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See OP.
AS 44%  44%  [ 20 ]
NT 56%  56%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 45

Demon-Chorus
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03 Jul 2009, 3:39 pm

Alba wrote:
Agreed.
So tell me this....... What do you suggest for eliminating discrimination and persecution against aspies and auties? How do you propose we get up off the ground when we are so few and they are so many? What precisely are the effective strategies and techniques we arm ourselves with?


Well resorting to Macheviellian, hate my enemy and adopt his strategies isn't going to work. Here I'll give my thoughts.

1: Reject the "mask": Be yourself, be honest even if it's blunt honesty, accept when you're wrong but don't assume you're wrong through someone's "word wizardry" or "pack acceptance".
2: Education: Learn about people, learn about psychology in general, learn about proper debating tactics which doesn't resort to "Word Wizardry" ie. Deceptive BSry and logical fallacies
3: Hold everyone including yourself to the same moral/honourable/lawful standards, this means calling people on their BS, there are times to be nice but there are times when nice doesn't cut it and you have to be blunt, call injustice by it's name.

Alba wrote:
When a million thoughtless NTs are standing on you, breaking your back and smashing your spirit


This is why I call the social plauge by it's name, some of these NTs are infected with the social plauge (having the wool pulled over their eyes, or are simply to cowardly to fight it), others are pretenders called sociopaths. The real NTs will acknowledge when they are being morons, the sociopaths will not, sociopaths are pathological imbecils and liars.

Alba wrote:
Who's going to use a crowbar to pry them off so we can get up off the ground and walk upright with dignity and respect like the rest of the humans?


Knowledge is power, learn as much as you can, compare and contrast differing takes and logically delete the false data (fallacious data, out-right lies, double-negatives through ignorance) and come to a conclusion that seems correct, think outside the box. You have to arm yourself with the "sword", I can only give you some of the "materials" for this weapon because I don't have all the answers, I'm only human, we have to work together to find all the materials to come to the ultimate conclusion.

Alba wrote:
Do you think the gays were justified in demanding their rights?


Yes I do think they were justified and there anger was justified as well.

Alba wrote:
Where do you draw the line between hatred of oppression and hatred of the oppressor?


The oppressor isn't who you think it is though, the colour-blind wolves sheepishly follow the mad wolf despite he leads them to destruction. Waking up the colour-blind and turning our attention to the mad one is the key.

Alba wrote:
And what of the blacks who fought so hard against discrimination and segregation? Do you think they were mad? Hell yes they were mad!! ! You bet.


I'm not disapproving of your anger at injustice, I have the same anger, but you need to arm yourself with knowledge and tactics and wake up the "herd" who are actually good people on the inside, while destroying the clowns who pose.

Alba wrote:
Surely you can't be advocating a continuance of cowering in fear and seclusion? Or totally giving up?


Never! I just don't advocate Macheviellistic tactics of adopting the traits of your enemy and seeing your enemy as "pure evil". I advocate pro-social measures of fairness and forcing them upon those who cheat, we need to call cheaters by their names, I'm actually advocating not taking crap from cheaters.

Alba wrote:
How can you expect any less from us?


I don't advocate violent revolution, blacks and gays did not revolt through violence but rather pro-social activism.


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03 Jul 2009, 3:53 pm

That's exactly my approach too. No revolution, no hatred, just gradual enlightenment, change of consciousness in the masses. It hasn't helped me one bit, though.


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03 Jul 2009, 4:02 pm

GreenTea wrote:
That's exactly my approach too. No revolution, no hatred, just gradual enlightenment, change of consciousness in the masses. It hasn't helped me one bit, though.


It'll help, give it time. It worked for blacks, women and the GLBT community so I'm sure it'll work for us as well. We just need to band together, learn as much as we can and take a no BS stance, call the cheaters by their names. The more you know the stupider they look, they can't destroy social change they can impede it but in the end humanity always triumphs.


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03 Jul 2009, 4:07 pm

I couldn't agree more.

