First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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turlough3
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18 May 2013, 2:31 am

Greentea wrote:
Excellent question, Monkey!!


My problem is nt's try to use non verbals and having aspergers doesn't even occur to them. I have huge problems because I can't think of a time when adult aspergers is even addressed. How can I communicate with nt's.



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18 May 2013, 6:00 am

turlough3 wrote:
Greentea wrote:
Excellent question, Monkey!!


My problem is nt's try to use non verbals and having aspergers doesn't even occur to them. I have huge problems because I can't think of a time when adult aspergers is even addressed. How can I communicate with nt's.


There are books that study facial expressions and body language. Those might help decode non verbals.

Most NTs never hear about what Aspergers means, there is a huge lack of education out there about autism and Aspergers (which now the DSM says doesn't even exist, of course I disagree with that.) So if NTs don't know what it means they can't look for signs of it. People have to just tell the people they are closest to. Then maybe get them books about AS or something. I don't think it's necessary to tell everybody though unless you wanted to.



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18 May 2013, 6:40 am

Popsicle wrote:
Greenbeans:

It's very hard to give advice to a stranger by internet while only knowing part of their relationship. Also I would never presume which action to tell someone to take in their relationship (I'm not saying you asked that) whether to stay or go.

I can only say that you must assess your priorities. You must claim what you need for your own sake. It does not sound like he will give you what you ask. You must take it then.

How deep is his own commitment? Does that make a difference to you? It is possible that if he understands the marriage could end due to his stubborn refusal to adapt to your needs, he will adapt to your needs in the end.

However it's possible he will never change his ways, and you will have to adapt to him while he does not expect to ever compromise or adapt to you. A relationship must go in two directions to work unless one is a masochist.

Marriage counselors usually do not understand about AS but there are some good books and websites out there which talk about AS/NT. The stress can cause physical breakdowns which is what some call "cassandra" which most people with AS dislike, but, whatever one calls it, it's a toxic situation.

I wish I had more advice for you than "soul searching" but really it comes down to you and what you choose to live with. If you have other options in life, ask yourself where would you be happiest.


Excellent reply Popsicle!

Greenbeans: This behavior is not unique to NT/AS pairings. It also occurs in NT/NT pairings. I agree that souls searching and assessing what you need is a good route to go. I would also suggest reading up on Jung's Apollo/Cassandra relationship archetype. It helped me not only to understand the dynamics of my own relationships with certain aspies but also my emotionally distant NT mother.



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18 May 2013, 7:21 am

Thank you MarthaBritton.

I googled Apollo Cassandra. Interesting stuff.



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18 May 2013, 12:04 pm

Greenbeans wrote:
My husband is the Aspie in our marriage and it's been a painful experience. Unfortunately, he's in denial. He was diagnosed last year after I pressured him to seek answers, so there is no question there, and he agrees that all the cool traits about Aspergers fit his profile (he even brags about his asperger super powers!), but he doesn't understand that it comes in a package. And he fights me every time I point out where aspergers is getting in the way. The last fight we had was when I told him I needed him to "sympathize". He has no sense of privacy, mine is very high. And it's hard for me to live with that. Anyway, bottom line was I asked him to try to understand how IF something was very important to him but I stomped all over it day in day out, THEN that would make him feel "X" (you feel "X" is his way of carrying on a conversation with me, when he doesn't understand what I may feel). He saidt that he would be infuriated. When I told him that's how I felt +/- about him neglecting my sense of privacy, he replied that it was my problem, my feelings, they were detached from him, he wasn't involved, so he had no reason to feel bad. And when I pointed out that I needed my husband to feel bad when he would see me cry and miserable, just out of love for me or something, I was talking to a wall. So anyone out there has a piece of avice for me? Obviously, it's not about the issue of privacy, it's about the lack of sympathy (I'm not talking about empathy, that's crazy talk) in our marriage. So far, NT-AS marriage has been a very lonely and unfair place to live.


Hi.
Quote:
And he fights me every time I point out where aspergers is getting in the way.


