Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me

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The DSM-5 page for autism spectrum disorder includes the rationale for the merging into one diagnosis. It's not exceedingly arbitrary at all - it's explained fairly clearly and has strong reasoning behind it. It's not reasoning everyone agrees with, but it's reasoning that has a lot of evidence to support it at this time.

One of the studies that led to this found that different clinics tended to favor specific diagnoses - someone who would be diagnosed with autism in one clinic might be diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in another, or PDD-NOS in a third. And to a point, each diagnosis would be correct (although autism should override both AS and PDD-NOS as a diagnosis).



It has nothing to do with the validity of Asperger's Syndrome as a diagnosis - the people working on the DSM-5 certainly consider AS to be a valid diagnosis, or at least the people diagnosed with it have a valid reason for a diagnosis. The problem that they've identified is that a lot of the people diagnosed with it actually meet the criteria for autism. And that trying to define a clear separation between the three diagnoses I mentioned above is fairly difficult and requires a lot of guesswork and assumption - that is, it's not very scientific.



This is a huge assumption on your part. I recently spent a year in therapy, and I questioned every aspect of my existing and potential diagnoses, and many others here talk about questioning their own as well. As a group, autistic people tend not to simply take things on faith (from my own observations) but often ask a lot of questions, sometimes to the point of actually antagonizing people in the process. You're not a unique snowflake because you're willing to ask questions. Many here do. I spent months researching everything I could find about autism, and the fact that I came to a different conclusion than you did does not mean my thinking on this topic is shallow or wrong. I am not interested in any "word of god" and I certainly don't take psychiatrists as any kind of "god."



Actually, what I say has been supported by existing research. I can't make a statement about everyone on Earth who might be labeled with AS or HFA, but I can say that professionals have found it difficult to distinguish between people diagnosed with AS and people diagnosed with HFA. You do not need a world-wide study to test every single autistic person against this idea, you simply need a statistically significant sample. And - in statistically significant numbers - AS and HFA have similar presentation and outcomes.



No one is telling you to identify as autistic or Asperger's. However, the point of my response was that I found it somewhat disturbing that you tried to shut Matt62 out of the conversation because his diagnostic label was autism rather than Asperger's Syndrome, while accusing him of trying to shut down debate. He wasn't shutting down debate, he was disagreeing with statements you made. His statements about AS are indeed accurate for many on this forum, as you could determine by reading any number of threads discussing these issues.



Without it I had no language to describe my limitations or even awareness that I had those limitations. The entire idea of "social impairments" is ephemeral to me because those same impairments make it difficult for me to even understand what they mean, let alone perceive them in action. Without having a framework in which to understand my own cognition, perception, and behavior, I would never understand them, or be able to account for them. It's taken months of work to identify these things and come to some kind of understanding of what they mean - and then it's still difficult to generalize them without a lot of effort.

But knowing these things - my sensory sensitivities, shutdowns, lack of nonverbal cues, inability to read cues from others, etc. - makes it easier for me to explicitly account for them.

Why would I want to avoid this self-awareness and any relevant diagnoses? Why wouldn't I want to have more knowledge as to who and what I am and how I function? My life prior to diagnosis was not exactly pretty - one burnout after another because I did not realize I had any impairment or limits at all, and kept trying to function on the same level as NTs, exhausting myself over and over again, plus developing major depression. Now I know better.

None of this is "victim mentality." I am not a victim of my diagnoses or my neurology. I don't see the point in hiding from myself or pretending parts of myself don't exist.

We have completely different mindsets so are never going to reach agreement on this issue.

From my own point of view, when I focus in on 'what's wrong with me' it makes me feel worse about myself. It makes me feel separated from the norm and less 'able' than if I just focus on what I need to do in life regardless.

I functioned better pre diagnosis then after it so from my own point of view it's better for me to dispense with the diagnosis. Diagnosis has brought me into contact with more intelligent people who are on my wavelength but it has not made my life any easier; it's made me stop trying as hard as I did pre-diagnosis, when I assumed I was 'normal'. I have realised I am as normal as I decide to be - it's not for others to define my normality.

My locus of control is now positioned back within myself and not outside, in the hands of people who would seek to define me in a limiting way for which, most ironic of all, they weren't even able to provide me with any support whatsoever!

I've had to support myself and as a result have decided the label is meaningless to me. It brings no benefit and actively causes me to be stigmatised by others, by placing me in the 'not normal' category in their minds.

