NT's should explain themselves. (A challenge to NT's)

Post Reply New Topic

Wow. Thank you for all your great responses, and to Janissy for being so honest.

Now I just have to figure out how to get over being ostracized by two different groups and losing two good friends as a result. One incident was 10 years ago and one was almost 3 years ago (though one of the friends I lost was just this week because I found out she was friends with the woman who came after me and I couldn't deal with it). Are Aspies like elephants -- we never forget?

I spend some time with larger groups and have more superficial relationships with many of the members but I would not join a group without a purpose. In larger groups the banter tends to be more superficial because people tend to prefer not to show too much of themselves around people they don't know well. People can be more or less reserved, but the bigger the group the more reserved people tend to be.

Bigger groups can be a good way to find the people you'll be closer with, like say a church. I've got friendly relationships with everyone there. At Coffee Hour I enjoy a bit of light banter with whoever is around. I also spend time with my close friends from church outside of church and have deeper talks with them in more private settings. Most of them I met at the bigger less personal settings, and I continually meet new people who are candidates for closer relationships. Some people have gotten close by working together on projects like our Food Pantry (food given away to people in need), Vestry (manages the church affairs), VBS (kids educational program) etc. We need the bigger groups to accomplish some goals and they do allow relationships to develop, but more intimate time is also needed to be close, at least for me.

1. Why do you not have special interests?
I do have special interests, but it's better to call them hobbies. I can pull myself away from them and are able to go lenghts of time without them.

2. What are these non-verbal cues you are perceiving? Explain them in detail for each social situation.
I can't really explain this. Let's just say my brain is wired to pick them up, so I don't have to. I just get a look or see a movement and I know what it means.
Although I daresay every NT misinterprets these once in a while.

3. Why do you spend so much time socializing?
I don't socialize that much. I have a small circle of friends who I see from time to time. But I need company because after a while it starts to get lonely. I can go without people for a while but not too long.

4. How do you know when people want to be your close friend if they do not explicitly say so?
It doesn't happen that way. You don't just go to people and say hey let's be friends. You are in social situations, get to talk with people and if you notice you have common interests or like hanging out, after a while you get closer. Friendship is formed even after that.

5. Why do you move your hands when you speak? Do you not feel your words and tone are sufficient?
To strengthen what we are saying.

6. Why do you feel the need to empathize with fictional characters? Are not only the facts of the story and concepts it attempts to convey important? The characters are not real people and do not require your empathy.
I don't feel the need, it just happens. I read a situation and think "that situation would suck/be awesome".

7. Why do you feel the need to "fit in" to a group?
Peer pressure, need to be accepted etc etc. It's not the need, it's, again, the brain. Although my brain laughs at this kind of behavior. I never did fin in.

8. Why do you all become so insecure in highschool such that you will do things you do not really want to do and say you like things that you do not really like?
Like the above, puberty, peer pressure, finding out who you are etc.

9. Why do you not write down your unspoken social rules for others? What makes you assume that others know them?
Because most of the people just know them. Writing such things down would be, no offense, a very aspie thing to do.

10. How do you know if someone really wishes to socialize with you or be your friend since many of you will act as a friend when friendship is not desired?
Someone who 'acts' as a friend does not act as a friend.

Janissy answered everything the way I would've, except for a few.

1. Why do you not have special interests?
I do, I just have trouble zoning out for long periods of time the way my AS boyfriend seem to be able to do.
I'm quite jealous of this apparent ability.
I think it's because ultimately I value things that can be validated by other people, so focusing too much on something that is only of interest to me seems a waste of time.
I'm not particularly proud of this and try to force myself to further develop my 'hobbies'.

2. What are these non-verbal cues you are perceiving? Explain them in detail for each social situation.
Right now the non-verbal cue I'm perceiving from you is extreme sarcasm!