People in general, but especially men do not like this. You are not his therapist or his parent, and it is not your job to fix him. Plus it is very unfeminine. If I were a a guy that kind of talk would to me be a big turn off and make me want to resist even further. Also, the behavior you are describing does not sound necessarily like aspie behavior. It sounds to me like typical guy behavior (not all guys, but a lot). I suggest couple counseling, perhaps, or some kind of program that helps you focus more on yourself, such as Alanon, if you qualify. That is a wonderful program and free.. Also read some relationship books. The John Grey ones are pretty good for helping to understand how men and women think differently, and as I recall he suggests a different way to use language in communicating with a man in which you give your own feelings and express your own wants and needs without coming across as threatening to him..

Hope this helps/



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18 May 2013, 4:01 pm

Thank you for your replies Popsicle, MarthaBritton and Littlebee. Yes, lots of soul searching and bottom lines indeed. I guess I would rather think that there is some neurological explanation for his behavior rather than coming to term with the fact that it is a informed choice of words and actions on his part. Anyway, after some years of putting up with what I personally took as insults, I sort of gave up on getting anywhere past that. The Apollo/Cassandra complex thing is very interesting! And sums up the situation quite well. But I do believe that the mind blindness factor plays a big role in this. And the difference between "I don't care about the consequences of my words" as opposed to "I don't see the effect of my words" is rather large. Mirroring to him what he does to me seems out of this world to him, even when I explain to him that I am merely "returning the favor" as a way to show what it looks and feels like (in the hope that he'll understand thus sympathize with my perspective. I empathize and support him in his challenges on a daily basis, so I like to keep things balanced). Oddly enough, his reaction is more like "how dare you lacking me respect!" I've been around the block enough to see the difference between a man who behaves a certain way because he doesn't feel like putting up with much, and one who literally doesn't see the damage he does to others around him. In order to salvage my sanity, I've simply started standing up for myself, thus creating much more friction, though. But I'm wondering, IF an AS speaks his mind to an NT in what the NT may see as hurtful, is there any chance that he can realize how much pain he's causing by mere fact of explanation from the NT? Or will AS only validate his very own experiences? As for me being stuck in the therapist role, as unwilling as I am, yes, it takes away the role of being a woman, agreed. It's like forcing a role onto me that I never agreed to take on. I married a man, very different from the one I live with. And wether I like it or not, once he was comfortable in the relationship, all the hard work that he had put into "seeming" NT peeled off to only leave the real him at home. I can't blame him. Pretending to be someone you're not is exhausting. I do the same thing by having to pretend that I am his personal assistant, maid, sex toy, mother or therapist. All of which he has +/- explicitely asked of me. I'm just trying to salvage my marriage when me and him are expecting radically different things from one another. I need my husband to feel bad for me when he sees I'm miserable, or cheer for things that I am excited about, regardless of his validation, someone responsible and mature. And as far as I am concerned, I married that guy. I've stayed pretty much who I was when we got married, but I've been filling requests after requests, and due to my own weakness, I let it happen. I don't think NT-AS is impossible to manage, but there has to be something else we can do besides rely on NT's flexibility...Therapists (AS-NT specialized) say, amongst other things, NT have the flexibility of talking logically to reach AS, so this is how NT need to communicate to AS, regardless of how NT are presonally wired. In other words, it's a matter of preferences for NT, as opposed to being a matter of necessity for AS. AS cannot pick up on NT's cues intuitively, so NT just have to give up on that. That's quite the burden on the NT...



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18 May 2013, 6:31 pm

Yes from an NT perspective it does seem the burden is placed all on us to adapt. One could instead say that neither person could help 'who they are' so why is the NT expected to be the only one to compromise?

Lack of compromise could indicate an OCD personality type, which can often be co morbid with AS. (It can be co morbid with NT also, not implying otherwise.)

It sounds to me like you are in an impossible position.

We all hear "all guys are like that" but we know it isn't true. Most of us have dated before and we know the difference. If you read up on Cassandra syndrome you will hear that's a KEY factor in extreme stress - no one seems to get it.

Also, having AS does not absolve him of the responsibility of a marriage partner or romantic partner. It would be the same as if you said "cater to my feelings or get out." You're not saying that - you're saying you need that sometimes. I think that is fair, as it would be if he said he needs his alone time sometimes (for example.)

Sometimes it's crucial in which way a person's personality dovetails with their neurological hard wiring.



