problems, my life would be VERY different.

SOME here have said that 2 meant things that would violate 2,4, 5, or 6! BTW if I didn't meet 4 and 5 and I didn't meet #2 to cause people to tolerate me more, it would be YES, YES, NO.

Heck, look at labpet. She all but REFUSES to talk. THAT could be seen as significant. She MIGHT say sometimes, instead of yes, because she has allowances. That could be seen as an important area of functioning, but she may say sometimes. Of course, that is NOT a possible AS symptom.

I've been known to do fine even when working for a boss who was a notorious exploiter and a pain in the butt with no interpersonal skills - I think it was because she just gave me broad targets and let me get on with them in my own way, she never had time for many meetings with me. I got used to her personality and just found her annoying, she never really wound me up, though she reduced some people to tears. I think she was a little bit scared of me, as if she sensed my anger rising when she was "trying it on", she'd back down as if she'd just read my mind. I heard that she spoke very highly of me behind my back.

Flexibility is a huge problem for me, if anybody should interfere at the wrong time it can wind me up, and if anybody tries to impose flexibility on me, that's like a red rag to a bull, especially since I learned about AS......I start to feel like somebody's about to force me to walk on a broken leg.

Thanks so much for all these posts, they're really clearing a few blocks for me - I'm getting a very solid idea of how AS is affecting my life, and a lot of what I've written is new to me, or I never realised its relevence to this part of the diagnostic criteria before. You people have been really helpful

Noise gets to me a lot - some people at work play music in an adjoining room, the boss has made it plain that he'll back anybody up who gets distracted, if they ask the culprit to turn it down first. I've had to do that a few times, but I don't like to, it doesn't seem to be a good way of getting on with people. Resentment builds up in me, and anxiety, it's been tolerable so far because of coping strategies, but one of these days it might happen at the wrong time. Some folks just talk too loud, or have those stupid cellphones with horrible pop songs, or computers makind daft noises. Those things there's no word from the boss about, so it's harder to tackle. I kind of dislike myself for not tackling them, but ultimately I'm only one guy and if nobody else minds then I just feel like an awkward SOB. I have a lot of trouble giving criticism when it has to be impromptu, usually I just don't bother, and when I do bother I can get quite nasty.......I can even know the right words to say, and the intonation, but I just won't go and say them. Is that AS? It's sure holding me back. I've occasionally managed it, but it never gets any easier, so I don't think it's just shyness about a new hurdle to jump.

I feel a huge difficulty in relating to people, like I spoil most of my chances of doing that by staying in my own head too much, and I think I've noticed NTs (especially women) who just relate naturally, though they seem to waste it on very trivial stuff. I think if I ever do get this relating thing right, I might do it on a much deeper level. I've managed it a few times while on recreational drugs, but that's as bad as taking meds, and it doesn't happen to order, though it's a crying shame these things aren't safe and sustainable or I'd have got into that a lot more.

Some? Generally, you need to have problems with relating to everyone to have an ASD, and problems with relating to people is quite a minor impairment in regards to an ASD. Perhaps you may mean a different term with "relate" than I do.

That's good example of what I believe criteria 3 is getting at.



Here, DSM IV disagrees with you. I've read and reread it and find nothing at all about sensory issues being a symptom of Aspergers Syndrome. Of Autism, yes, but not Aspergers. Many with AS *do* report sensory issues, but then many of them have blond hair too, it doesn't mean it's a symptom. For example, I've been diagnosed AS, yet as an adult, have no real sensory issues, but plenty of social issues. Wanting to violently smash the speakers when hearing rap music doesn't count, apparently

Not that DSM IV is correct, just that the whole symptom list seems subjective. When does an "Umarked" umpairment become a "Marked" impairment? When does a marked "difference" become a marked "impairment"?

The important thing is that ToughDiamond has now got a good list of examples to present!

It's bizarre isn't it? It's such an obvious problem that can affect the Aspie's life profoundly - it destroys my capacity to think and focus - yet it counts for nothing as far as DSM IV is concerned.


