Pattern Thinkers. Is my mind strange also for an Aspie?

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wildgrape
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23 Oct 2009, 1:17 pm

rdos wrote

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I'm not sure were I fit into this… I'm not a verbal thinker (I use a verbal 'translator'), but I'm also not a picture thinker. What I am very good at is to build complex models of things in my head


While there are some differences (I do mental math without thinking about it), your thought process is remarkably similar to mine. I think in neither words nor pictures (concepts?), and need to translate thoughts into words before expressing them. Never having done programming, I am unsure whether I would prefer bottom-up or top-down thinking in that context. I don't seem to have a particular predilection for either, and engage in lateral thinking as well.

Nightsun wrote

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The majority of my picture memories where before adolescence, back then my memory/mind where primary pictures.


My picture memories from childhood are very few and dim. My most vivid memories are intellectual. One of the earliest is from Grade 4 when we were first introduced to "science" and were taught the six basic machines and their corresponding formulae/ratios. I was so moved by, and in awe of, this revelation that the emotion I felt will be with me always.

fiddlerpianist wrote

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If someone asks me how to get from point A to B, it is in my nature to give them three options and let them decide which way they would like to go.


haha, interesting. I have always done similar, and to a degree that it is somewhat of a social deficit. It is almost a compulsion with me to list off various methods of solving a problem/attaining a goal, even when I know people just view this as a complete waste of time. I don't mind opining which I think is the best option, but you are right, people just want to hear the optimum solution. I spent years trying to stifle the urge to do this.

And Inventor, I recall once completing that personality test and I came out INTJ, too.



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23 Oct 2009, 1:26 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Nightsun wrote:
@Inventor: Actually I'm strongly INTJ...

Me, too. No wonder we seem to get along ;)


Another 1%, that brings the sector up to 7%.



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23 Oct 2009, 2:28 pm

I'm definitely a pattern thinker. I've learned to do analytical thinking but it doesn't come as naturally to me.

And I'm an INTP - strong I, but more moderate on the rest. I try to "live for the moment" when my brain needs a rest, but I seem destined to absorb information, plan, organize, systematize, and dwell on deep thoughts.



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23 Oct 2009, 2:57 pm

wildgrape wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote

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If someone asks me how to get from point A to B, it is in my nature to give them three options and let them decide which way they would like to go.

haha, interesting. I have always done similar, and to a degree that it is somewhat of a social deficit. It is almost a compulsion with me to list off various methods of solving a problem/attaining a goal, even when I know people just view this as a complete waste of time. I don't mind opining which I think is the best option, but you are right, people just want to hear the optimum solution.

I believe that, by providing all of the information they need to make an optimized decision on their own, I am somehow absolving myself of a potentially bad decision. For instance, if I said, "You could go this way but it is often more trafficky; decide for yourself," if they then proceed to get stuck in traffic, they won't blame me.


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26 Oct 2009, 5:23 am

Off-topic:
@fiddlerpianist:
hey, my daughter and my wife can listen to your music on youtube for 2 hours... :D good job :D

In-Topic:
one of the main stereotype of autism/Asperger is being single-minded, being unable to accept changes, being litteral. I'm seing in another thread here on WP that basically 50% of AS/Aspie are INTJ or INTP and actually INTJ personalities should be "the opposite" of the classical stereotype while INTP can sometimes work with it but it's also pretty different, so... isn't it strange? Expecially if we consider that in the total population INTx are 2% while here we are around 50% (25 times more common)?

This is from INTJ:

Quote:
Introverted iNtuition
INTJs are idea people. Anything is possible; everything is negotiable. Whatever the outer circumstances, INTJs are ever perceiving inner pattern-forms and using real-world materials to operationalize them. Others may see what is and wonder why; INTJs see what might be and say "Why not?!" Paradoxes, antinomies, and other contradictory phenomena aptly express these intuitors' amusement at those whom they feel may be taking a particular view of reality too seriously. INTJs enjoy developing unique solutions to complex problems.


This is from INTP:

Quote:
Introverted Thinking
Introverted Thinking strives to extract the essence of the Idea from various externals that express it. In the extreme, this conceptual essence wants no form or substance to verify its reality. Knowing the Truth is enough for INTPs; the knowledge that this truth can (or could) be demonstrated is sufficient to satisfy the knower. "Cogito, ergo sum" expresses this prime directive quite succinctly.
In seasons of low energy level, or moments of single-minded concentration, the INTP is aloof and detached in a way that might even offend more relational or extraverted individuals.

