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New research brings autism screening closer to reality

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Kangoogle
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11 Jan 2009, 11:31 pm

garyww wrote:
My IQ is 80 so I can understand and I do believe that the majority of people who are autistic do not feel as thought they lead a life of misery at least not any I have meet or worked with. Just becasue you have a low IQ does mean you cannot understand what people are saying to you or express your own ideas in whatever manner you can best adapt to your particular situation.

Many people on the spectrum have understated IQ's for various reasons - its hardly the case with Downs. The 70 figure I was referring too was someone who is pretty bright for Down's too. Also IQ is not a linear scale, far from it - its measured relatively against the population. Here is a page which explains a little more (unless you are of a mathematical background I am going to struggle on the explanation front really - but someone else might be able to explain better)
http://wilderdom.com/intelligence/IQWhatScoresMean.html



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11 Jan 2009, 11:33 pm

An IQ test only measures ability or potential. Acheivement test are used to determine reading, math and other skills so a low IQ is no more a detriment than a high IQ is a benefit as far as being an indicator of a persons 'worth' to society otherwise we should get rid of savants who have IQ's below 70.


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11 Jan 2009, 11:34 pm

Ticker wrote:
Anyone notice how they aren't busy creating a test to detect Aspergers in people who are already born? That's because there is no money in diagnosing more and more people because that's more people society might have to provide services to.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: AMEN, sister!

Ticker wrote:
I really don't care though because my life sucks because of the Aspergers. I'd let myself be aborted now if it was possible. If they start executing born Aspies I'll be the first to stand in line okay guys.


I don't know if it's the Asperger's that makes my life suck but suck it does. Add encroaching old age to that and I am ready to check out anytime, myself!

Merle



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11 Jan 2009, 11:40 pm

garyww wrote:
An IQ test only measures ability or potential. Acheivement test are used to determine reading, math and other skills so a low IQ is no more a detriment than a high IQ is a benefit as far as being an indicator of a persons 'worth' to society otherwise we should get rid of savants who have IQ's below 70.

I agree totally here - but this is NT logic not my own. Bear in mind though really I am trying to make the case that we have plenty of people who can do something about this, where as with Down's it is very difficult to find those who can.



undefineable
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11 Jan 2009, 11:47 pm

Orwell wrote:
So you really don't see how sanctioning genocide against a given group would promote a perception that members of that group are inferior?


We are 'inferior' if you like, in the sense of having less structured multi-layered processes going on in our heads than NTs do; only ego gets in the way of our happy accepance of that fact. NTs who come across us already see us as inferior in the same way, based on what they see with their own intuiton.

Orwell wrote:
And you don't think that has anything to do with your critical thinking skills?


We're both right in a sense, but our conclusions should be based purely on empathy, as we're judging an empathic claim.

By the way, I've spent so much of my life critically thinking that I wish I'd had fewer skills with which to do so :?

Orwell wrote:
It is my turn to :roll: now


You're welcome - I love playing at being patronising etc. online, though I don't allow myself to be IRL!

Still on a patronising note, it's 'kettle of fish', not 'cattle of fish' 8) {And by the way, people do sometimes explain things clearly to DSers}



Last edited by undefineable on 11 Jan 2009, 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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11 Jan 2009, 11:47 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
I think some of us might be overestimating our contribution to "progress."

I'm not convinced that all that many scientists, artists, and musicians are aspies or otherwise autistic.


I have to agree. I hear lots of Aspies trying to make themselves feel good, as if they belong to some really cool group, by claiming this or that celebrity or genius scientist has Aspergers. Or that Silicon Valley is nothing but Aspies. But truth is we don't know that. If Silicon is run by Aspies then its undiagnosed Aspies.

I hear people at Autism meetings proclaiming how much we contribute to society, but how can anyone be so ridiculous to proclaim that when only 7% of adult Aspies ever hold down a job? Few of us are out in the garage building rocket ships either. Most are glued to their video game or else glued to the computer on Wrong Planet while living with their parents. I really don't know of any Aspie who is that successful or who has contributed a darn thing to society, myself included. To be honest we are a huge drain to the system. If 7% of us are working, that means 93% are on public assistance. By numbers alone that suggests we really don't contribute enough to society for it to be a loss if we all ceased to exist. Of that 7% less than 1% are even scientists or inventors.



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11 Jan 2009, 11:51 pm

undefineable wrote:
But in the end, if the majority would prefer not to have autistics brought into the world - even at the expense of technological progress - then that's what's right for them. Better than forcing millions more to endure the suffering that comes from not being integrated into a society.

I'm sorry to fulfill Godwin's Law, but this same reasoning would allow the Holocaust if the majority thought it was acceptable (and the majority did).


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11 Jan 2009, 11:52 pm

Ticker wrote:
CanyonWind wrote:
I think some of us might be overestimating our contribution to "progress."

I'm not convinced that all that many scientists, artists, and musicians are aspies or otherwise autistic.


I have to agree. I hear lots of Aspies trying to make themselves feel good, as if they belong to some really cool group, by claiming this or that celebrity or genius scientist has Aspergers. Or that Silicon Valley is nothing but Aspies. But truth is we don't know that. If Silicon is run by Aspies then its undiagnosed Aspies.

I hear people at Autism meetings proclaiming how much we contribute to society, but how can anyone be so ridiculous to proclaim that when only 7% of adult Aspies ever hold down a job? Few of us are out in the garage building rocket ships either. Most are glued to their video game or else glued to the computer on Wrong Planet while living with their parents. I really don't know of any Aspie who is that successful or who has contributed a darn thing to society, myself included. To be honest we are a huge drain to the system. If 7% of us are working, that means 93% are on public assistance. By numbers alone that suggests we really don't contribute enough to society for it to be a loss if we all ceased to exist. Of that 7% less than 1% are even scientists or inventors.


