Don't you think the mercury myth cheapens our existence?

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You don't see the rates of decline prior to the introduction of immunisation, the peak-and-trough patterns of the disease rates, or the numbers of how many cases there were in the years prior to introduction either...

Well, the thing is that prior to people saying it happened just after vaccines, they'd find a major event in the person's life and say it happened 'right after' that. Vaccines happen right in the age range that lots of autistic people are learning to speak, and therefore heading for that 'regression'. The same as new siblings are often born in that time period (because of the timing on when most people have kids), and that used to be frequently blamed for that loss. So did events like divorce, witnessing violence, and other things that are common in general and can occur right around then.

It's not hysterical, crazy, or paranoid to imagine a correlation between two events that isn't there, it's actually part of how the human brain is wired. It's also not any of those things to retrospectively change events in one's memory, to fit a theory -- it's in fact trivially easy to do so (it's been studied), it's again part of how the human mind operates.

Which is why people do a lot of testing on these things. And right now the guess with the most evidence for it is timing of language acquisition, and/or timing of skills development in general.

Remember the vaccine has only been introduced in some countries. And in places where the vaccine was introduced for measles (which is super-contagious otherwise) between 2000 and 2006, the World Health Organization says measles deaths fell anywhere from 68%-91% depending on location.

If you lose speech, it's usually sometime in the toddler years--during a time of major life stress. It's the first time you're expected to be independent, to obey rules, to interact socially, to use more and more sophisticated physical skills... No wonder!

Right before the polio vaccine project was completed there was a massive epidemic. That's why Salk and Sabin felt compelled to release the vaccine before they were sure it was safe.

Some diseases really were in decline due to sanitation, though, when the vaccines were released. Yet who wanted to wait until another "peak" before they started innoculating?

For various reasons* I wouldn't trust the WHO as far as I could proverbially throw it...

Parents aren't talking about it happening in the weeks surrounding vaccination, they're talking a matter of hours immediately following vaccination. Immediately after being jabbed a child screaming, howling, acting strangely and then changing within the hours afterwards. If a kid stood on a bee and their foot swelled up, would you doubt it was from the bee sting? Or would you just assume the foot was going to swell anyway? Exactly the same thing.

Again, I'm not saying this is the case with all autism - far from it. I don't even believe it's 'true' autism, as 'true' autism is genetic in nature, as we know. I'll happily attest to that; it's rife through my family and always has been. But it is the case for some families - surely they deserve to be taken seriously and have their cases looked into, rather than ignored because they're taking to task something we've all been told is safe and good? If they were moaning about anything else it would be investigated promptly and things possibly changed to minimise risk. The only reason they aren't is because they're challenging one of the holy pillars of modern medicine.




*google 'codex alimentarius'

WELL GOSH I WONDER WHY

http://www.logicalimages.com/resourcesB ... allpox.htm

The government actually did a whole investigation of the DTP in the eighties, when all those awful reports came out, BTW. They've only stopped such investigations because of what you mentioned, that is, the growing paranoia of the anti-vaccine movement that makes such concerns look less serious.

I don't understand this distrust of apparently benign organisations that are only concerned with people's welfare. The WHO has done a hell of a lot of good over the past. Why exactly are they untrustworthy?

Anbuend, I did not make any sort of claim that mercury was a causal agent; only that it seems to have an exacerbating effect. I also did not support the idea of mercury in vaccines at all... that isn't how I read those four points. Yes, I am aware it runs in families - that is how I discovered it myself, through research when my son was diagnosed. My mom seems to have some minor characteristics but not to an extent that impairs her. She grew up in Utah, away from the coast. All the study indicated was, based on a survey, there were four factors that had a higher than common incidence... at least, that is as much credence as I could give it. Mercury is a common element, and is more pervasive in modern society... it would not be a stretch to find it having an effect on the process of autistic development - again, I am NOT blaming mercury, but allowing that naturally occurring mercury and contamination in food might well have something to do with it. Finding myself agitated because there was no implication of vaccinations on either of our parts - only that mercury predates vaccines, obviously, and therefore may have something to do with it. The study also mentioned reactions to vaccinations, not the vaccines themselves, as I read it - it did not seem to imply that the vaccine was at fault but that there was a reaction to the vaccination that was in common. This is based on what I have read, which is not complete, of the articles... if I am wrong, please correct me, but some of your points seem to come from an assumptive POV. Welcome further discussion, not intended in offense/aggressive tone.



I'm not sure what the intent is here; Down's syndrome is something different with its own issues, and in combination with being on the spectrum would certainly provide a greater challenge. It is not surprising that those with both have more obstacles with language... DS is a chromosomal disorder that often results in lower than average cognitive function, as I understand it. Again - I am at a total loss trying to understand what is the point here. Am confused, sorry.