Extraverted iNtuition
Intuition softens and socializes Thinking, fleshing out the brittle bones of truths formed in the dominant inner world. That which is is not negotiable; yet actual application diffuses knowledge to the extent that knowledge needs qualification and context to be of any consequence in this foreign world of substance.
If Thinking can desist, the INTP is free to brainstorm, calling up the perceptions of the unconscious (i.e., intuition) which are mirrored in patterns in the realm of matter, time and space. These perceptions, in the form of theories or hunches, must ultimately defer to the inner principles, or at least they must not negate them.

Intuition unchained gives birth to play. INTPs enjoy games, formal or impromptu, which coax analogies, patterns and theories from the unseen into spontaneous expression in a way that defies their own comprehension.




From Coming to Terms with Asperger's Syndrome: The Alien Point of View (pretty interesting) http://www.hermetica.info/AS.html

About hyperfocus, detail, whole
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The third strategy is fascination. This involves wanting to know everything about a particular subject, to own the whole vocabulary, including the Latin names, to eliminate all of the unknowns by solving the puzzle. Children with AS may strive to know everything about their topic of interest and this may be all that they talk about. They will pontificate long and formally on their topic, a habit that has earned the textbook AS kids the nickname of "little professors". The only point or conclusion they may come to is that there are no more surprises for now. They will not notice how bored their listeners are getting, or possibly even that their listeners left the room an hour ago. The first one of these that got me a school-wide reputation was my 8th grade paper on the solar system. It ran about 80 pages, which in 1962 was nearly everything known on the subject. And god, were the other kids bored when I had to read the whole thing; insensitive aspie kid or no, I still felt sorry for them. Obviously it is not often possible to know everything about everything. This is where aspies get the reputation for focusing on parts of systems or objects. Be certain, however, that if the system or object is of manageable size and complexity, they will not stop until they know the whole damned thing. In sixth grade I learned that I didn't have the stamina or the patience to learn the entire dictionary, but at one point I had the Z's down pat.
Aspies are known for their attention to detail, and an ability to notice things that others miss, but is a big error to assume that they are therefore limited to concentration on details with no interest in, knowledge of, or facility for the big picture, as is commonly inferred or stated explicitly in the literature on AS. This is a particularly false assumption for right-brain dominant aspies. The right brain integrates the details into systems and wholes- it is not just the brain that dimwitted "feeling" people who can't think logically will use. The right is a great brain for thinking. An aspie may as easily have a compelling interest in how whole systems work. A lot of aspies are systematizers. After all, the surprises don't end until they get the gestalt and its synergy. Didn't one of our many great poster boys, Albert Einstein, only plod through the narrow details and formulae throughout his life in search of the single, elegant Theory of Everything? It was for this reason that I tended to pick fields of interest where true human knowledge was the most limited and I could just ignore all the conjecture- like science, religion, psychology and politics. Just kidding- I tried to avoid the dangers of too narrow a specialization by obsessing on or specializing in knowledge-in-general, hoping for some inter-disciplinary integration at the end of the attention tunnel. That became correlative thought and consilience.


About left-right brain: I've taken a test on the net and it results that I'm right-dominant, It's pretty strange for me because everyone used to say that I'm left dominant because I'm "very rational and analytical" but looking at the previous quote it can explain the point. Usually for NT and "usual psycology": left = analysis, right = feeling. For me is simply left = analysis, right = "integration". I probably use my right brain more, simply I use it in a "different way" and here is all the "left brain theory" fails.


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26 Oct 2009, 8:59 am

Nightsun wrote:
Off-topic:
@fiddlerpianist:
hey, my daughter and my wife can listen to your music on youtube for 2 hours... :D good job :D

Cool. Do they have contra dance in Italy? They ought to try it if there's one near you. It's really a blast.

Nightsun wrote:
About left-right brain: I've taken a test on the net and it results that I'm right-dominant, It's pretty strange for me because everyone used to say that I'm left dominant because I'm "very rational and analytical" but looking at the previous quote it can explain the point. Usually for NT and "usual psycology": left = analysis, right = feeling. For me is simply left = analysis, right = "integration". I probably use my right brain more, simply I use it in a "different way" and here is all the "left brain theory" fails.