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21 May 2013, 9:51 am

Greenbeans wrote:
Therapists (AS-NT specialized) say, amongst other things, NT have the flexibility of talking logically to reach AS, so this is how NT need to communicate to AS, regardless of how NT are presonally wired. In other words, it's a matter of preferences for NT, as opposed to being a matter of necessity for AS. AS cannot pick up on NT's cues intuitively, so NT just have to give up on that. That's quite the burden on the NT...


Imagine it as: Hearing people have the option to communicate by speaking or by using gestures and writing--it's a matter of preferences for the hearing, as opposed to being a matter of neccesity for the deaf. Deaf cannot pick up on communication by telephone, so the hearing just have to give up on that. That's quite the burden on the hearing..

If I CANNOT understand your nonverbal signalling unless it is very broad and obvious, it's really irrational for you to be upset with me for not picking up on subtle signals you have been giving. The burden is only on you if you want to communicate. If you don't want the other party to understand you, go ahead and communicate in a way he can't perceive. But do be self-aware about what you are doing and why.

If the guy is treating you badly--then deal with that. It doesn't really have to do with communication, it has to do with behavior. If you want him to behave differently, you will have to tell him that clearly. If he responds like a jerk, you are probably better off without him. What you cannot rationally do is not tell him what you want and then be pissed off at him for not guessing correctly. He may be largely oblivious to how badly he has been behaving. We can all have pretty big blind spots when they serve our own interests. Tell him your feelings have to do with his behavior and if he can't make the effort to see that, he will have plenty of time to think about it when he is living on his own again. He'll either make the effort for you or not and then you will know what is important to him.



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21 May 2013, 10:51 am

[quote=" Popsicle"Yes from an NT perspective it does seem the burden is placed all on us to adapt. One could instead say that neither person could help 'who they are' so why is the NT expected to be the only one to compromise?

We all hear "all guys are like that" but we know it isn't true. Most of us have dated before and we know the difference.

Also, having AS does not absolve him of the responsibility of a marriage partner or romantic partner. It would be the same as if you said "cater to my feelings or get out." You're not saying that - you're saying you need that sometimes. I think that is fair, as it would be if he said he needs his alone time sometimes (for example.)]


You are absolutely right. We are both wired the way we are. I'm short tempered and very emotional, and he is the way he is. And we are both equally affected by our own traits. Yet, the most part of the compromise falls on the NT to give up on NV cues, and the best of emotional support. And I don't think it's fair. I work extremely hard to control my temper, much more than he would ever have to because he's a very mellow guy. But since he freezes as soon as things get emotional, I have to refrain my natural ways of expression. So I do. And it's hard and artificial for me. Yet, wether it's the cousellors or the spychologist we've seen, they all come to the same conclusion that I will have to change the way I speak and act, and lower my expectations of the marriage. While he has the luxury of levelling if not improving his expectations of marriage, because therapists back him up.

"We all hear "all guys are like that" but we know it isn't true. Most of us have dated before and we know the difference." Exactly!
He's not a bad guy. He's actually kind and supportive, only it's limited to when he sees fit. And I don't think he can see the difference it makes in my life. It's a matter of constituation, not choice.

Now my question is how do I get him to once in a while do something for my needs, the way I need it. Not by spelling it out, not by being overly using explanations, but simply him picking up on cues when it's really needed. God knows there is much that he doesn't get and never will, and it's hard enough to live with that. But sometimes....



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21 May 2013, 11:17 am

Adamantium wrote:
Greenbeans wrote:
.


"Imagine it as: Hearing people have the option to communicate by speaking or by using gestures and writing--it's a matter of preferences for the hearing, as opposed to being a matter of neccesity for the deaf. Deaf cannot pick up on communication by telephone, so the hearing just have to give up on that. That's quite the burden on the hearing..."

True. It is. But my husband could pick up on some cues when we first met. But it must have been exhausting. So much that there is little resemblance between the man I live with and the one I met. Ergo my impossible situation as Popsicle put it so well. It is a common thing that happens in AS-NT marriages. The AS can pretend to be NT for a short while, sanity permitting. Which is why within the marriage, they often fall back to their core personality. I mean how long can a human being keep up with a fake persona? It's a psychological phenomena, it's unvoluntary. It's like some women with low self-esteem are perpetually programmed to fall for violant guys. They don't know, they can't help it, their brains are wired that way. Some women can overcome it, some can't. They can't help falling for the bad guy, some AS can't help forming a fake persona to face the NT world.

