battle of the labels: gifted and AS/HFA/ADHD/NVLD/etc.

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For some reason....this thread has really exhausted me unlike any other i've encountered on WP or elsewhere.

I don't have the slightest idea why either.


I feel like I have a dried herring for a brain everytime I post in it or read anyone else's posts.

"For some reason....this thread has really exhausted me unlike any other i've encountered on WP or elsewhere."

Sorry, Horus. Please don't feel obligated to respond to anything I've said to you if you don't want to.

Mosaic, I'm always interested in discussing giftedness as it relates to autism because that's somewhere where I lie. It's been puzzling to me to try and figure out why I've been able to do reasonably well while others have far more crippling disabilities. I think that "coping strategies" can only go so far in accounting for the differences.

Zonder: I think your spot on about gifted autistics. I scored average on working memory, and average on all performance tests except the math part (I think?). My high scores on the verbal part wouldn't have gotten me far without normal abilities at least on working memory. But it does hide autism. I did score very high on the diagnostic tests, but the psychologist (experienced, thankfully) concluded that on just meeting me the first time he thought I would at most be on the borderline of an ASD. It was only after analyzing HOW (i.e thrugh logic and reasoning,)I managed socially rather than the fact that I could pass for normal.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm aware of my good fortune in this respect.

I don't know how familiar you are with the concept of "overexcitabilities," so here's the basic introduction: http://www.stephanietolan.com/dabrowskis.htm And here's a more in-depth discussion: http://www.sengifted.org/articles_socia ... fted.shtml

I've extracted the behavior associated with the overxcitabilities in gifted kids and put next to them, in parentheses, the way an unsympathetic clinician might describe them while diagnosing the child with a learning disability.

Psychomotor
* Needs lots of movement and athletic activity (ADHD: "hyperactive; impulsive")
* Has trouble slowing down one's thoughts so one can go to sleep (ADHD; insomnia is a common trait in ADHD)
* Fast talking (?)
* Lots of gestures (?)
* Sometimes nervous tics (OCD; often found in autism spectrum too)

Sensual
* Demands to have the label cut out of the shirt (SPD, autistic spectrum: "overly sensitive")
* love for sensory things -- textures, smells, tastes etc (for some reason, positive sensory experiences are NEVER discussed in writing about autism by non-autistic people, AFAIK).
* powerful reaction to negative sensory input (bad smells, loud sounds, etc.) (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive")
* sensitive to bright lights; squints (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive")
* sensitive to harsh sounds (SPD, autistic spectrum; if sounds are distracting, may be labeled ADHD)
* Aesthetic awareness -- awed to breathlessness at the sight of a beautiful sunset, cries hearing Mozart, etc. (if the trigger is a sunset or Mozart, the child will be labeled gifted. If the trigger is a spinning wheel or an opening and closing garage door, the child will be labeled autistic).

Imaginational
In my experience, the OEs that REALLY annoyed the hell out of teachers were this and emotional--as you can guess by the list of lovely adjectives I've put next to some of these traits.
* dreamers, poets, "space cadets" (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in teh clouds," "wasting time")
* strong visual thinkers ("poor verbal thinkers"; "disorganized work"; "poor writer")
* use lots of metaphorical speech (when a child tells elaborate stories as if they were real, he or she will be accused of telling "tall tales" or "lies" and "not knowing the difference between imagination and reality," when in fact part of the game is to pretend it's real. If an adult says "this isn't real," he's breaking the game, and acting like that annoying person who interrupts an exciting movie to complain about the special effects).
* day dream (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in the clouds," "wasting time")
* remember their dreams at night and often react strongly to them
* take a long time to "grow out of" Santa, the tooth fairy, elves and fairies, etc.. ("immature," "doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality")

Intellectual
*highly logical, and expects the same from others (Autism spectrum: "extreme male brain," "splits hairs," "rude," if constantly correcting teacher or other students, "rigid")
* loves brain teasers and puzzles
* enjoys following a line of complex reasoning (if this comes with tuning out when the reasoning is simple, ADHD).
* enjoys figuring things out. (if this comes with insistence on working things out for oneself instead of being taught, may be diagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder, "rigid," "stubborn")
* love of new information, cognitive games, etc. (Autistic spectrum: "special interest," "little professor")