But I'm double your age, so I won't live to see it.

I'd give anything to live in a time when Aspies weren't fired as worthless after giving their all to the company and having so many work skills. We're in the Brokeback Mountain era of AS and it's very painful for us who can't take comfort in the hope for the future.


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03 Jul 2009, 5:07 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
Greentea wrote:
That's exactly my approach too. No revolution, no hatred, just gradual enlightenment, change of consciousness in the masses. It hasn't helped me one bit, though.

It'll help, give it time. It worked for blacks, women and the GLBT community so I'm sure it'll work for us as well. We just need to band together, learn as much as we can and take a no BS stance, call the cheaters by their names. The more you know the stupider they look, they can't destroy social change they can impede it but in the end humanity always triumphs.

We've been fighting against this all our lives...Not much has changed. You say to be patient, but I don't think whatever we've done so far has worked in the slightest. In fact--correct me if I'm wrong--whatever we've been doing is a dismal failure.
We do need to band together. Until someone with leadership potential takes the reins, we're not doing real well with that. We need a leader.......Just who are these cheaters anyway and can you identify them? or give a better description of who we should be looking for?


Your thoughtful comprehensive reply to my rant and inquiries is more than I expected. Not sure I can respond in kind, but willing to give it my best shot.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
1: Reject the "mask": Be yourself, be honest even if it's blunt honesty, accept when you're wrong but don't assume you're wrong through someone's "word wizardry" or "pack acceptance".
2: Education: Learn about people, learn about psychology in general, learn about proper debating tactics which doesn't resort to "Word Wizardry" ie. Deceptive BSry and logical fallacies
3: Hold everyone including yourself to the same moral/honourable/lawful standards, this means calling people on their BS, there are times to be nice but there are times when nice doesn't cut it and you have to be blunt, call injustice by it's name.
So you are advocating integrity and no false personas for the sake of "fitting in" or keeping one's job?? Greentea and I have been through that with me advocating your position. It isn't practical. It doesn't help us survive. Great idea though. The problem, as I see it, is that we need integrity PLUS accommodation. Now you figure out a way to get that accommodation and a bunch of us will follow in your wake. Number 3: Specifically how is this accomplished, other than making comments on the WP boards?

Quote:
This is why I call the social plauge by it's name, some of these NTs are infected with the social plauge (having the wool pulled over their eyes, or are simply to cowardly to fight it), others are pretenders called sociopaths. The real NTs will acknowledge when they are being morons, the sociopaths will not, sociopaths are pathological imbecils and liars.

um....okay.......but how does this help us get our fair share of the economic pie?

Quote:
Knowledge is power, learn as much as you can, compare and contrast differing takes and logically delete the false data (fallacious data, out-right lies, double-negatives through ignorance) and come to a conclusion that seems correct, think outside the box. You have to arm yourself with the "sword", I can only give you some of the "materials" for this weapon because I don't have all the answers, I'm only human, we have to work together to find all the materials to come to the ultimate conclusion.

Working together is good. Lot of us say that. How do we do it, again, other than posting to WP boards?

Demon-Chorus wrote:
Alba wrote:
Do you think the gays were justified in demanding their rights?


Yes I do think they were justified and there anger was justified as well.
So anger is justified; hatred is not? Do you think aspies and auties are capable of limiting and modifying their meltdowns and other extreme reactions to being treated with contempt, disdain and torment? Given all our neurological complications and the horrendous way we've been treated all our lives----are we not entitled to our meltdowns? Drugging us into compliance and conformity is not the answer. Neither is forcing us to take "the cure" which will be a fraud if it is ever forced on us.

Quote:
The oppressor isn't who you think it is though, the colour-blind wolves sheepishly follow the mad wolf despite he leads them to destruction. Waking up the colour-blind and turning our attention to the mad one is the key.
Ah...waking the masses up. Something aspies and auties can easily accomplish when no one else has been able to do squat. Not very feasible.
Quote:
I'm not disapproving of your anger at injustice, I have the same anger, but you need to arm yourself with knowledge and tactics and wake up the "herd" who are actually good people on the inside, while destroying the clowns who pose.
By clowns are you referring to our elected leaders perchance?

