you're not a doctor, stop telling people they don't have AS.

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That's great if your previous experiences have been exemplary so far, but for at least some folks on WP, who have been the victims of such diagnosis-based discrimination, my so-called "overgeneralization" will ring true. There are always ways that people can break the law if they really want to do so, regardless of whether you're in Connecticut or Northamptonshire or Antarctica. I assume there are criminals in Northamptonshire also... or would that be another overgeneralization?

I read this, then instantly thought of those hypochondriacs in my class that claim they have all sorts of illnesses and things wrong with them when they clearly don't. I also began to think of those people that say "Oh, yeah, I think I have that!" as soon as you mention Aspergers but before you even describe Aspergers Syndrome to them. So maybe we aren't doctors, but neither are you. Until it's official (which, if you really believe you had it, should be - as you should have seen a psychologist or something by now to confirm it), I'm merely going to look at you as someone who claims to have it but has no medical proof - that's fair enough, right?

EDIT: For verification, I'm not saying you don't have it, I'm just saying there is no medical proof you have it.

I live in the UK, and I have been asked about disabilities/medical conditions in a number of jobs I have applied for.

I understand, but not all self diagnosed people are morons like those.

It depends on context.

If someone was claiming Asperger's as a way to justify being a jerk, even if they had no social or communication issues, no obsessions, no sensory processing issues, etc - yeah, that does deserve a withering look and no sympathy.

If someone had issues relating to people because they're too literal and don't understand metacommunication, had to be taught explicitly how to socialize where others could do it naturally, have obsessions, can't go out without dark glasses/earplugs, etc - that, I would take seriously.

on the first point I bolded I have to say that even though I qualify I think that I am grateful that I crashed headlong into the same walls over and over and over again, in a sense. I mean, it's been a long painful journey but there is no doubt in my mind what my limitations are, with work, with learning, with social environments, etc, because I have found those limits over and over throughout my life. I wouldn't probably choose to do it over again but I do have some gratitude for having been free to crash and burn enough to know what exactly it is that is wrong, through bitter experience, without having someone carve lines in stone for me.

on the second point, I can relate as I have had (and still have) fallout from misdiagnoses before and I am not sure at this point that putting myself once again in front the 'desk of the almighty' to get another label slapped on is going to do me any good whatever, except for the benefit of thumbing my nose at parental dysfunction and opportunism. Every time I feel like I should start moving in that direction I just can't do it, thanks to being burned by psychiatry. Maybe some day. On jobs if you disclose it you set yourself up for prejudice and if you don't disclose it and they find out it could be grounds for termination. And I would definitely not be disclosing it on jobs, I don't think, because in my experience people just don't understand asperger's, i.e. how you can be so intelligent but have trouble figuring out how to do certain simple manual things or whatever. They can't reconcile the two, especially if they are of average intelligence and mechanically minded or have good manual dexterity. It think AS & HFA are disorders that people are suspicious of because the people that have it are so smart (alot of people find us annoyingly smart). I've done alot of factory work and people seem to have problems with that stuff, if you talk "proper" as I've been accused of but need help figuring out how to put a twist tie on a garbage bag...the whole smart/dumb contrast. At this point it's a dilemna I don't want to wrestle with.

However, it must be said that with the exception of conventional training as to what the agreed upon standards of objective observation define ASDs as, that there is no conclusive test for proving anyone is on the spectrum and therefore no one has any medical proof (exception being for those severely affected/lower-functioning, and even those are assumptive and not conclusive). So be as skeptical as you wish; I'll be as inclusive as I wish - and we'll accept those who come here seeking help and guidance regardless of their diagnostic status. Sound fair?


M.

Like I've already said...I'm not good at politics. I voiced my opinion and then someone challenged...it seems arguing is a major part of quite a lot of the people on here.

Unfortunately, neither can be verified by forum representation alone.

Also very well said! Yeah, it sure was very painful to crash into those walls over and over, but at least you and I would be able to discover our own limits, rather than letting a label set our limits (perhaps too restrictively) for us.

There are LOADS there! Quite a few in Bedfordshire too but they all live in Bedford! (Overgenaralization here too!)

One word: Touché. For once, after all my spare time researching up the topic, I cannot find a counter-argument to that other than, if that were the case, what makes us different from any average NT other than our common features? How do we know for certain that we are not just "normal" people/NTs only with common features? There is medical proof that we lack certain brain patterns (I got this "proof" off Wikipedia, so it may be incorrect), that's why. If you want to be 100% certain you have Aspergers, why not search for these Brain Patterns - despite the probably high costs?

Have heard about the brain wave research - from what I understand, it is not conclusive. Diagnosis is an odd concept in and of itself... I have two doctors who concur that it is most likely, but neither is comfortable making an official diagnosis, thus why my status remains unofficial here. But even if not, the advice and suggestions I find here help more than any I've received in my life. The perspectives here make sense to me. It's a difficult line to mark, as it -is- subjective at this point and dependent on the ability of a third party to find correlation between behavior and standards of condition. That is why I lean towards inclusion as even those who might be AS, PDD-NOS, BAP, or just different in some way can find help and guidance here.