Emotional
This is where the differences from autism seem the greatest, although I would guess people here who describe themselves as empathic and overly emotional sensitive might identify.
* Emotions are very intense; happier when happy, angrier when angry, etc. (bipolar, depression; "explosive child," "strong-willed child," "mood swings," "drama queen")
* Very broad range of emotions
* Need for deep connections with other people or animals
* Wants to find close and deep friends, and may invent imaginary friends if they can't find them (autism spectrum; "loner," "doesn't make friends," "has unrealistic expectations of friendships," "immature")
* Feels betrayed by a child who plays with a different friend instead of him or her (autism spectrum; "has unrealistic expectations of friendships")
* Susceptible to depression (depression)

This list left off a few crucial traits, such as:
* prefers the company of older children and adults because of a need for intellectual peers (Autism spectrum: "can't maintain friendships with children own age")
* intellectual enthusiasms--topics of interest which will be pursued intensely, in depth, for a period of time and dropped when the child eventually loses interest (Autism spectrum: "special interests")
* can concentrate for hours, even forgetting to eat, when interested in something, but can have trouble focusing when underchallenged (ADHD: "hyperfocus," "inattentive")

@penseive: "So does this mean I'm gifted? Or does it mean that I just like to waste time by answering lists?"

Maybe? I don't think anyone knows for sure whether having most of these traits is enough to automatically make someone gifted, or whether they just happen to come with the territory. I'm pretty sure most people have a few. I'd love to know how many people have most of these.

If you're curious, this is one of the better checklists, although it's geared to children: http://www.ri.net/gifted_talented/character.html There's also a book called The Gifted Adult which takes the position that most people who are gifted, don't know they are and would deny it, because they think it's about success in school or making a lot of money.

...
To those of you who are wondering how much being gifted helps...that's a good question. For me, it's helped in the following areas:
* Understanding how I learn well and coming up with compensatory strategies. Most of these I developed unconsciously, and I'm still figuring out how many compensatory strategies I actually use.
* Although my auditory processing skills are not the best, I learn a lot from lectures because while the teacher is talking, I can filter the information into "important" and "not so important," figure out what the main points vs. the sub points are, tag everything with labels so I can remember it, and write it down. I think this is because I'm very good at thinking about concepts, which I associate with "giftedness."
* My enthusiasm about learning and ideas has helped me impress professors.
* While it takes me obscenely long to write anything and it's often insufficiently linear, my essays are creative, on an ambitious topic, and explore an idea in depth. Even though I'm just thinking in a way that's "natural" to me, I look like I'm going the extra mile and so I usually get a good grade.
* I've been able to teach myself a lot about social skills and human behavior from books and from observation.
* Having been told I was smart for most of my life, I have a lot of confidence in my ability to contribute to class discussions, so I participate a lot. This helps impress professors and earn me a good grade.
* It helps me "fake it." I come off as absent-minded, a little ditzy, a little awkward, and a little flaky in terms of making plans and getting involved in stuff, but basically just an "atypical NT."
* Being able to step back and think through difficult social situations sometimes lets me respond in a mature way; for example, ending a relationship with someone without saying something nasty, giving a lame excuse, proposing an infinite "break," or doing it by email.

Being "gifted" hasn't helped me figure out stuff like how to do math in my head, how to use a self-service check out without looking really awkward, how to know WHY what I've just said is awkward and not just THAT it is, how to read a map, how to not lose things, etc.

I could write even more about the NEGATIVE aspects of being gifted and having the label.