I don't really know which I am. People always thought I was right-brain dominant growing up because I was musically gifted. However, I've always thought that I was left-brain dominant. I've never considered myself to be particularly "creative" in the traditional sense of the word (though I certainly think out-of-the-box). Rather, I systemize something to the point of understanding all of the elements which make up the particular sound I'm trying to achieve. I've always been good at imitation, and I think it's for this reason.

A bit of an aside... I don't personally buy into the idea that the brain is "all autistic" or "all neurotypical." I strongly believe there is middle ground, i.e. some areas of the brain which operate more autistically than others, and that it varies wildly between individuals. So many people here have latched onto the studies which show the brain differences, but how effectively have the borderline cases (people like myself) really been studied? I have a really hard time chalking up "mildness" simply to a supposed stellar ability to compensate.

By the way, I was talking to a few of my friends recently about pattern thinking. One is a fellow computer geek; the other is a fellow musician and mathematician. They thought the explanation was very insightful and explained their thought processes very well. Neither are officially on the spectrum, but they certainly have traits here and there (one has an AS nephew). We all love patterns dearly, but we love them differently in different ways.


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26 Oct 2009, 10:28 am

Usually people think that I'm left-brained due to my work. The image test:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right- ... 1114603615

usually come up with right brain but sometimes I see it in the other direction (that's cool). Other only test usually told that I have 48% left, 52% right. So I'm basically at the center.


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26 Oct 2009, 11:44 am

Nightsun wrote:
Usually people think that I'm left-brained due to my work. The image test:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right- ... 1114603615

usually come up with right brain but sometimes I see it in the other direction (that's cool).

I can see it going counter-clockwise, but I feel like it's a totally uphill battle to do so. If I just relax and see the image naturally, she's totally going clockwise.

I think the whole concept of brain-side dominance determining abilities or potential is a bit overrated. We are remarkably adaptive animals and we often use our brains in different ways. AS, for instance, is a prime example. :)


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wildgrape
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26 Oct 2009, 1:57 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote

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I think the whole concept of brain-side dominance determining abilities or potential is a bit overrated.


It could also be that there are vast differences in how well the two sides of the brain communicate with each other. When I first heard of the concept of right brain/left brain years ago, I determined that I was both. Now when I look at the rotating lady (I looked several times) I find that at first glance it can be rotating either way, and that I can change its direction at will by looking out of the corner of either eye.



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27 Oct 2009, 5:58 am

I went to INTJ forum ( www.intjforum.com ) and looked at an "Aspie-quiz" thread they have. It seems that around 70% get very likely to be Aspie, 10% very likely to be NT, 20% both trait. I'll try to get better data, and I'd like to find the same in the INTP forum. I'll search.


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27 Oct 2009, 9:41 pm

Nightsun wrote:
Usually people think that I'm left-brained due to my work. The image test:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right- ... 1114603615

usually come up with right brain but sometimes I see it in the other direction (that's cool). Other only test usually told that I have 48% left, 52% right. So I'm basically at the center.

I definitely have a much easier time seeing it turn clockwise and I'm very much a math/science guy.



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28 Oct 2009, 8:42 am

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28 Oct 2009, 11:00 pm

Nightsun wrote:
Mind math is more likely a logical/language skill than a generalization/pattern thinking. I'm around average in mind-math only because I've exerciced a lot. It has nothing to do with generalization or thinking in structure actually aritmetic and analysis are very procedural/logical and you can see it because you can easly make a simple code for a computer to do sums/products, etc.. while is really difficult to have a pattern spoiting program and at today is basically impossible to have one able to reproduce "scientific insight" or the kind of generalization needed to build a symbolic approach to quantum physics.
As for my "great brain" is true that I have (at least from tests) a very above average intelligence but actually there are many intellectual frame where I score average or below average. I'm actually unable to draw a simple face and it tokes me around 2 years to remember the 20-30 names of co-workers. I'm an average programmer (and I code-write a lot, due to necessity), I always failed at lyrics memory.
I think that it could be possible (probably less likely, but still possible) to have a below average iq or around average iq and having a "pattern/generalization" mind and is expecially about it that I said: "is important to develop strategy based on "mind kind" " instead of behavioural "function" ". Actually if someone "labeled" with LFA or classic autism think that he/she is more likely to have this kind of mind, I really like his/her contribution.