Quote:
I advocate pro-social measures of fairness and forcing them upon those who cheat, we need to call cheaters by their names, I'm actually advocating not taking crap from cheaters.
How about a new thread on that topic?

Quote:
I don't advocate violent revolution, blacks and gays did not revolt through violence but rather pro-social activism.
Again, I don't think aspies and auties are capable of the executive function and organizational skills required to bring about a revolution. But I do think we are entitled to feeling our feelings and using our anger to advantage rather than to simply meltdown and retreat.
What do you mean by "pro-social" activism? If what you mean by "pro-social" is litigation---I'm all for that.



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03 Jul 2009, 5:42 pm

Alba wrote:
You say to be patient, but I don't think whatever we've done so far has worked in the slightest. In fact--correct me if I'm wrong--whatever we've been doing is a dismal failure.


I don't think that, there has been some slight advances towards acceptance, but they aren't huge, but you can't expect a huge radical change over night.

Alba wrote:
We do need to band together. Until someone with leadership potential takes the reins, we're not doing real well with that. We need a leader


What about Alex and the other autistic activists? Are they not leaders? I myself have issues with becoming a leader, what about you? Could you take the reins?

alba]Just who are these cheaters anyway and can you identify them?[/quote]

The cheaters are the ones who set up phony "social-rules", rules they don't abide by, haven't you ever heard the phrase "It's all a game"? The cheaters are the deceptive BSers, the ones who play "mind games".

[quote="alba wrote:
So you are advocating integrity and no false personas for the sake of "fitting in" or keeping one's job??


I'm advocating that as social activism, you can be yourself and not cheat by forcing the standards the hypocrites put on you but not themselves on them too.

alba wrote:
It doesn't help us survive.


Survival and betraying your soul (to your cause), is it worth it?

alba wrote:
The problem, as I see it, is that we need integrity PLUS accommodation.


I have no answer to this at this moment, if I think of something I will let you know.

alba]Number 3: Specifically how is this accomplished, other than making comments on the WP boards? [/quote]

How is this accomplished, apply it to the real world.

[quote="alba wrote:
um....okay.......but how does this help us get our fair share of the economic pie?


I don't know, but it sure will provoke thought and consideration in the good.

alba wrote:
Working together is good. Lot of us say that. How do we do it, again, other than posting to WP boards?


Socio-Political rallies and clubs like any other cause, the civil rights movement did it and the other human rights movements did it.

alba wrote:
So anger is justified; hatred is not? Do you think aspies and auties are capable of limiting and modifying their meltdowns and other extreme reactions to being treated with contempt, disdain and torment? Given all our neurological complications and the horrendous way we've been treated all our lives----are we not entitled to our meltdowns?


If you're too blind with rage to think straight it's a problem that opponets will take advantage of.

Alba wrote:
Drugging us into compliance and conformity is not the answer.


Psychiatric medication isn't a form of "thought police", it just affects your mood, and I didn't say anything about "drugging" you up. I'm just saying chill down so you can think straight, manic-depressive anger isn't thinking straight, it makes one prone to acting out, I know this by experience.

Alba wrote:
Ah...waking the masses up. Something aspies and auties can easily accomplish when no one else has been able to do squat. Not very feasible.


The civil rights movements did it partially, so why not?

Alba wrote:
By clowns are you referring to our elected leaders perchance?


Clowns refers to the pathologically idiotic and self-serving, both political leaders and other.

Alba wrote:
How about a new thread on that topic?


Ok.

Alba wrote:
Again, I don't think aspies and auties are capable of the executive function and organizational skills required to bring about a revolution.


If you don't try you'll never know.

Alba wrote:
What do you mean by "pro-social" activism? If what you mean by "pro-social" is litigation---I'm all for that.