Yes, it's subjective. I guess nobody knows how to objectively measure the impairment of life quality in an individual who can more or less "get by."


Yes I wrote a lot didn't I? So, what do you think? does it look as if my problems would be in the ballpark of a positive diagnosis? I find it so hard to judge......kind of reminds me of the time when I explained to somebody why I was leaving my job and going to live in an alternative community - they said they were sorry to hear how painful my existing lifestyle had become, and I just replied straight away that it really wasn't that bad - yet if not, why did I pull up roots and run away from everything like I did? Somehow it's like I'm in denial, scared of exagerrating the pain. My dad used to say that when he felt down, he'd just remember that if he wasn't in any great physical pain and had recently eaten, had a place to sleep, etc., then really nothing was really wrong. The same kind of touchstone seems to keep me going. So when a GP says "you're not ill" then something inside immediately agrees with him, and when an NT says "you're ill" I get angry. Somebody once said they thought I'd been through a hell of a lot, and I just felt they were making an excuse to see me as a lesser person than them. My wife thinks of examples for the GP and most of the time I say "yes, but...." And I wrote all this stuff, all honest and accurate - and still I don't feel sorry for myself.

I wouldn't use your AS as an excuse there. So you found out why you are the way you are but don't use that label as a crutch to not work on things. It makes us look bad and it's being dishonest. It be like a person finding out why they are such a b***h, it's because they have a condition that makes them act that way, lets say NPD, so they think they can keep acting that way and treating people like dirt than working on it and getting help. Those kinds make me mad. You can't compare AS to a psychical condition even though people can get over their broken legs but only if they had sprained it or broken a bone in it vs it being parolized.

I had to break through that wall by learning to be flexible without freaking out and getting anxiety over it and melting down because that sure won't help me keep a job in the future. I was just lucky to have a boss who was understanding but she didn't give me special rules, so I had time to overcome that weakness. Just how many bosses out there will fire us on the spot without giving us a chance to work on it?

I do say everyone has things they need to work on so that's how I view my AS.

Yep! This was a HUGE problem when I was in the Air Force, in the mid 80's. I lived in the dorms, where people were constantly playing their music really loud. I learned quickly that if you complain before about midnight, you are branded as a person with an attitude problem. If you asked people to please turn down their music, they would say things like, "What? You don't like Skynard? This is a classic! How can you not like Skynard?" And I wanted to explain that, when I'm in the right mood, I like Lynard Skynard just fine. The issue is that I'm exhausted after another long day of sitting in an office with a bunch of baffoons, feeling nervous all the time because the boss is constantly finding something that I didn't do well enough or thoroughly enough, and I never know when I'm going to get chastised for having a hair out of place or for putting the wrong date for an airplane's next oil change...and I desperately need to lie down on my bed and enjoy some QUIET. Or to be able to quietly listen to my own music without someone else's music on top of it. But I could never say those things, even to myself. It took many years before I could think beyond, "This place sucks and everyone is an a--hole."

Maybe your dose of the spectrum is different to mine in that respect - your experience seems to be that if you try to be more flexible, you succeed. In my case, I fail. Sure, I can break off from what I'm doing, and tune in to whatever the subject matter of the intrusion is about. But the process is slow and unreliable, and on attempting to return to the original task, it takes me an inordinate amount of time to return to it. No amount of willingness to be flexible changes it. Even the attention shift necessary to inform somebody politely that I can't deal with them right away, and to suggest another time when I might be free to deal with their matter, just doing that is enough to throw me off the scent of what I was doing.

I should add that my work - science research - necessarily involves abnormal concentration and meticulous attention to detail (it's part of my job description), the slightest mistake can throw the whole operation out in such a way as to trash hours of patient labour. One colleague remarked that they simply wouldn't be able to do my job, as the demand for strong focus would be too great, and they'd be making mistakes even if they could work in complete isolation. My AS is indeed a valid excuse to be left alone to do the job right, and my AS is also the reason why I have the power of focus to do the job in the first place.