4. How do you know when people want to be your close friend if they do not explicitly say so?
I actually get cautious when people I first meet seem to want to be close to me, because it can mean that they're trying to befriend me for completely selfish reasons - sex, job, money, etc.
Close friends happen through circumstance, through having similar interests, through knowing a lot of the same people (because people are sort of like interests in that you can talk about them), and through having lots of easy opportunities to 'go for coffee' and 'go for lunch' - food plays an important part in forming relationships I think.

6. Why do you feel the need to empathize with fictional characters? Are not only the facts of the story and concepts it attempts to convey important? The characters are not real people and do not require your empathy.
like Janissy says, it just happens.
It feels good to empathize because it helps me understand their situation more clearly.
No, facts and concepts aren't enough, because the feeling of being them is just as important as the thought of being them, to get the full picture.

9. Why do you not write down your unspoken social rules for others?
Like Janissy said, they're unspoken because they've been established over time within a NT culture.
I was born in asia and when I first moved to North America a lot of unspoken social rules were very very confusing, and it took me years to get caught up.

What makes you assume that others know them?
Until I met my boyfriend I didn't really have a deep connection to anyone that I obviously wasn't communicating well with.
I'd never learned about Aspergers.
I think NTs need more education and awareness on AS.

10. How do you know if someone really wishes to socialize with you or be your friend since many of you will act as a friend when friendship is not desired?
This is tricky for NTs too, and is the cause of much drama. Also, 'friend' is not some unbreakable bond.
If a person that you thought was a friend no longer seems to be around, it could be that their life has changed enough that they needed to move on.
Everybody changes. No hard feelings.

I think you are right to reverse the responsibility onto NTs. Especially when they don't say what they mean.

I think one golden rule should be: If you do not say exactly what you mean, you cannot expect anyone (NTs included) to do what you say.

I think it is very suspiscious that people do not say what they mean and instead use inuendo or figures of speech. If they do not say exactly what they mean then I think it means they do not really think it, or are not confident enough to say it. Therefor it should not be taken seriously.

That's unfair. Sometimes I don't have the words to say what I mean, but I can think of a similar situation to compare it to, for which I do have the words.

Also, what seems like obfuscation to you may be intended by the speaker to be clear as day.

All I can say is just remember that it was not your fault. At the time you thought you were doing the right thing. It is not your fault that you have been unable to perceive all sorts of social laws that have never been written down and are not often spoken about, and are not taught in childhood.

It is not your fault that your perception was not quick enough to pick up the myriad of little facial and signals that are buzzing around.

I guess all you can really do now is try and move on from the situation. Let go of any anger you have towards people who were involved and try and move towards new things.

Perhaps look for friends and acquaintances who are more tolerant and understanding of people with ASDs. At the very least dont think about those people who upset you anymore. Dont give them airtime in your head.

1. Why do you not have special interests?

I have very special interests that I have been pursuing all of my life. To not have a passion in life, one that is all consuming...a fire within that greatly amplifies your love of life...is to not live...but to merely exist.


2. What are these non-verbal cues you are perceiving? Explain them in detail for each social situation.

Non verbal cues are generally good for the short term. I, however, look at the actions of a person over a longer period. They really tell what the person is about. I generally take all that is said and all the non verbal cues at face value until I see discrepancies or contradictions from then and what I know of their life. I just am very conservative when meeting new people. I know that very little can be truly known from that meeting, and so, I try to mainly listen. I also listen for what should have been said and was not. It is often telling of their true nature. People often are guarded in language...verbal or otherwise. I don't look at the facades. Because of this, people think I am very shy...I am shy...but not to the extent people often think. I also don't agree with shallow talk...and so I don't engage in it. I usually throw some off by probing into a subject more deeply than they had originally thought the answer to be....but I want them to know that in a relationship adaptation of personalities goes both ways...and that I truly listen to the message that is given...and that I expect the same.