I mean legal activism.


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03 Jul 2009, 6:48 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
alba wrote:
It doesn't help us survive.


Survival and betraying your soul (to your cause), is it worth it?

No. You have to be true to yourself. But when being true to yourself is pitted against your desire to survive in a reasonably acceptable way....which do you choose? I'm squeeking by and not very fond of life on this planet as an aspie. A lot of good aspies and auties have committed suicide because their precious lives became not worth living, according to their actions and experience. If we can't survive with integrity and we can't survive without integrity---where does that leave us? We're backed into a corner and for way too many of us---there's no point.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
alba wrote:
Working together is good. Lot of us say that. How do we do it, again, other than posting to WP boards?


Socio-Political rallies and clubs like any other cause, the civil rights movement did it and the other human rights movements did it.

Now we're getting somewhere. Researching autism activism is a neglected project of mine. I never seem to have any motivation for doing it. How about you? The socio-political rally is a wonderful idea.

Quote:
If you're too blind with rage to think straight it's a problem that opponets will take advantage of.
Ah-so. But remember we're aspies and auties. If we're not allowed to be who we are, we're prisoners in our own society. Most of us are regarded as mentally deficient, or too deviant, or too different to be worth accommodation. Therefore, because our needs aren't met, we can barely survive. Now you want people who can barely survive and are having a truckload of sensory issues to boot-- to be pleasant and patient and reasonable? I don't think so. We need a whole lot more than we're being given for society-at-large to see the improvement they say they want. We need to be treated as human beings, not as guinea pigs, or worse.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
Alba wrote:
Ah...waking the masses up. Something aspies and auties can easily accomplish when no one else has been able to do squat. Not very feasible.


The civil rights movements did it partially, so why not?

How exactly did they accomplish this? Remember blacks and gays are not neurological aliens. They're not disabled. Our best hope, IMO, is to connect up with the rest of the disabled community and push for accommodation.

Demon-Chorus wrote:
Alba wrote:
What do you mean by "pro-social" activism? If what you mean by "pro-social" is litigation---I'm all for that.


I mean legal activism.


Agreed. These are some of the best tools at our disposal:
1. Legal activism/research
2. Connecting up with the rest of the disabled community/research
3. Autistic political rallies/someone or some group has to organize them

What do you think?



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03 Jul 2009, 8:23 pm

Alba wrote:
No. You have to be true to yourself. But when being true to yourself is pitted against your desire to survive in a reasonably acceptable way....which do you choose? I'm squeeking by and not very fond of life on this planet as an aspie. A lot of good aspies and auties have committed suicide because their precious lives became not worth living, according to their actions and experience. If we can't survive with integrity and we can't survive without integrity---where does that leave us? We're backed into a corner and for way too many of us---there's no point.


I agree, something should be done.

Alba wrote:
Now we're getting somewhere. Researching autism activism is a neglected project of mine. I never seem to have any motivation for doing it. How about you? The socio-political rally is a wonderful idea.


I'm up to it, right now I have alot of time on my hands so what better way to use that time than to use it pro-actively.

Alba]Ah-so. But remember we're aspies and auties. If we're not allowed to be who we are, we're prisoners in our own society. Most of us are regarded as mentally deficient, or too deviant, or too different to be worth accommodation. Therefore, because our needs aren't met, we can barely survive. Now you want people who can barely survive and are having a truckload of sensory issues to boot-- to be pleasant and patient and reasonable? I don't think so. We need a whole lot more than we're being given for society-at-large to see the improvement they say they want. We need to be treated as human beings, not as guinea pigs, or worse. [/quote]

I agree, I also think by helping this cause we may help NTs form a better understanding of not only us, we may also erase some of the primitive social-hierarchies and fake "social" rules that are in one-sided in favor of the bigger BSer. Basically freedom for Aspies/Auties and the disabled has the by-product of freedom for NTs to be themselves as well.