We have completely different mindsets so are never going to reach agreement on this issue.

From my own point of view, when I focus in on 'what's wrong with me' it makes me feel worse about myself. It makes me feel separated from the norm and less 'able' than if I just focus on what I need to do in life regardless.

I functioned better pre diagnosis then after it so from my own point of view it's better for me to dispense with the diagnosis. Diagnosis has brought me into contact with more intelligent people who are on my wavelength but it has not made my life any easier; it's made me stop trying as hard as I did pre-diagnosis, when I assumed I was 'normal'. I have realised I am as normal as I decide to be - it's not for others to define my normality.

My locus of control is now positioned back within myself and not outside, in the hands of people who would seek to define me in a limiting way for which, most ironic of all, they weren't even able to provide me with any support whatsoever!

I've had to support myself and as a result have decided the label is meaningless to me. It brings no benefit and actively causes me to be stigmatised by others, by placing me in the 'not normal' category in their minds.

I don't understand why agreement is necessary - I know several people on this forum disagree with my perspectives and opinions on several topics, but most of them remain amicable (or so they appear to me). I am usually more interested in being understood than in strict agreement.

I can respect that we'll never agree, but I have no reason to agree or disagree with you on how you view yourself just as you have no reason to agree or disagree with me on how I view myself.



I don't understand this perspective. I am aware of what I can do as well as what I cannot. I try to focus on my strengths as well as find ways to accommodate my weaknesses, but denying they exist would only harm me. Prior to diagnosis, I thought that the things that were wrong with me were moral failures: Laziness, for example. I couldn't understand why everything I attempted ended either in failure or spectacular burnouts. When I burned out attempting college, I just went back and tried harder...and burned out again, because I had no understanding of what was wrong. It wasn't that I wasn't intelligent enough or motivated enough or anything else, it was that my neurology doesn't work that way. I would have been better off with a lighter class load and more care taken to not push myself so hard.



I don't try as hard as I did pre-diagnosis, but trying that hard caused me so many problems it wasn't good for me. As in a few months of productivity turning into several months of no productivity at all because I'd used up all of my reserves. I may achieve less in a single day, but I can achieve more over a year, and I am less likely to become relatively nonfunctional for months at a time just to recover from pushing myself so hard.

I don't really have a good definition of "normal" so I don't really think too much about "normal" or how I might relate to what "normal" might be. It seems to me like a waste of time to worry about it.



My locus of control is positioned within myself, more strongly than it ever was before. Since I have a better understanding of who I am and how I function I can not only account for those things, I can set useful boundaries with other people, try to plan out projects at a pace that I can manage, and so on. I can also take medication for some of my (non-autistic) difficulties enabling me to better cope with them.



I've found that many things lead to me being stigmatized by others, but labels haven't caused that. Often people decide I do not behave normally, or I don't do their idea of gender correctly, or they perceive my difficulties in finishing projects I start as laziness when it is executive dysfunction. I am accustomed to being stigmatized for many reasons - most of which I consider nonsensical and ignorant, but they've never been dependent upon what I've chosen to call myself.

Melanieee, are you trolling?

Thank you Verdandi, you've summed up exactly how I feel about my own diagnosis. One of the major reasons I come to WP is to find out more about myself and to find positive validation for my experiences. I don't consider myself a victim, either, but it's really nice to confirm that I'm not crazy or lazy etc...

I NEVER shut down a debate, you mis-interpet my intent. In fact, you seem unaware of how you are coming across to everyone here. Your language seems to almost put us down, or minimize our challenges. In point of fact, I do believe they relate directly to YOU and that your argument is more about DENIAL for yourself..
Origionally, I was coming in to the debate from the OPs statement of we adult ASD people seeming normal to her. I never thought she was trying to say it did not exist, just that it seems to die-off in adulthood. And my argument was THIS. It only SEEMS that way. We do eventually learn to cope, but never totally.
Just enough to pretend "normalacy"
Sincerely,
Matthew

Whatever works for you Matthew

You can twist it however you like but my stance is the very opposite of denial about my abilities to cope with life - I believe I can cope, so I will

