Aspie difficulties with NT music teacher

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My youngest daughter is having problems with her music teacher, who has been teaching her without any difficulties for a few years. Just suddenly, the last three weeks, the teacher is constantly finding faults in her playing and her homework. Between lessons we work hard on the faults and doing the homework, but at the next lesson the teacher launches off on new complaints about a completely different collection of faults. The teacher also asks "Why didn't you practice X?", to which my little one answers "I don't know", even though she did do the practice. All the complaints are made in the nicest, most polite way, which makes them even harder to understand because they aren't just snappiness or bad temper. My daughter at this point wants to give up music, even though her examination grades have been excellent and it has given her great pleasure.

I feel that I am not able to understand what is going on and I feel that the complaints are actually about something different than about my child and her music-playing - there is a change in the teacher's behaviour that maybe I am supposed to respond to, but the message is too subtle. I don't even know if the message is aimed at my youngest daughter, or at me, or at my (much older) other daughter who is friends with the teacher's daughter. From experience I think that asking outright what is wrong will probably make things worse.

Any suggestions on how to make things work out here? I don't want to change teachers, and her teaching has been good for a few years.

Last edited by StuartN on 22 Sep 2010, 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DON'T GIVE UP!! !! !! !! !! !

I AM a piano teacher, so I see it from a slightly different perspective.

As an aspie, I have no gift for subtlety, just what I've had to learn as someone who actually PLAYS piano. My observation of many piano teachers is they seldom actually perform, whereas I put myself out there and perform every chance I get, whether I'm playing elegant classical music for weddings, jazz/blues/New Age/easy listening for private parties and fundraisers, or Rock and Country with my own rock band or other one-nighter gigs. I've found steady work as a church pianist, and I seem to have gotten in the habit of taking up one new instrument a year! This year it's solo handbell ringing, which is really difficult. Even tougher is that my wife, who doesn't read music well, is ringing handbell duets with me, and I have to learn my part as well as hers to teach it to her. You want to put strain on a relationship? Involve a spouse in something you're "expert" at! We MOSTLY have fun, but because we can't keep up the same barriers that I normally have with other students, it doesn't take long for my own teaching inadequacies to catch up with me.

Anyway, I repeat: DON'T GIVE UP!! !!

Here's what I do with MY students: When they first come to me and know NOTHING about reading music or playing an instrument, I look at their age and overall aptitude and try, though subjectively, to gauge which type of method will work best for them. My first year teaching I used the Bastien method books, but I also spoke with much more experienced teachers about what helped them succeed. So my second year I switched to Faber. I don't like doing a lot of "extras" because I find it distracting, so at first I was really uncomfortable with some of the "baby" books. I changed my attitude as I started teaching 4 and 5-year olds. Anyone from 4 years through 1st grade will use the "baby" books (as I call them), which is a series of books designed to teach music and piano fundamentals through several games. The focus is less on reading music and more about just getting sound out of the keyboard and having fun along the way. There's one entire book dedicated just to reading "steps" on the staff and an entire book on "skips." When they finish those books, they go straight to Level 1. I try to move quickly without dwelling on absolute perfection as long as they are learning the essential concepts.

Now, if they are starting 1st grade through 3rd grade, which accounts for most of my students, I use the Primer, which is the same thing without the silly games and a little more condensed. I take the same approach with getting them through the book as quickly as possible provided they understand the material. I try to be gentle, and I smile a lot, whether I'm happy with how they're doing or not (I have to remind myself that I didn't always "get it," either, but my experience in learning piano was a LOT different than my students. I studied for a few months, quit halfway into Bastien Level 1, was self-taught for a while, and came back to piano for completely different reasons). I also try to give a lot of high-5's and words of encouragement. I get gruff when something isn't working, and excited when things are working. Students want to get everything right, and I believe a good teacher shares in the disappointments as well as the triumphs. Because we have another elementary music teacher where I teach piano, most kids learn to play keyboard by the time they enter middle school. So for my older students in 4th and 5th grade (and beyond) I actually use an adult or "older beginner" accelerated method, which reflects the ability of older students to pick up on things rather quickly. In theory, students who start earlier and take their time working through basic concepts should come out WAY ahead of older students who haven't paid their dues, but it always depends on the attitudes of the teacher, the student, and the parents.