[quote="Alba wrote:
How exactly did they accomplish this? Remember blacks and gays are not neurological aliens. They're not disabled. Our best hope, IMO, is to connect up with the rest of the disabled community and push for accommodation.


That's a good idea.

Alba wrote:
Agreed. These are some of the best tools at our disposal:
1. Legal activism/research
2. Connecting up with the rest of the disabled community/research
3. Autistic political rallies/someone or some group has to organize them

What do you think?


I think it's great as I said in the activism topic, you put it in better more professional termanology than I could.


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03 Jul 2009, 9:02 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
Alba wrote:
Ah-so. But remember we're aspies and auties. If we're not allowed to be who we are, we're prisoners in our own society. Most of us are regarded as mentally deficient, or too deviant, or too different to be worth accommodation. Therefore, because our needs aren't met, we can barely survive. Now you want people who can barely survive and are having a truckload of sensory issues to boot-- to be pleasant and patient and reasonable? I don't think so. We need a whole lot more than we're being given for society-at-large to see the improvement they say they want. We need to be treated as human beings, not as guinea pigs, or worse.


I agree, I also think by helping this cause we may help NTs form a better understanding of not only us, we may also erase some of the primitive social-hierarchies and fake "social" rules that are in one-sided in favor of the bigger BSer. Basically freedom for Aspies/Auties and the disabled has the by-product of freedom for NTs to be themselves as well.

Good point DC.
But I think those of us on the spectrum need to concentrate on helping ourselves. Whatever benefit NTs get out of a potential autism rights victory-- is icing on the cake.



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04 Jul 2009, 4:58 am

What, in that itisn't the icing you eat the cake for, but it sure makes it look good?

Why can't we just sue the people who call it a disease, and accuse us of lacking emotion, empathy, ToM... I've still got to correct my 'Statement of Speical Needs'. It may have applied then - I can't really rememebr, but I don't think some of it did - but it doesn't now.

I can speak angrily when I want to, or when I can't suppress it any longer. Maybe I could use that...?


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04 Jul 2009, 5:03 am

Whoever posted the original hateful post needs to pull their head outta their rear end and wake up. Not all NTs are bad.There are a few who are bullies, a few who don't understand and aren't aware of AS, then there are those that are kind and understanding.There are NTs who I like and care about and who care about me, then there are those who have made my life hell.I judge people individually based on how they treat me and judge me.You can't paint a whole group with one brush.


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04 Jul 2009, 7:00 am

Magneto wrote:
What, in that itisn't the icing you eat the cake for, but it sure makes it look good?

Why can't we just sue the people who call it a disease, and accuse us of lacking emotion, empathy, ToM... I've still got to correct my 'Statement of Speical Needs'. It may have applied then - I can't really rememebr, but I don't think some of it did - but it doesn't now.

I can speak angrily when I want to, or when I can't suppress it any longer. Maybe I could use that...?


What if you actually won your suit? What if you succeeded in getting it taken out of the DSM and made it illegal- or at least inadvisable based on your court win- for anybody to come up with any theories about it? What would you have accomplished?

This is what I think you would accomplish. You would set legal precedent for accomodations to be yanked from every AS person who currently has them. Currently, I suspect that all the AS people who have them are children getting accomodations in school- which would be yanked. I can understand a desire to fight for redress and/or accomodations in the workplace. If you won this suit, you would put a mighty huge roadblock in front of that happening. Any fight AS person is currently making for accomodations in the workplace or to redress getting fired would come to a dead halt. And your suit would be used as a legal precedent by the employers.



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04 Jul 2009, 8:46 am

Alba wrote:
Good point DC.
But I think those of us on the spectrum need to concentrate on helping ourselves. Whatever benefit NTs get out of a potential autism rights victory-- is icing on the cake.


Yep, it's a by-product of us helping ourselves. The destruction of the social construct known as "the mask" and "false-self" need to be destroyed, because as you said if we can't be ourselves we live in hell.