Psychomotor
* Needs lots of movement and athletic activity (ADHD: "hyperactive; impulsive") Not really
* Has trouble slowing down one's thoughts so one can go to sleep (ADHD; insomnia is a common trait in ADHD) Yes
* Fast talking (?) Yes
* Lots of gestures (?) Yes
* Sometimes nervous tics (OCD; often found in autism spectrum too) I think so

Sensual
* Demands to have the label cut out of the shirt (SPD, autistic spectrum: "overly sensitive") No
* love for sensory things -- textures, smells, tastes etc (for some reason, positive sensory experiences are NEVER discussed in writing about autism by non-autistic people, AFAIK). Yes
* powerful reaction to negative sensory input (bad smells, loud sounds, etc.) (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive") Yes
* sensitive to bright lights; squints (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive") A little
* sensitive to harsh sounds (SPD, autistic spectrum; if sounds are distracting, may be labeled ADHD) OMG yes.
* Aesthetic awareness -- awed to breathlessness at the sight of a beautiful sunset, cries hearing Mozart, etc. (if the trigger is a sunset or Mozart, the child will be labeled gifted. If the trigger is a spinning wheel or an opening and closing garage door, the child will be labeled autistic). OMG yes.

Imaginational
In my experience, the OEs that REALLY annoyed the hell out of teachers were this and emotional--as you can guess by the list of lovely adjectives I've put next to some of these traits. Wink
* dreamers, poets, "space cadets" (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in teh clouds," "wasting time") Yes
* strong visual thinkers ("poor verbal thinkers"; "disorganized work"; "poor writer") No
* use lots of metaphorical speech (when a child tells elaborate stories as if they were real, he or she will be accused of telling "tall tales" or "lies" and "not knowing the difference between imagination and reality," when in fact part of the game is to pretend it's real. If an adult says "this isn't real," he's breaking the game, and acting like that annoying person who interrupts an exciting movie to complain about the special effects). Yes
* day dream (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in the clouds," "wasting time") Yes
* remember their dreams at night and often react strongly to them Yes
* take a long time to "grow out of" Santa, the tooth fairy, elves and fairies, etc.. ("immature," "doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality") Yes

Intellectual
*highly logical, and expects the same from others (Autism spectrum: "extreme male brain," "splits hairs," "rude," if constantly correcting teacher or other students, "rigid") Yes
* loves brain teasers and puzzles Yes
* enjoys following a line of complex reasoning (if this comes with tuning out when the reasoning is simple, ADHD). YES.
* enjoys figuring things out. (if this comes with insistence on working things out for oneself instead of being taught, may be diagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder, "rigid," "stubborn") YES.
* love of new information, cognitive games, etc. (Autistic spectrum: "special interest," "little professor") YES.

Emotional
This is where the differences from autism seem the greatest, although I would guess people here who describe themselves as empathic and overly emotional sensitive might identify.
* Emotions are very intense; happier when happy, angrier when angry, etc. (bipolar, depression; "explosive child," "strong-willed child," "mood swings," "drama queen") Yes.
* Very broad range of emotions Yes
* Need for deep connections with other people or animals Yes
* Wants to find close and deep friends, and may invent imaginary friends if they can't find them (autism spectrum; "loner," "doesn't make friends," "has unrealistic expectations of friendships," "immature") Yes
* Feels betrayed by a child who plays with a different friend instead of him or her (autism spectrum; "has unrealistic expectations of friendships") No
* Susceptible to depression (depression) Yes

This list left off a few crucial traits, such as:
* prefers the company of older children and adults because of a need for intellectual peers (Autism spectrum: "can't maintain friendships with children own age") Yes
* intellectual enthusiasms--topics of interest which will be pursued intensely, in depth, for a period of time and dropped when the child eventually loses interest (Autism spectrum: "special interests") YES.
* can concentrate for hours, even forgetting to eat, when interested in something, but can have trouble focusing when underchallenged (ADHD: "hyperfocus," "inattentive") Yes

Psychomotor
* Needs lots of movement and athletic activity (ADHD: "hyperactive; impulsive") Yes (dance at inappropriate times)
* Has trouble slowing down one's thoughts so one can go to sleep (ADHD; insomnia is a common trait in ADHD) Not usually
* Fast talking (?) Yes
* Lots of gestures (?) Yes
* Sometimes nervous tics (OCD; often found in autism spectrum too) Does shaking violently when I get nervous count?