Now, after we start Level 1, it's game on. I don't smile quite as much. I don't pour fourth quite so many words of encouragement. My emphasis is on the WORK of learning a musical instrument. I do things other teachers wouldn't DARE do, such as compare students. If a student does something that is truly awful, I will say so and I won't hold back. USUALLY what happens is the student starts building higher expectations of herself AND her teacher. When I find that the student understands where the notes are on the keyboard, is playing from notation (not memorizing or looking at her hands), I start to focus more on playing correct rhythms. When the rhythms are no longer a concern, I focus on dynamic shading. When the student masters dynamic contrast, I start teaching melodic phrasing. When they understand phrasing, I start giving them age and level appropriate literature that they might use for a recital. As they progress through each level, as they "age out" of a particular method, and as they learn difficult music, I give them even MORE difficult music. When I'm confident that they've reached a competent level of musicianship, I teach them how to interpret lead sheets. When they can interpret lead sheets, I'll teach them how to interpret LYRIC sheets. When they master lyric sheets, I have them memorize common chord progressions in all keys. When they can do that, I teach them to play by ear...

And I never, EVER ease up. The student is striving for perfection. The difficulty is there is no such thing as "true" perfection. If a student is able to play each note perfectly and each rhythm perfectly, observes all dynamics and expression, all tempo variations, then I'll suggest new ways of interpreting a piece (assuming I'll ever have a student that advanced! It hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for it. I have ONE who is right on the edge, and I have to figure out how to push him over that line). I can't ease up on them because that shows I'm willing to lower my standard and expectations. And that is no way to teach a child anything. If a parent ever approaches me with "concerns" that I'm being to hard on a student, that's my first (and best) warning sign that I'm about to lose them. It's also insulting. What I will do is comply long enough to get through a school year. But the next year I might "oops" forget to sign that child back up for piano or "oops" run out of room in my studio or "oops" have a scheduling conflict that makes it impossible for me to teach that kid. If they are persistent enough, I might "work something out," but my teaching is on MY terms, not theirs, and a parent who insists this is a case of "the customer is always right" is a waste of my time. Yes, I WILL hold grudges. But it's nothing that I'm taking out on the kid. It's usually the parents that inspire inward rage within me. When I raise my voice at a child, I do it because I want their blood boiling and because I want to inspire whatever emotions I can get out of them to strengthen their resolve and operate at their full potential. It's all an act, and it's extremely rare for me to become genuinely angry at a child. Impatient? All the time, but that's not the driving force behind my teaching.

If you were my student, this is what you would NOT want to hear after your first year of piano: "Wow, Johnny, that was nice! Yeah! I like that! Play that part again...good... Excellent! OK, turn the page..." If that's all the teaching you get from me, you can rest assured know that I've given up on you and am just holding out until I see some REAL potential. Some kids just take longer than others, and I recognize that.

One student of mine that I've had for nearly two years is nearing the end of Level 1 (she started with Bastien, and I see no reason to change methods at this time), which has happened in a considerably short amount of time compared with my other students. Our lessons go something like this: "That was GREAT! Good job. Now, how about this one? NO! Wrong note! NO! Check your fingering. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Great. Now play this. OK. Now how about this? It's the same as the other, right? OK. Good. Play it again. Again. NO! How many times have I told you, CHECK YOUR FINGERING!! !! What is wrong with you? Leave your brain at school? At home? This isn't Cartoon Network! Come on! Get your head in the game, here! Again. Again. Again. AAAAAARGH!! !! !! Again. Good. Again. Again. Great. OK, let's move on..." Now, if it's something that's giving the student a really tough time and we end up spending 15 minutes (half the lesson) on a single exercise, I'll say "OK, good. Now take your hands off the keyboard and relax a bit," and then I'll tell a story about when I studied composition at Crane and whatever moral lesson applies at the moment. Oh yeah, and that's just what happens in my evening lessons when I actually have parents in the room with me!

Like I said, I have no gift for subtlety like other kinder and gentler piano teachers. But I also tend to get REALLY hyper and worked up when a student really is doing well and I can see that she's working hard, practicing, and making progress. With MOST students, I wonder whether I should take a Valium a half hour before they show! But I also take the time to let them know that I'm not just pushing them hard because I want them to be amazing piano players. I let them know that I bark at them, not because I'm disappointed in them, but because I'm in the trenches with them fighting the same battles and the same frustrations and anxieties that they are experiencing. I also take the time to encourage them because I share in their triumphs as well as their failures. I let them know that school and piano lessons shield them a lot from the problems of adult life, and I tell them when they are long gone from my studio to remember everything we talked about behind closed doors and on the bench. I see myself more as a sideline coach, but I'm also a cheerleader. I've also had the privilege of working with deeply disturbed children, and I think my style of teaching has been most valuable to them. I noticed that as long as one particular child came to piano lessons every week, she was on her best behavior at school. But the FIRST time I have a sick child to care for and have to take a day (HER day) off from teaching, she'd be in the principal's office and then be sent home herself for a week because of whatever meltdown she had that put her at odds with a teacher. She ended up moving to a different school, so there's no longer any way I can help her. But not one day passes that I don't think about her and worry if she's making some other self-destructive decision.