3. Why do you spend so much time socializing?

I do not...I never have. Now...deep conversations with a select few...yes. At work, I talk with a few about interesting subjects. Some stay away from me...as I don't allow them to get away with unsupported arguments. They get mad as they see this as a challenge or personal attack. I am merely attacking their idea..and not them. Some realize this...they are friends at work. I don't socialize at home. I am with my family. When they sleep (I stay up all night on my off days as I work nights), I Blog, post on forums, and game or watch movies. I don't wish to know many as they seem too shallow and insincere for me. A family man should concentrate on, and fully enjoy, his family.

4. How do you know when people want to be your close friend if they do not explicitly say so?

Just by being there and truly listening. By sharing of themselves in thought and action. I really don't have any close friends outside of work.

5. Why do you move your hands when you speak? Do you not feel your words and tone are sufficient?

When I talk, it is theater. Shakespearean actors are very expressive with their hands. I've always admired that. I want to give the same effect to those I speak with. Intonation and words alone are inefficient.

6. Why do you feel the need to empathize with fictional characters? Are not only the facts of the story and concepts it attempts to convey important? The characters are not real people and do not require your empathy.

I feel what the characters feel as they feel it. That is the fun of reading or watching a movie. You get to experience great adventures through mediums. I often use, what I see in a movie or in my mind as I read, to great effect in real life...and especially at work. I become a character that I greatly admire in certain situations. I try to add attributes of these characters to my life and so live it.

7. Why do you feel the need to "fit in" to a group?

I do not. I only wish to be around people that have the same attributes that I admire....compassion / kindness being chief ones. I don't wish to be around cruel people...in any form....many use words and manipulate situations in an attempt to humiliate others. I do not like those...and I let them know it.

8. Why do you all become so insecure in highschool such that you will do things you do not really want to do and say you like things that you do not really like?

I did not. I was just with a small group my early years...and then stayed to myself the later years. I've always enjoyed singular sports as opposed to team sports.

9. Why do you not write down your unspoken social rules for others? What makes you assume that others know them?

I operate on a level that all understand...even animals. I give kindness and basic respect to others. I love dogs because of their unfettered enthusiasm, loyalty and kindness. They generally respond well to me. I treat dogs and humans the same way....even the occasional knock on the snout should they growl at me...

10. How do you know if someone really wishes to socialize with you or be your friend since many of you will act as a friend when friendship is not desired?

I take a person's initial contact as one of being a fleeting moment. Only through time, or extraordinary circumstance, do I consider someone a friend. Friends are not, nor should they be, easily made. It should be someone you would risk your life for...and one that would do the same for you. It is difficult to enter in to those circumstances where this may be proven...and so the difficulty in finding true friendship.

I am NT. I am also different from many I have met in life...gladly so. There were only a few I truly wished to be around for great lengths of time. I try to give true friendship to those who are important to me.
I give basic human respect to all...but for a friendship to be special...it must be sacred to you and the other. They are otherwise...mere acquaintances. A friend is not to rely upon them....a true friend doesn't wish to burden his friends. A friend is not to dump all of your problems on to...to have to listen to your blather is to take advantage of him...unless it is to ask for his expertise to teach you how to overcome such situations...it is otherwise complaining to make yourself feel momentarily better at his expense. A friend you wish to help him improve himself as you do for yourself. You can be frank with him...help him overcome vices by helping him divert his compulsions to more healthful (mental and physical) activities. Both of you could trek life in a positive manner...helping each other to stay on a correct path in life....that is a friend.

there is something called tact that i think is lacking in some aspie communication, probably due to the literal or black and white thinking that is common for autistics. tact is not "not saying what you mean", but rather saying what you mean in a nice or subtle manner. its done to get your point across while preserving the feelings of the recipient. innuendo, figures of speech, expressions, they can all be used when trying to be tactful.

for instance, someone cuts in front of you at the movies, do you say, "you are cutting in line, we were here first, go the the back", or do you take the tactful approach and say, "perhaps you didnt see us but we were waiting in line already". the tactful approach would get the point across without being accusatory.

i once knew someone who had absolutely no tact at all. she wasnt autistic, but due to a medical condition she thought she had the right to tell people exactly what she thought all the time and didnt have to hold anything back. she was one of the meanest, most spiteful people ive ever met. she went beyond saying what she meant, she said everything she thought, and it ruined her friendships and romantic relationship.

thats an extreme example, but its what you can get if you go far measures to say exactly what you mean and do it in a blunt manner. using tact isnt being deceitful, its preserving the feelings and respect of the person you are talking to. its communication without accusation.