Abstract thinking got all to do with intelligence, it is basically intelligence. Some tests like the Raven are also made for measuring pattern thinking (or a least they try to...). My brain don't allow me to find the logical pattern of the last question (and some others) of this test http://iqtest.dk/main.swf, but you Nightsun, it's likely you can. (As you do get good results a this kind of tests.) A logic, a pattern that avoid my grasp, because I'm too dump to see it. :cry: The IQs tests really do measure intellectuals abilities, or at least some of their manifestations.

People with high IQS really do have a diiferent way of thinking and see things. Without being autism peoples with high IQ do tend to feel isolated because their "different". Certainly a highly intelligent asperger do experience some of this "difference" as well. And, yes it's likely that his mind is different from most aspies. A greater capacity for abstract and pattern thinking could indeed be among of this difference. So far it's only "smart" and "intellectual" peoples who have answer in this tread, also.

(BTW, It's really difficult for me too to remenber lyrics and people names too... Wonder from what it could be coming from.... Some learning disabilties linked to AS maybe...)


Even though I'm science oriented, I see the figure turning clockwise.



atheory0101
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29 Oct 2009, 12:38 am

Quote:
I'm definitely a pattern thinker. I've learned to do analytical thinking but it doesn't come as naturally to me.

And I'm an INTP - strong I, but more moderate on the rest. I try to "live for the moment" when my brain needs a rest, but I seem destined to absorb information, plan, organize, systematize, and dwell on deep thoughts.


This pretty much describes me perfectly.

To add food for thought to this thread - I view abstraction(s) as objective concepts. That is to say, they are "laws" (such as mathematical laws) that apply to all elements within their scope (whether that be the entire universe or a defined set) regardless of whether or not anyone is observing them.

An example of an abstraction would be to say that 1+1=2. We can understand this as a "law" of mathematics without tangibly holding an item in one hand and another item in our other hand and saying that we have two.

Abstract thinking in general requires objective perception, which I define as the ability to perceive an object, person, situation, etc... from all conceivable perspectives, including those that are unpleasant to the observer. It is a "birds-eye view" that enables the observer to perceive situations in ways that most people do not because their viewpoints are colored by their own biases. It originates from an internal sense of disconnection between one's own desires and the ultimate "truth" of reality.

In other words, I don't care how much I want to believe anything, regardless of how beneficial or non-beneficial it would be to me. My sense of objectivity has given me all of the options, and I have parsed out the best one based upon what would be best for the world overall.

This is not much of a big deal when dealing with something like a mathematical equation. It becomes a major problem in social situations where bias is ultimately required to create the emotional bonds that NTs require to form relationships.

Those who have objective perception (and from reading this thread I can tell that some of you do), will mostly likely find that people are disinterested in them because they refuse to show others that they're willing to sacrifice their own beliefs for the sake of others/the group. You believe what you believe because you have considered each and every one of the options involved and have come to what you trust is the best conclusion. You also understand that the NT "groupthink" is often wrong because you have seen it fail time and time again. And if you're anything at all like me, you cannot help but sit back and wonder about how NTs could be so stupid to fall for it. :P



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29 Oct 2009, 5:03 am

@Tollorin
I do pretty well in every IQ test, but I really shine in Raven's matrix, the main problem I see for me (and probably for many Aspie) in test like that is that actually the solution is not unique. Basically I can usually see more than one possible pattern and not always it agree with the one chocen by the psic. In a math language usually the problem is not well defined.

@atheory0101
I completly agree with you, one of the main problem I have with people is that they tend to mix-up different "brain areas", If I want to solve a problem I'll try to detach me from its reality and find the "mathematical solution" of it. This procedure is alien to a great percent of the population. That's why for most people morality come before ethics. I think that I don't have morality at all :P


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30 Oct 2009, 8:21 am

I have both the Grandin-type visual thinking and pattern/system-based thinking. I'm an INFJ.

The left/right brain thing is so exaggerated out of proportion by BS pop psychology it's sad. the real distinction between the two is that the left hemisphere cortical neurons prefer more local, nearby connections while the right hemisphere prefers more wide-ranging connections. So if somebody says "cow" the left hemisphere would generate associations like "milk" "beef", "manure", etc. while the right hemisphere would generate associations like "barnyard smell", "staying at Aunt Lucy's farm", etc.


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