"If I CANNOT understand your nonverbal signalling unless it is very broad and obvious, it's really irrational for you to be upset with me for not picking up on subtle signals you have been giving."

I know, that's why I get so lonely. I didn't say I blame him for it. I'm pointing out the fact that since I am aware of the fact that he can't help it, I feel frustrated and lonely in my marriage and I feel that I have been robbed of a crucial expectation of marriage: emotional support.

"The burden is only on you if you want to communicate. If you don't want the other party to understand you, go ahead and communicate in a way he can't perceive. But do be self-aware about what you are doing and why."

That goes back to what I was saying to Popsicle. So I'm very short tempered, it's my personality. I've always been that way. I may be loving and funny, but I get angry in 0.5 sec. Yet I may never be myself in my marriage because he can't take it. So when we met I was myself, very emotioanl and he was a persona. Now that we live together, he is himself, but I have to fake being a mellow person....for the rest of my life.

"If the guy is treating you badly--then deal with that. It doesn't really have to do with communication, it has to do with behavior. If you want him to behave differently, you will have to tell him that clearly. If he responds like a jerk, you are probably better off without him. What you cannot rationally do is not tell him what you want and then be pissed off at him for not guessing correctly. He may be largely oblivious to how badly he has been behaving. We can all have pretty big blind spots when they serve our own interests. Tell him your feelings have to do with his behavior and if he can't make the effort to see that, he will have plenty of time to think about it when he is living on his own again. He'll either make the effort for you or not and then you will know what is important to him."

True enough, it's more a matter of behaviour, I agree with you. I'm from the old school, and divorce is the last resort I'll ever go to. We have a child, we're married, and we made vows. And to me, as much as to him, it means going through hell for the other one...for better for worse. People think about divorce too much these days. They want a pill to lose weight instead of working hard at the gym, they want apps for their phones instead of trying to use their brain, and they want a divorce as soon as things get overwhelming. I made my fair share of sacrifices for this marriage, and I am close to thinking enough is enough, but that means I am hitting a wall and I can't think of any more "strategies" to make it work. It sounds like a war zone when I see it typed like that but that's the bottom line.

So I am left asking myself, is there any other conclusion people in similar situations have come to besides giving up on emotional connection? Or is my bottom line really spelling out everything until I die, and repressing the real me in the process?

Thank you for your reply btw :-)




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21 May 2013, 11:18 am

How do I quote btw? My husband is the computer genious... I like the pen and paper version... :-)



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21 May 2013, 12:11 pm

Greenbeans wrote:
How do I quote btw? My husband is the computer genious... I like the pen and paper version... :-)


You can see how it works by using the quote button, or you can just type the codes:

You enclose them in square brackets: [ code ]
you use the word quote in square brackets to start the quotation and /quote to end it. The forward slash is the way the system distinguishes between an opening code and closing code.

Quote:
Like this, for example

click on the quote button to see the code in this example. Once you get the hang of it, you can put your own codes in to control exactly what bits you want to quote.



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21 May 2013, 12:40 pm

Greenbeans wrote:
The AS can pretend to be NT for a short while, sanity permitting. Which is why within the marriage, they often fall back to their core personality. I mean how long can a human being keep up with a fake persona?
The persona was still a product of the man and his core personality. Even NTs (or perhaps especially NTs) put on personae all the time--at work, at a party, out golfing or fishing or whatever--the kind of personae they generate are viewed as part of who they are.


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I feel frustrated and lonely in my marriage and I feel that I have been robbed of a crucial expectation of marriage: emotional support.

This is the core reality of your situation. You need to tell him that absolutely clearly. If he understands that an doesn't modify his behavior to try to help you, then I don't think you have a marriage worth saving. If he knows that you are feeling that way and does not try do anything to help you, then he does not care how you feel. To me, the logical step at that point would be divorce.

If he says, "I will do anything in my power to make you feel better and give you emotional support," then you have a different situation. You can work with that and have a great marriage. But if he says, "that's your problem," I don't say anything there to save.

I say this to you as the AS partner in an AS/NT marriage. I prioritize my marriage over everything else. I would give up my job, move to another state, move to another country--do whatever it takes--to support my wife. I know this whenever I make a decision. I also know that at times I fail her because I am clueless about certain things or because there are certain things I just can't do. In those cases, we have work to do to find another way. That makes marriage very like many other areas of life for me--I may not be able to deal with it just going straight ahead. I may need to come at the situation from a different angle.