Me too...I also speak with a lot of inflection in my voice tone ....more so than the average person. I've had a few people think I was from another country because of this.

I guess my problem with superficial relationships is that I get bored with people. I don't enjoy talking for the sake of talking unless there's a mutual interest. Otherwise I run out of things to say and go silent. I do better with more intimate stuff because then I'm actually interested in the other person. I can't sit around listening to someone talk about how they want to decorate their house. I'll have no comments to add because I'm totally clueless and hardly care. It's this way with 90% of conversations. When the topic is superficial I'm only able to speak up once something comes up that I can actually relate to. It's awful because I know that I feel empty and lonely and unstimulated when I spend all my time by myself, yet when I do put myself around people I feel just as bored. I just get so jaded. I dont' know if this is depression or autism related. Perhaps it's both.

Yea, I've gone off topic but I don't care anymore because I'm jaded with staying on topic all the time.

Not sure why I feel like giving my own answers to this questions. I don't consider myself a proper NT (see my sig), and they were asked of NTs. Still, some of these things asked about are true of me.

My perspective... non autistics do often have special interests, but they tend to be less obsessive about them. Me, personally, music.



I know I'm sometimes good at non-verbals. I do wonder if there's also stuff I'm missing. But, even where I do pick up non-verbals, it's not something I can explain.

I do know, non-verbals include gestures, tone of voice, and facial expressions. Oh yeah, and body posture. But it's not like I'm aware of them enough on a conscious level to explain them.



I like people. I like interacting with others. But, in a safe environment. In a social environment where I feel comfortable. Thankfully, I've found some of those. Other social environments I tend to avoid. Or else I'm there for some other reason besides socializing (maybe a band I like is playing).



How they act. They show it. Although, I don't tend to look at it as a thing of someone wanting to be a close friend to someone else. Not most of the time. More, it develops over time and you recognize that they've become a close friend. I guess I see close friend as different than a hang-out buddy.



Because I'm part Italian. Not that I generally notice myself doing it. It doesn't come from a conscious place.



I don't feel a need. It's a desire, not a need. Because I can relate to them. Sometimes better than real people. I get to passively look into their world, without the risks of interacting. And fiction is often deeper than non fiction, as far as getting at people's emotions and such, than, say, a biography tends to be. I've learned a lot about people and relationships from fiction. (And also from music.) (And, yeah, I noted that earlier in the thread.)



Makes the whole connecting with other people easier. Makes it easier to develop friendships. By finding a group where I fit in, I have the time and space for friendships to develop.

I do not feel a need or desire to try to change myself to fit in with any group. But I do have a desire to have a place where I fit in. Where I can be myself, be natural, and be accepted. I have those places, and it's a good thing.



This is one of those things I don't get. I'd leave out that all.



Unspoken rules, either I get them, and thus don't have to think about them, or I don't get them and fun afoul of them, and to the extent I understand them, dislike them.

As far as assuming others understand the unspoken rules, that's because, experience says that others do. In fact, others understanding them too is what makes them unspoken rules. It's the understanding that this is how people act. And it can be really confusing when someone doesn't act that way.

And sometimes it's NTs (certain groups of them) who don't follow the unspoken rules that I know, and thus confuse me.



Sometimes, there's a certain falseness, a certain superficiality, when someone is being friendly, but it's an act. And I find that easy to pick up on. Harder is the difference between casual friendliness, and deeper friendliness. There, for me, it's time that shows which is which. Over time, with experience with the person, I learn what level of friendliness they want.