Sensual
* Demands to have the label cut out of the shirt (SPD, autistic spectrum: "overly sensitive") Yes as a kid, not anymore
* love for sensory things -- textures, smells, tastes etc (for some reason, positive sensory experiences are NEVER discussed in writing about autism by non-autistic people, AFAIK). Yes
* powerful reaction to negative sensory input (bad smells, loud sounds, etc.) (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive") Yes
* sensitive to bright lights; squints (SPD, autistic spectrum, "overly sensitive") No
* sensitive to harsh sounds (SPD, autistic spectrum; if sounds are distracting, may be labeled ADHD) Yes, esp. startling sounds.
* Aesthetic awareness -- awed to breathlessness at the sight of a beautiful sunset, cries hearing Mozart, etc. (if the trigger is a sunset or Mozart, the child will be labeled gifted. If the trigger is a spinning wheel or an opening and closing garage door, the child will be labeled autistic). yes.

Imaginational
In my experience, the OEs that REALLY annoyed the hell out of teachers were this and emotional--as you can guess by the list of lovely adjectives I've put next to some of these traits. Wink
* dreamers, poets, "space cadets" (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in teh clouds," "wasting time") Yes
* strong visual thinkers ("poor verbal thinkers"; "disorganized work"; "poor writer") No
* use lots of metaphorical speech (when a child tells elaborate stories as if they were real, he or she will be accused of telling "tall tales" or "lies" and "not knowing the difference between imagination and reality," when in fact part of the game is to pretend it's real. If an adult says "this isn't real," he's breaking the game, and acting like that annoying person who interrupts an exciting movie to complain about the special effects). Maybe? Don't remember
* day dream (ADHD; "inattentive," "distracted," "not paying attention," "head in the clouds," "wasting time") Yes
* remember their dreams at night and often react strongly to them Not usually
* take a long time to "grow out of" Santa, the tooth fairy, elves and fairies, etc.. ("immature," "doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality") Yes

Intellectual
*highly logical, and expects the same from others (Autism spectrum: "extreme male brain," "splits hairs," "rude," if constantly correcting teacher or other students, "rigid") Yes
* loves brain teasers and puzzles Yes
* enjoys following a line of complex reasoning (if this comes with tuning out when the reasoning is simple, ADHD). Yes
* enjoys figuring things out. (if this comes with insistence on working things out for oneself instead of being taught, may be diagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder, "rigid," "stubborn") Yes
* love of new information, cognitive games, etc. (Autistic spectrum: "special interest," "little professor") Yes

Emotional
This is where the differences from autism seem the greatest, although I would guess people here who describe themselves as empathic and overly emotional sensitive might identify.
* Emotions are very intense; happier when happy, angrier when angry, etc. (bipolar, depression; "explosive child," "strong-willed child," "mood swings," "drama queen") A bit
* Very broad range of emotions Probably
* Need for deep connections with other people or animals Yes
* Wants to find close and deep friends, and may invent imaginary friends if they can't find them (autism spectrum; "loner," "doesn't make friends," "has unrealistic expectations of friendships," "immature") Yes
* Feels betrayed by a child who plays with a different friend instead of him or her (autism spectrum; "has unrealistic expectations of friendships") No
* Susceptible to depression (depression) No

This list left off a few crucial traits, such as:
* prefers the company of older children and adults because of a need for intellectual peers (Autism spectrum: "can't maintain friendships with children own age") Yes
* intellectual enthusiasms--topics of interest which will be pursued intensely, in depth, for a period of time and dropped when the child eventually loses interest (Autism spectrum: "special interests") Yes
* can concentrate for hours, even forgetting to eat, when interested in something, but can have trouble focusing when underchallenged (ADHD: "hyperfocus," "inattentive") Yes[/quote]

I don't think all forms of autism get less obvious because of the cognitive advantages that sometimes get called giftedness and sometimes don't. 

The two people with the highest vocabularies of anyone I've met, one of whom is thriving at college that he entered at the age of 13, both of them have such severe sensory and/or motor differences that their IQs tested at 10 in one case and 30 in another. Neither of them remotely pass for normal, despite both meeting certain definitions of giftedness. 

When I was growing up, including during the time I was described as gifted, I was an extreme "sensory seeker". I interacted with objects in a noticeably unusual way, due to perceiving their sensory qualities without easily perceiving their identity or function. I carried my body in a way that a childhood neighbor describes as being like my arms and legs were too heavy for me. I had unusual mannerisms. The only thing preventing people from calling this autistic was a lack of knowledge about autism. Instead I was called ret*d, psycho, tard, spaz, and crazy. 