Then you are blissfully unaware of your own challenges Nessa. Your language comes off angry & dismissive, yet you refuse to see it. Even if (because off??) someone points it out to you.
BTW, this exchange is also undermining your hypothesis. If I have difficulties understanding meanings in another's communication, that is a bit more than "Identity confusion" My identity is a political moderate, an ex-student of human behavior(all of it, not just Autism or Abnormal psych), an animal lover, etc. Autism is something that has caused numerous difficulties in me getting where I am now in life. Its not about figuring out who I am or what I believe. That is not what this Forum is about, also. I do not stim because I am confused about my identity, I stim because I have done so since I could walk & reach for objects. From VERY early infancy.
Are there some here that might be looking for an identity? I'm sure one or two are, but most of us are/have facing/faced enormous difficulties in life. That is why some qualify for disability, because on this spectrum, unless you are VERY mild, you have some measure of disability (despite what the people in denial want to claim, that it us all the NT world not understanding us or wanting to let us live our differences). That is a fact..
Your refusal to see it, notwithstanding..

Sincerely,
Matthew

I think you're the one coming across as angry and dismissive Matthew

No, I think Matthew is right. You are unaware of your own challenges. You are angry and dismissive.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread again after you responded after my previous post with several very reasonable explanations of where your perspective comes from. But then that mask slipped again.

I was diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and the psych informally added "towards the Asperger end" indicating in his perspective - which was of a psychiatrist with a special interest in adults on the autistic spectrum - that Asperger Syndrome/HFA are synonymous. Amongst other labels, I identify with autistic, AS, and also "normal" - because although having an ASD presents significant challenges (not just social issues) for me, it is also the only state of normal I have ever known. The diagnosis didn't change who I am. I didn't start acting differently after the diagnosis - I certainly didn't "live down" to the diagnosis, as you have previously suggested "most" people do. If I did act differently, it would have been to try even *harder* after the diagnosis - and I've already described the mess that ended up in. But it's a mess I'd no doubt have ended up in without an ASD diagnosis - the diagnosis makes no difference ... I have an ASD & EDD and would have ended up in this mess regardless of whether I knew the labels or not.

You, by your own admission, are the one who let having a label suddenly change who you were. Don't assume everyone is like you. Most on this forum really don't appear to be.

But you seem to have difficulty accepting that, just as you do with accepting your diagnosis of AS. Why did you go to the psychiatrist in the first place? You said you didn't ask for the AS label and it came as a surprise... people don't tend to see a psychiatrist unless they are in need of some form of support, so regardless of the label you felt you needed support. You receive ESA and are in the support group rather than the work activities group, so clearly that system also feels you have significant difficulties. You just don't want to see them.

I don't think you need any kind of support if you are truly happy with how things are for you right now. But the anger that shows through in your posts is telling a different story.

If you'd bothered to read my previous posts you'd know I was referred to the psychiatrist via the occupational health dept of my current job - but don't let the facts get in the way of wild speculation eh?

I'm not angry - you seem to think you know me better than I know myself - that's rather arrogant in my opinion

I'd say I'm more irritated by peoples' inability to just listen to what I have to say without sitting in judgment from on high

You are evidently unable to tolerate a different view of the Asperger diagnosis - it seems to threaten you

That's your problem, not mine

You seek to re-inforce the status quo re 'how people are meant to act towards their diagnosis'
I'm just not as much of a conformist as you and 'all the others' you seem to think you speak for on this board.

I prefer to let each person speak for themself, not use them as ballast to try and reinforce my weak argument

Carry on though - it's amusing, if highly predictable!

I'd say that from what I've read this has been as true for you as for the people you're accusing this of with how much you seem to be putting into our views of ourselves.

However, if people say that people with Asperger's are often disabled, that won't do harm to you if you choose to not identify as autistic.

People who claim your "different view", that Asperger's isn't really a disability and that people with that diagnosis are unwilling to try, has caused me harm and pain.

I'll agree that people trying to force the label on you and trying to make claims about you can cause you pain as well, and possibly has done so.

The "different view" that you're discussing is what I've seen as the popular view. Asperger's is only a slightly different way of thinking and isn't a disability. I'm just lazy, not disabled; I'm just a liar, don't have issues; I'm just trying to get away with not having a job when I've put far more effort than those accusing me of that have put into any sort of employment.

They attack me, they tell me I'm not good enough. They tell me I'm worthless. They ruin my self esteem by telling me how I'm innately wrong and how everything is my fault. They try to force me into situation which cause me immense physical pain, that cause migraines, that cause meltdowns and shutdowns, then tell me that I can't react to things in that manner. They directly put me into situations that hurt me and claim that they're doing things that are good for me and can't hurt me. They tell me that I'm not disabled.