I suspect there are areas of my job in which I could, in theory, focus less without losing any production quality. But strangely, I can't. When I think about a job, I can't seem to avoid focussing on it, obsessing over it, I wouldn't know how to gloss over a task in the slipshod way other people seem to. And with the potent focus comes the inability to switch mentally to another task and back in a reasonable time. It would be like trying to park a juggernaut in a small room full of eggs - one can try but it's intrinsically foolish. Of course there are some jobs that are so easy and repetitive that the brain isn't involved at all, like riding a bike or monotonous production-line work. I'd have no problem being distracted from that, in fact I'd be glad of the release from the tedium. I gather those jobs are managed by a different part of the brain, or by the spinal cord, which is probably not affected by AS brain-wiring problems.

As for bosses firing anybody on the spot for one failure, I presume you're not in the UK. Here, especially in the public sector where I am, we're entitled to a fair trial and appropriate warnings before we can be dismissed, unless it's serious misconduct such as violence or sexual/racial harrassment of course. Socialism, even the tiny bit of it we get in the UK, has its good points.

It's really weird reading your post, I'm usually the one who's standing up for breaking through the impairments, like when my wife doesn't give me a chance to prove my mettle, or when the counsellor says I can't do this or that because of my AS, and I just can't believe it can be so bad. You seem to have misjudged me quite widely, though without knowing me better I guess that's not really your fault. I'm not bad, I'm not dishonest, I don't use a label as a crutch. Anybody else here think I'm like that?

The parts that significantly "impair" my functioning as it were, is my executive dysfunction, I often forget ALOT of things and I am terrible at organising myself and need constant reminding. Also I'm quite emotionally immature and find it hard to control my anger/frustration when at home (sometimes out when with family) and my mood regulating sucks so I can get meltdowny over little annoyances. I am also a notorious daydreamer and that can get in the way of important things, like for example I have to finish work at school or clean my room and then suddenly space out so it takes me forever to do things. My auditry procsessing sucks and I keep having to ask people to repeat what they said and it takes me forever to answer a question because it took so long to process the damn thing.

My impairments are pretty mild but they are still significant to me.

Lordy! It's amazing how much bullying and insensitivity there is in the world. Me, I've just shut down 2 noisy neighbours here in civvy street, who thought they could turn the neighbourhood into a 24-7 acid house party........the local council have a noise pollution service - they make no allowances for hyperhearing (my wife asked them, much to my embarrassment), but the volume was enough to wake the dead anyway, so they took a few sound pressure readings and out went the warning letters - seems to have worked. Before that I'd tried politely asking them, all I got back was "OK," followed by a brief volume reduction and then back to full level......repeating the request and mentioning reporting them did no good either, so I had to do it the official way....wasn't expecting it to work, but wow!

As for your nitpicking C/O's, my heart goes out to you and I'm beginning to realise how lucky I am - for two pins I'd have joined up when was younger but somehow it never happened. Still, I heard from one guy in the RAF who benefitted - they diagnosed his dyslexia for him during his National Service just after WW2. and made adjustments. Prior to that everybody had just told him he was stupid. I guess it depends who you get and where it is.

When I was your age I knew something was wrong with my learning, even called it "the X disease" but I never dared tell anybody. I used to imagine maybe a brain surgeon might be able to do an operation one day to put it right. Mostly it was just that the teachers weren't clear enough for me so I got left behind and very confused, and doing homework was impossible, I spend most of my weekends worrying about it. I just hid my problems or got punished for not doing the work when they found out. I keep away from education these days, I just blank out too often so it's wasted on me. I can only learn in my own ways, and much better just doing practical things. I could never tidy up my stuff, I'm better than I was but there's still loads of stuff I can't find, it's not the work, it's the organisational skills, I just don't know what to do, I analyse it too much and somehow can't understand what I'm trying to do. It's kind of functional but nothing like the way most people organise their things.

What does it mean if your difficulties are only social and you have problems with aggression? What if you have no trouble with school/ managing finances/ negotiation/driving/cooking/self help but you have trouble with making small talk/informal communication and you also have trouble controlling your temper? I have executive dysfunction but also the ability to get things done quickly and on time if necessary. I perform better under pressure.