I think that those sorts of cognitive advantages only help the social aspects of autism. You can use them to memorize and calculate how to respond to people. But they don't really do much for perceptual and motor differences. 

I have real trouble finding and connecting to my body. I experience the world from "beneath" language, "beneath" typical sensory awareness, and "beneath" typical (symbolic, abstract) thought. I don't know entirely how to describe beneath but I made the following to describe my relationship to language:



There are eight different levels shown on there, one on top of the other.  

The top level, or typical language, shows ordinary words. It represents being able to understand words and their meanings. 

The second level shows nonsense words. It represents being able to understand the sound of the word but not knowing the meaning. 

The third level shows jumbles of letters. It represents being able to recognize the letters but nothing else about a word. 

The fourth level shows jumbles of symbols. It represents being able to recognize that the letters are symbols, but not being able to recognize the symbols or anything else about it. 

The fifth level shows a bunch of short lines disconnected from each other. It represents being able to recognize that there are separate pieces there, but not even recognizing them as symbols.

The sixth level shows a bunch of lines connected to each other. It represents being able to see a pattern but not recognizing the separation of the letters on any level. 

The seventh level shows (the real painting shows it better than the flash photo of it) a painting of various flowing and overlapping shapes. It represents being able to see sensory impressions and the patterns between them, but not picking out even the pattern of letters as anything special, nor recognizing objects, etc.  

The eighth level is gradually shaded into from the seventh. It is all black except for a white circle. It represents the point where even sensory impressions and the patterns between them don't make it into awareness.

Each level is beneath the last one, showing what I mean by "beneath" language, "beneath" typical thought, etc. 

Where my mind most naturally lives is the seventh and eighth levels. The highest I can climb without much pain is the fifth and sixth levels. At the fourth level things become noticeably painful -- every time I look at such a symbol, my brain hurts. And it only becomes worse going higher and higher up to the first level.

And it is as I said like climbing a cliff. The moment I let go (or the moment my arms and legs tire and give out) I plunge down to the seventh and eighth levels again, although sometimes I can manage to grab on again at the fifth and sixth. 

And down in the depths like that, the only cognitive ability that could possibly get me out of there is the one that would mean not being there at all, except possibly during extreme shutdown.  And that's obviously just a contradiction in terms. So the cognitive abilities that result in being called gifted would probably not help me pass better. 

The same kind of painting could be used to represent being beneath symbolic/abstract thought, beneath standard recognition of objects, etc. Language is just a special case.

But at any rate for someone like me and many other autistics, the social stuff that can be calculated out is only the tiny tip of the iceberg when it comes to autism. I don't think such calculation would help me respond typically to objects, connect better to my body, relate better to language (especially receptive), etc. People often assume that since the main problems they can overcome through calculation are social, then those who can't pass are just more obviously socially inept than they are. But it's more complicated than that -- most people who can't pass have a lot more going on than social problems.  And our sensory-perceptual differences are usually a lot more complicated than hypersensitivity.

@anbuend: Oh, wow. Love the painting. Makes it a lot easier to imagine what you see.

There's no way I could prove this, but I bet there are 2 traits that are genetically linked, that can produce both "gifted" and "autistic" people. These would be obsession over special interests and sensory processing differences. I would guess that obsession over special interests can work in a positive direction--savants have it, for example, and so did just about every creative genius who ever lived. I think what separates the groups is probably sensory processing differences. I don't think you can reason your way into seeing what your brain doesn't want you to see.

The type of sensory processing difference probably matters...gifted checklists just talk about hypersensitivity, but there's also hyposensitivity and just plain difference, and then there's what anbuend just described. The severity probably also matters.

The areas of life affected probably make a difference, too. There's a theory that reading and math disabilities are caused by visual and auditory processing problems. But not everyone with visual or auditory processing problems has a reading or math disability. If your sensory processing problems affect academics much, you probably won't test as gifted. If they selectively affect non-academics, then you can.

And when sensory processing problems are severe but don't really affect academics, that's probably where gifted + autistic happens.

Thoughts?