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04 Jul 2009, 12:08 pm

ignisfatuus wrote:
I'm not sure what all this hand wringing is lately around harmonious relations. The world doesn't work like that. I will try to fit in in order to deflect negative attention, but I will hate them every minute of the day for having to do so. That's not a blanket dislike either, as I have met understanding and caring individuals. They're just very rare. As for the rest, they could burn before my eyes and I wouldn't so much as blink.


If you feel the need to mask who you are to fit into a group, then that's your bad. I only associate with people who are understanding of who I am. The list is very short, but I wouldn't trade it for all the people in the world. I'm a lot happier than those that I see that are constantly trying to be accepted by everyone, even if that means being accepted for being someone they're not.

MONKEY wrote:
I saw the post, it's about NTs. I'm really getting pissed off with some people on this site claiming that NTs are inferior, or that they are bad people etc, I think it's hypocritical to whinge and moan about the NTs not getting us and being ignorant and hating us, when some of you guys are doing the same thing to them. There are NTs that I like, there are some I don't like, and there are also AS peeps who I like and don't like. We are just as capable of being annoying arseholes as they are, no one is superior or inferior. Anyway there is no real obvious divide between aspies and NTs, it's a continium, which makes the us vs them crap even more pointless.

Why can't we all just get on maaaan, :flower:


Well, I have for much of my life thought of myself as superior to the average NT. I'm quicker to grasp anything that requires more than a second of thought than most any NT I know, and I also find myself caring more about the quality of other people's lives. I haven't met enough autistics to say whether or not the average autistic is superior to the average NT, though.

One of the main themes of this thread seems to be the anti-aspie nation argument. One of the arguments towards giving Israel to Jewish control was that it was unhealthy, mentally and sociologically, for Jews to be a minority everywhere they went. I think that the same is true for autistics. I think that a small community (not necessarily an aspie nation, but more a small town or city) where autistics were the majority would be helpful not only to our own psyche, but also to show the world that we're not helpless, and it's less our own difficulties, and more the difficulties that are placed upon us that hold us back.


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04 Jul 2009, 2:53 pm

MrLoony wrote:
One of the main themes of this thread seems to be the anti-aspie nation argument. One of the arguments towards giving Israel to Jewish control was that it was unhealthy, mentally and sociologically, for Jews to be a minority everywhere they went. I think that the same is true for autistics. I think that a small community (not necessarily an aspie nation, but more a small town or city) where autistics were the majority would be helpful not only to our own psyche, but also to show the world that we're not helpless, and it's less our own difficulties, and more the difficulties that are placed upon us that hold us back.

MrLoony,

This is an excellent post, perhaps brilliant. Firstly, comparing an Aspie nation [or town] to the Jewish state of Israel, is one of the best pro arguments amidst a whole slew of con arguments. But you make an even better comment: If aspies/auties were able to form a small town or community and could show the world we're not helpless, that would be quite an amazing accomplishment. And indeed, it would prove a worthwhile point.

Proponents for the Aspie nation or town idea, need to keep turning up these excellent pro arguments, while simultaneously mitigating the con arguments.

For example, a strong con argument is that we are anti-social people attempting to be social, therefore it won't fly. But how about a work-around. How about a half dozen workarounds. For starters: Give each participant/member a quarter acre of land. No one else allowed on their land without the owner's permission. So the obvious con argument following on the heels of that potentially good idea is--where's the land? How do we get the land?

heh....o ye of little faith....remember Kevin Costner's "If you build it, I will come"??......If we show ourselves worthy of making a plan, and have faith, the land will be provided. Initially a core group of people willing to work together needs to form. And they need to decide amongst themselves what they are looking for. There may be offers that could theoretically be turned down due to being unacceptable for such an enterprise.

The secret with this and any endeavor is to think positively and to put a very positive person in charge of the whole enterprise, someone who feels strongly that autism is a gift. For this idea to really take off, an eternal optimist needs to be at the helm. Someone for whom negative ideas and negative thinking just aren't worth bothering with.

heh...that isn't me...but I do know of a WP member who fits that description..