M.

Again, google codex alimentarius. You'll have to sort through the conspiracy BS (which there's a lot of) and get the actual info but then you'll see why.

Plus, things like 'the Constant Gardener' in Africa... knowingly testing vaccines and drugs on populations who don't know what the drugs are for, who are lied to about what they're being given, are forced to take them, etc. Often with some pretty horrific consequences. Which the WHO are well aware of, if not complicit in.


MissPickWickian, I'm studying for a degree in naturopathic medicine - I know what the diseases are, what they can do, and what they look like.

The point isn't that DS+autism speech acquisition is later, but that regression is later, too. If regression were associated with vaccines, then the DS+Autism kids would regress at the same time as the kids with just autism do--but they don't. They regress at when they've gained about the same amount of skills as the kids without DS have when they regress. It seems to associate with a certain stage of progress--maybe regressive autism means you can only sustain so many skills at once, after which the skills themselves take too much to sustain, and you start to lose them.

BTW--we know mercury damages the body. We don't have any evidence that mercury exposure causes autism, specifically. The original study had a sample size so small as to be ludicrous (twelve, I think)...

We're at cross-purposes, as whenever 'mercury' is mentioned it seems to be read as 'vaccines'... *frustration* One cannot assume that, in conjunction with another syndrome/condition, that the performance standards will not be affected. Perhaps it is a structural issue when a certain level of performance is needed that the regression occurs; possible that the cognitive impairment delays the recognition of certain problems for the individual. If we go back to mercury, instead of vaccines, then we must acknowledge that exposure could happen at any time, and therefore is not helpful measure in the indication of symptom onset. From what I understand and have read, there is a definite genetic root to ASDs, a strong base component of the condition, and I would agree with that from anecdotal information and observation. Mercury could be a catalytic agent that brings out the expression of those genes, could cause damage that mimics the condition, any of a number of things. The militant response baffles me; I don't blame mercury, but find it foolish to dismiss it.

Again... there are some who are discussing mercury in broad form, not solely in vaccines. Perhaps there is a liver impairment, and that is why mercury appears to be involved. But it is equally sensational and closed-minded to dismiss it out of hand as it is to claim vaccines as the legitimate, known and sole cause of all spectrum conditions. Really at a loss for words.


M.

I can only speak for myself.

I know I was born this way. There were no "regressions" or sudden changes in my personality during my early childhood. As soon as I could talk, I was talking about my obsessions and was not social or emotionally expressive. My parents went to great lengths to teach me to interact with my peers, and to identify and express emotions. I was also very clumsy - my parents did a lot to help me with that too, especially after I was diagnosed with hypotonia (which I no longer have).

I have observed that most of my relatives have AS traits. The degrees of expression of these traits vary, but it's always enough to make the individual stand out as different. A few relatives, including my mother, would most likely qualify for a diagnosis. I have even suggested to my mother that she might be "on the autistic spectrum," and she agreed.

So I believe that in my case, AS is genetic. And it turns out that this is consistent with current research on the causes of ASD's. There is thought to be a strong genetic component.

We aren't talking about the majority of us who were born with it, though, and didn't 'regress'....

*sigh*

Makuranososhi, it's very hard to discuss this rationally on this site, isn't it? You're either an idiot, hysterical, stupid, or some combination of all three.

It is a sensitive subject... it is not the worst climate I've experienced however, by a long shot. Feel like I need to make a list of my thoughts...

I feel ASDs are of primarily genetic origin.
This genetic factor can be influenced by external factors.
ASDs do appear to run in families.
One possible trigger mechanism may be mercury, based on some limited studies. This is not fact.
Mercury occurs naturally in soil and water, and is used in a number of modern devices, increasing likelihood of exposure.
Fish are found to have ever increasing amount of mercury in them as the result of pollution, in amount far exceeding vaccine levels.
Mercury does not cause ASDs.
I will allow for the possibility that mercury may influence preexisting conditions regarding ASD expression.
I will allow for an ASD-like condition being created by mercury exposure, although there is no indication of it at this time.
Regression can occur frequently, depending which form of ASD is present. Regression is not always permanent.

I'd like to have a discussion, not a platform war... if not here, perhaps in another thread.


M.

The point is that people with DS learn language later than non-DS people in general, so they lose it later when they're also autistic.

Non-DS people learn language earlier, and if they're autistic they lose it earlier.

Vaccines are often blamed when autistic people lose language, because they happen at the same age as non-DS autistic people typically lose language.

But the study on "regressive" autistic people with and without DS, suggests that the timing of language loss is related to the timing of language gain. And not to an outside factor at all. Which very much dis-implicates things like vaccines in causing 'regressive' autism.