The ableism that comes with a diagnosis of Aspeger's, especially in non-mild cases, is huge. I deal with statements of people trying to say that I'd be doing better I just tried to be normal or thought of myself as just a little different most days, and the days which I don't usually are because I don't even interact with most places I interact with on the internet. I'm told that I must be lying about my abilities and about my difficulties multiple times a week, often people pushing so hard that I barely prevent a meltdown because of having been attacked so deeply.

Your different view is not actually that different. It's someone that I am faced with people trying to force on me on a very regular basis.


It doesn't matter at all to me how you view yourself. If you expand from it being about yourself and into being about adults with Asperger's, though, you're making it be about me and are doing things that do cause me pain regularly, and that make it far more difficult for me to be even able to do the things that you're trying to claim that we can do.

Go ahead and say that you've been diagnosed and that you think that identifying with the diagnosis has made you less capable, but once you've gone on for 5 pages on this thread and many posts on others about how we should be doing the same thing, rather than making it about yourself, it is something that is reasonable for us to take personally.

Do what you feel makes yourself most capable. Let me do what I feel makes myself most capable. Don't let your view of yourself affect me, don't say that others are necessarily like you, or even often like you (as studies have shown 90% of people diagnosed with Asperger's would, depending on where they were diagnosed been diagnosed with classic autism.) And please, for your own sake, be careful about burnouts. Burnouts are incredibly unpleasant and something that many of us have had to cope with for pushing ourselves as hard as you seem to be wanting us to push ourselves.

Ah, yes I did miss that, and I can't right now be bothered to read back through everything. Occupational Health. People generally don't get involved with Occupational Health unless you are having significant difficulties at work. They referred you to a psychiatrist - to get a better view of your difficulties. You were diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome. You don't gain anything by rejecting that diagnosis. It's just a label that describes your difficulties.



Are you not arrogant? And I'm not claiming that I'm not arrogant ... I know I'm quite capable of it (in writing, anyway).



Find that quite amusing in light of all your judgements of people and situations on this thread and others. Oh, and I'm kinda of short and don't have a pedestal.



Not at all. It doesn't threaten me in the least.

All I am doing is sharing my *personal* experience and hoping you will also accept our experiences as valid in the way that you want us to accept yours.

I can entirely accept that for many having an Asperger and/or HFA diagnosis can be considered as a difference, and that they are not disabled by it. There are many here who choose that view for themselves. But they represent it in a way that comes across much more balanced than your arguments do.

There are also many who are significantly disabled by their AS/HFA. I think I'm somewhere in between.



Again, not at all. I don't seek to reinforce anything. People will react to their diagnosis however they react.

I reacted by accepting the diagnosis and continuing to try to help myself in the ways you advocate. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to prevent me from ending up in a mess, and I should have asked for help and support sooner.

You on the other hand reacted by changing the way you saw yourself, "living down" to your diagnosis, and asking for help and support you did not need. I personally think it is good that through your experiences you recognised that this was not helpful for you. Because honestly, "living down" like that isn't helpful for anyone. That doesn't mean you have to reject your diagnosis, and forcefully try to persuade others that the AS diagnosis is a load of hokum.

EDITED TO ADD:
I think the folk who have it right are the ones who manage the middle ground - not living down to anything, but also not striving to be something they are not ... accepting who they are with their abilities and disabilities and getting on with life and it's challenges in a way that does not harm themselves.

I personally think both you and I reaching that point but coming from different directions, and that we also both have some distance to go.



I don't think I speak for anyone else on this board - and I don't want to speak for them. They are quite capable of speaking for themselves.



Likewise!

Lol

Touche!

I find it difficult to understand why you post all over this forum that the best, healthiest perspective from which to view having AS is your particular view, and advising people to adopt that view... but then you use the word "conformist" to describe people who are not willing to conform to your view. Or maybe only people who adopt a view you disagree with are conformists? Which would make no sense.

I guess to me the term "conformist" says that people are doing something to socially fit in, and I don't think people are accepting their diagnoses in order to "fit in." I've actually encountered a lot of friction from other people for accepting my diagnoses and trying to learn how to live with them - I would say the more "conformist" view is rejecting the idea of disability entirely, given the conversations I've had.