M.

I will probably never seek a professional opinion on whether I have AS.

If I had done so as a child (or rather, if my parents had done so on my behalf) then I think I would probably have been diagnosed with it and I think that the diagnosis would have been of benefit to me. I suspect that some of the suffering of my first 30 years could have been avoided as a result.

But what would it do for me now? I am who I am - a weird person. My partner, my family and the few friends I have understand me as much as I could hope for and treat me in a way that is approprirate to my needs. It has taken me a lot of time and a lot of misery to get to this situation, but I am here now.

Having a diagnosis would not change how any of them relate to me.

Yes, it would be interesting for me to hear a professional opinion, and it might answer some questions for me. But they would want to involve my parents, and I know that my father would be very upset. It would be a huge emotional cost for him and therefore for me.

When I weigh this cost against the small and questionable benefits of having a diagnosis, it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

If a diagnosis had even existed when I was a child I'm not sure it would have changed anything. The thing I realize now I really needed help with was my executive dysfunction, but even back then people didn't realize spacey little girls might have a problem with cognition.

This why I will never seek a diagnosis. There are absolutely no practical advantages, either now or in the future, to getting it. On the other hand, definitely when I return to my country, at best employers and insurers wouldn't find out, have something like that and you can kiss any job with half-decent pay goodbye.



This is also an issue for me.



I've always found that sort of attitude hypocritical and particularly odious. To re-use your example, it is like complaining about being discriminated for being black while judging someone on the basis of how black they are.



Something that hasn't been mentioned here is that AS is not like high blood pressure, which you can measure objectively. AS assessment is far more subjective than reading a number off an instrument and comparing it to guidelines, so there's a lot of room for all sorts of personal factors to interfere. Add that it's a spectrum, not binary, and you have a lot of margin for disagreement and error. A doctor diagnosing it is not proof positive that you have it, a doctor saying it's not AS isn't proof positive you don't.

The initial contention you are arguing against is that for some individuals, their career aspirations could be harmed as a result of diagnosis. This is not a contention that for every job, whether you have Aspergers Syndrome will be relevant, taken into account, and will render the position unobtainable accordingly. You could list a million instances of peoples' career prospects not being undermined by a diagnosis without undermining the premise you are disputing.

You might not want to join the police; how does this change the fact that others might want to join the police and a diagnosis of Aspergers Syndrome could interfere with that? You might not want to join the military, how does this change the fact that others with Aspergers Syndrome might, at least one did (and perhaps still does) and was refused entry to the armed services in the UK as a result of having Aspergers Syndrome?

You got a job in an office, this does not change the fact that to become a pilot, a police officer, an air-force recruit and a good number of other things besides, one will be required to make medical disclosures to even be considered for the role, and that the disclosure of Aspergers Syndrome can and demonstrataby has blocked people from any prospect of pursuing their career aspirations, including in the UK. The aspirations of others are not necessarily identical to your own.


If this is a petulant attempt to guilt people into silence, you should not expect it to be particularly successful on any internet discussion forum, and perhaps least of all on one dedicated to people with Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

I point out to you that your opinions were not posted without context, but rather within a context where others had posted opinions that your opinion can be construed as a challenge to. So you posted your opinion and you simultanelously challenged the opinion of others. Others posted their opinions, which happen to also be opinions that could be construed as challenges to your opinion. There is no material difference between your opinions and challenges to the opinions of other posters, and no material differences between what you describe as challenges to your opinions by others and the opinions of those others.

If you are not merely being petulant, and actually do not entirely understand the situation, please note that this is a discussion forum. As is common on this forum discussion often entails the posting of opinions that are then commented on in particular ways that include agreement, elaboration and disagreement. This is entirely routine and the simple fact is if you have an opinion that you do not want others to post their opinions about should they disagree with your opinion, your best recourse is to not post such an opinion on an internet discussion forum.

Note that when you reply to a thread, half of the options offered to you are to quote someone else's post; note that when you arrive at the page for posting a reply the very first button in the row of buttons sitting below the subject field and above the message body field is a "quote" button whose purpose is to facilitate the quick and easy quoting of a previous poster's comments. Think about the very mechanics of this forum and consider why they would be set up like that if not to facilitate discussion (including disagreement) of each other's postings, including each other's opinions.

I happen to find your posts well formed, well-formatted, and in short easy and pleasant reading, even when I do not agree with the opinions expressed, so it is not for my benefit that I suggest that when you go to post an opinion, that you consider whether or not you are content to have the opinion challenged by others, and if you find you do not want the opinion challenged by others, that you reconsider posting it.

While such reconsideration may deprive of us of some of your potential contributions, our enjoyment of your posts should not come at the cost of your contentment and your enjoyment of the forums.