Is your husband willing to do that?

Quote:
So I'm very short tempered, it's my personality. I've always been that way. I may be loving and funny, but I get angry in 0.5 sec. Yet I may never be myself in my marriage because he can't take it.
It sounds like you might benefit from some therapy to find out why you are so pissed off. I would not frame this as a fundamental aspect of yourself. Maybe it is, but I would try working on it before accepting that. If you can modify it, not by pretending you don't have it but by actually changing your responses to things, you will have a better life.

Quote:
I'm from the old school, and divorce is the last resort I'll ever go to. We have a child, we're married, and we made vows.

Well, it's time for him to man up and take those vows seriously. I presume there was some variation on the theme of love and honor. He needs to both of those things, even if it's hard. If he thinks it's your job and he doesn't need to do any heavy lifting, then he is already breaking his vows as surely as if he was sleeping with the woman next door.

Quote:
So I am left asking myself, is there any other conclusion people in similar situations have come to besides giving up on emotional connection?

The alternative is that you both work to make an emotional connection. He has to let you in to his inner world and you have to go there. You have to let him into your inner world (which will almost certainly involve spelling it out--but seriously, is that such a burden?) and he will have to go there.

If you are willing to do that for each other, then you will have something awesome.

Good luck! I hope you find joy and contentment either way.



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21 May 2013, 3:03 pm

Excellent response Adamantium!

Greenbeans, if I am reading your post correctly, is the quote below what you ultimately want?

Greenbeans wrote:
Now my question is how do I get him to once in a while do something for my needs, the way I need it. Not by spelling it out, not by being overly using explanations, but simply him picking up on cues when it's really needed. God knows there is much that he doesn't get and never will, and it's hard enough to live with that. But sometimes....


If so, unfortunately not being able to "pick up cues" is to AS what sight is to blindness and sound is to deafness. He just can't do it. He can memorize certain facial expressions and gestures to remember that his wife needs support right now, but he won't be able to "read" any spontaneously as would an NT. Because AS is what it is, he will not be able to intuitively know "when it's really needed".

I am an NT [and a Highly Sensitive Person to boot!] and I know that this is difficult to hear and accept. :(



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21 May 2013, 3:07 pm

Martha, good point in bringing up HSP. I show traits of HSP also and my AS/NT relationship was a HUGE adjustment. HUGE learning curve, as well. He had adapted by and large to others' ways (mostly in the work world), but I didn't even know this 'AS world' existed. (All I knew before about AS was the press' version: extreme cases, non verbal cases, maybe Temple Grandin!)

It's on the NT to adapt (in a close, romantic NT/AS relationship), at least in the beginning. You have to ask yourself if what you love about the person is enough to balance out the initial hardships.

It does get easier in that people basically 'adapt or die' including in relationships. In other words this has changed me, and I am glad I stuck with it.



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21 May 2013, 3:24 pm

Popsicle wrote:
Martha, good point in bringing up HSP. I show traits of HSP also and my AS/NT relationship was a HUGE adjustment. HUGE learning curve, as well. He had adapted by and large to others' ways (mostly in the work world), but I didn't even know this 'AS world' existed. (All I knew before about AS was the press' version: extreme cases, non verbal cases, maybe Temple Grandin!)

It's on the NT to adapt (in a close, romantic NT/AS relationship), at least in the beginning. You have to ask yourself if what you love about the person is enough to balance out the initial hardships.

It does get easier in that people basically 'adapt or die' including in relationships. In other words this has changed me, and I am glad I stuck with it.


Popsicle, I am a full out HSP. My AS (more than one actually) and I were the same in many ways with regard to sensory over-stimulation issues. I realized that I also had my own OCD and stimming tendencies when I felt overwhelmed from literally feeling everyone's feelings around me.

It's unorthodox but I see human neurologies as exiting on an extended continuum with HSP at one end, NT in the middle, and AS on the other end. [ HSP <--------------- NT ------------------> AS ]

Do you think that your HSP traits play are part in your relationships with AS? From my experience I think that the HSP/AS opposition leads to immense initial chemistry.