I guess the fact that I am studying computer science, and plan to be a business owner sorta bucks the system a bit then? I will be the successsful one simply because I will it. I am determined to make a diffference in the world that will hhave people remembering me for years to come.



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11 Jan 2009, 11:53 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
Depends who you are talking to - I prefer the term "strong" meritocracy and believe that most of the way there is far from utopic.


Alright, but I think you're being a pedant ninny for trying to correct me on whatever you think it is.

Meritocracy is a power structure where people are judged on their merits, their credibility and their talent.



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11 Jan 2009, 11:55 pm

undefineable wrote:
We are 'inferior' if you like, in the sense of having less structured multi-layered processes going on in our heads than NTs do; only ego gets in the way of our happy accepance of that fact. NTs who come across us already see us as inferior in the same way, based on what they see with their own intuiton.

Only ego and a slew of scientific studies demonstrating that Aspies do indeed surpass NTs in a number of areas. Look, undefinable, your opinion contradicts that of the vast majority of researchers (both ASD and NT) in the field, and I would be inclined to believe them over you.


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11 Jan 2009, 11:56 pm

Ticker wrote:
... how can anyone be so ridiculous to proclaim that when only 7% of adult Aspies ever hold down a job?...


Is it really 7%?



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11 Jan 2009, 11:57 pm

undefineable wrote:
Orwell wrote:
So you really don't see how sanctioning genocide against a given group would promote a perception that members of that group are inferior?


We are 'inferior' if you like, in the sense of having less structured processes going on in our heads than NTs do; only ego gets in the way of our happy accepance of that fact. NTs who come across us already see us as inferior in the same way, based on what they see with their own intuiton.

No - we have a different structure of processes in our heads. Reality gets in the way of accepting your "facts", have the NT's taught you the roll over command good and proper...?
Quote:
Orwell wrote:
And you don't think that has anything to do with your critical thinking skills?


We're both right in a sense, but our conclusions should be based purely on empathy, as we're judging an empathic claim.

No, it is a matter of logic and we need pragmatism.
Quote:
By the way, I've spent so much of my life critically thinking that I wish I'd had fewer skills with which to do so :?

Because deep down you know how wrong the world currently is?
Quote:
Orwell wrote:
It is my turn to :roll: now


You're welcome - I love playing at being patronising etc. online, though I don't allow myself to be IRL!

Still on a patronising note, it's 'kettle of fish', not 'cattle of fish' 8) {And by the way, people do sometimes explain things clearly to DSers}

Yes - like how to make tea. Not how to mount a complex political campaign.



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11 Jan 2009, 11:59 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

Ticker wrote:
I really don't care though because my life sucks because of the Aspergers. I'd let myself be aborted now if it was possible. If they start executing born Aspies I'll be the first to stand in line okay guys.


I don't know if it's the Asperger's that makes my life suck but suck it does. Add encroaching old age to that and I am ready to check out anytime, myself!

Merle


Hey you stay back in your spot in the line. I'm first to go! If it will make any of you pro-lifers happy I'll sacrifice my bored silly, lonely, worthless self :rambo: so that some Aspergers embryo may live and survive the genocide.



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11 Jan 2009, 11:59 pm

Xelebes wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
Depends who you are talking to - I prefer the term "strong" meritocracy and believe that most of the way there is far from utopic.


Alright, but I think you're being a pedant ninny for trying to correct me on whatever you think it is.

Meritocracy is a power structure where people are judged on their merits, their credibility and their talent.

Not at all - it goes beyond judging people. A proper meritocracy is about setting up an equal opportunities system, right from birth. Basically in essence it stops people buying or by other means any form of advantage. The only way one can succeed is by (a) being more intelligent and (b) by using it.



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12 Jan 2009, 12:03 am

Ticker wrote:
CanyonWind wrote:
I think some of us might be overestimating our contribution to "progress."

I'm not convinced that all that many scientists, artists, and musicians are aspies or otherwise autistic.


I have to agree. I hear lots of Aspies trying to make themselves feel good, as if they belong to some really cool group, by claiming this or that celebrity or genius scientist has Aspergers. Or that Silicon Valley is nothing but Aspies. But truth is we don't know that. If Silicon is run by Aspies then its undiagnosed Aspies.

I hear people at Autism meetings proclaiming how much we contribute to society, but how can anyone be so ridiculous to proclaim that when only 7% of adult Aspies ever hold down a job? Few of us are out in the garage building rocket ships either. Most are glued to their video game or else glued to the computer on Wrong Planet while living with their parents. I really don't know of any Aspie who is that successful or who has contributed a darn thing to society, myself included. To be honest we are a huge drain to the system. If 7% of us are working, that means 93% are on public assistance. By numbers alone that suggests we really don't contribute enough to society for it to be a loss if we all ceased to exist. Of that 7% less than 1% are even scientists or inventors.

There is an obvious explanation - to get diagnosed with Aspergers in most cases you have to be in some sort of life mess. Someone who has held down a job who has it is far less likely to get Diagnosed. Expect the employment rate to climb in the next few years as those who have been diagnosed whilst young start to go through the system.



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12 Jan 2009, 12:07 am

Ticker wrote:
... how can anyone be so ridiculous to proclaim that when only 7% of adult Aspies ever hold down a job?...

Source?

There is very little reliable epidemiological information on Asperger's, especially in the adult population, and I'm sure I could find plenty of errors in whatever report you're referring to that found that. Of the 5 definite Aspies I know personally (including myself) 3 of us will definitely not have difficulty getting jobs, and the other 2 will probably get jobs but need more help in getting them. And that sample is itself skewed by only including the more obvious cases of Asperger's; there are several other employable people about whom I have my suspicions.


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