Last edited by timeisdead on 08 May 2009, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I often find that when faced with a task that requires alot of organising (for example tidying up or doing homework) my mind goes completely lost and I don't know where to start, and then I just go off into my thoughts and how I don't want to do the task that I completely forget it. I also get lost alot and it takes me forever and a day to learn the dierections to a new place, and I can hardly ever ask for help with directions because I'm terrible with spoken instructions.

It was the way you worded your post. You made it sound like "Oh I have Aspergers, I don't have to be flexible or even work at it."

I also had a school counselor who thought I couldn't do this and that because of my AS so when my mom ran into him at a bank, she told him she found me a psychologist for me to see and he told her she was wasting her money and I would never learn this and that and my mom decided she didn't want me to see him anymore. It just made her mad when he said that about me.

I used to use my AS as an excuse in my teens because I thought it gave me special treatment and I was supposed to get my way and stuff because autistic kids sure did and I used to wish I was truely autistic so I get my way and when I said that to my mother, she surprised me with her response. She said "No you wouldn't" and I said "not even if I tantrum and throw things and wreck stuff and hurt you guys?" and she said "Nope" and she said she would probably would have sent me away if I was so I could get help, not because she wouldn't want me. When I was 17 I was shocked when my therapist said it was wrong to let autistic kids get their way because what does it teach them? Even my ex told me lot of therapists say that same thing about autistic kids to parents. "It's wrong to give in on them and let them have their way."

My family sure set me straight about using my condition as an excuse. They made my life miserable, tortured me, by not making the house look like a palace, letting my brothers have parties, letting them be in my area which was the basement, etc. and didn't give rats if I had meltdowns and anxiety. They got mad at me about them or ignored them. I used to think I was being abused back then but I realize as an adult I was just a spoiled brat who wanted my way and thought I should get my way because of my AS because I had deluded myself from the internet about AS thinking we should all get our way and stuff. I was told on another forum I was very lucky because most of us would have committed suicide or hate our parents for the rest of our lives. Well I did want to kill myself back then too because I was so depressed and I hated my anxiety and I was getting punished for it and I couldn't even avoid it unless my family followed my standards but they refused. My mother said I wasn't the only person in the house and my brothers have rights too. I see it as they all did me a big favor. Who knows what I would have been like today if they didn't do what they did when I was in high school. Maybe be using my AS as an excuse still and thinking at my last job I don't need to be flexible so I refuse to try and work at it by learning to shut off my feelings by ignoring them. I was surprised when my mother told me over the phone that was not right what I did because I have every right to my feelings and you know what I told her? I told her that was the only way I could be flexible. She did tell me my AS is no excuse for my behavior so I changed. She didn't give in on me or let me have my way when I still lived with them. She taught me that and that is the only way I can be flexible is by shutting off my feelings and ignroing them and telling them to shut up because I want to be indepenant, successful, not be crippled by my condition.

So I basically tortured myself to learn to be flexible. My mom told me it's not healthy to ignore your feelings and shut them off but how else was I supposed to learn? I hated myself for that problem so I did someting about it. But what I notice which is ironic is I see regular people being inflexible too and I feel anger inside me and annoyance because I had to go through the trouble learning how so I expect them to be flexible too. Why did I have to learn and they don't need to be flexible? I just shake my head and think "stupid people, they are acting like aspies." I just want to yell at those regular people for their inflexibility. Then I feel inside I shouldn't bother to be flexible anymore if they aren't going to be. I will still be flexible at work because I don't want to get fired but I won't be flexible in my own house and stuff if regular people aren't going to be. It's just not fair.

As for me:

Social domain: isolated without the 'net; can't interact with people
Academia: can't sit in a classroom with people, and have no desire to learn something I'm not interested in
Vocational: can't work around people, and can't take orders from the same

It doesn't have said clause in Autistic Disorder, which I have, but since so many people say HFA is like AS....