Not all piano teachers are like me, obviously, and for all I know that's a GOOD thing!! !

I think what is happening with your child and the piano teacher in question is probably more an issue of raising expectations. Music (and piano) is HARD. Piano teachers, regardless of whether they are strict, mean disciplinarians like myself or whether they are the sweet, motherly babysitter types, have two main things to worry about when they teach. First, they want to see the child succeed and make progress, which means stepping up the game and maintaining high performance standards at all times. This means that NOTHING will EVER be right. But that's a GOOD thing because it means that the teacher knows what he or she is doing and is working hard to teach the intricacies of classical music. Second, all teachers who do this as a main source of income are concerned about their reputation. They know your child won't be with them forever. So do recitals show that the teachers knows how to bring the best out of each and every student, or do they indicate that the teacher doesn't really care and is content with students playing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" for the rest of their lives? I'm still fairly new to teaching piano privately, so when I DO host a recital, I only want parents seeing the best side of me and my students. That encourages others to trust my work because I believe in myself, the children trust me, and the parents trust me. I'm guessing that what is happening is your child really is good at music and the teacher is just trying to stretch that ability. The problem, as it always is with music, is that it is a LOT OF WORK. It's never easy, and it's never perfect.

My experience has shown me that most children take lessons because someone "cool" takes piano or because it seems like something that is easy and exciting at the moment they are exposed to it. They don't see that it takes YEARS of diligent study and practice to really be good at it. The question I ask myself all the time is "why is piano easy for me?" Well, the answer is I've been doing this for nearly 20 years now. Of COURSE it's easy. So my goal is to rush kids through the basics so I can start imparting those little "secrets" of what made piano easier for me than it was for kids my age who'd been playing much longer but never quite made it to the same level of playing. I did certain things after I quit lessons between 5th and 8th grade that bypassed a lot of the steps most piano teachers (including myself) require students to take. At a certain point, you just have to throw out "the book" and be straight with students. But even then it's still a difficult process. Learning new music is STILL difficult for me--the only difference between me now and me then is a mature sense of musicianship culminating in a Master's degree that helps me understand the what's and why's of music (i.e. not EVERYTHING should sound or feel like 80's metal, though I often wish it did!). It's this very difficult bridge students have to cross when piano is no longer "cool" or "easy" that they begin to lose interest. I let my students know that I'm willing to teach them the "cool" stuff, but they have to pay their dues first just like I did and even continue to do. Without a work ethic, things like playing by ear, improvising, and composing are WORTHLESS.

Kids don't want to WORK. When they face those growing pains of having to actually WORK at music or playing an instrument, they'd rather just give up. DON'T FALL FOR IT. MAKE THEM continue their lessons through that difficult middle school transition period and they will eventually come back around.

Last story: This year I had a child who was a little slow at learning piano, but NOT a BAD kid or even a bad piano student. He's in 3rd grade now, and I really had high hopes for him. Over the summer, his mother asked him whether he wanted to stay in piano or not. He said "No," which is funny because even his mother admits he's never complained about it. She told me that since he's in 3rd grade, she wants to let him make his own decisions. I just smiled my usual public plastic smile (for me it's an aspie thing) and said "good luck and let me know if you change your mind. I'll hold a spot open for him!" Behind my fake smile, I'm thinking "Making his own decisions, huh? Are you going to give him a beer and a cigarette when you get home? His first motorcycle? Perhaps you'll give him the keys to your car and tell him to go hang out with his other 3rd grade friends, maybe even take them for a joy ride!" If you want to see your child be successful at the piano, stay firm. I worry that this generation of parents is raising a generation of quitters. It wasn't always like this!

I repeat, STAY FIRM. The students who do stick with me know full well how mean I am. But they LOVE music and the instrument. Their parents are attracted to my "never give up" attitude. Somehow I attract all the weird and troubled kids, but I'm also proud to say my students also include a few athletic or cheerleader types. If I have something to offer them, then I have no need to be ashamed of my approach. Don't let your teacher's perfectionist endeavors weigh you down. There's much more to gain in the long run. But don't think that some big, miraculous change is going to happen in a year. These things take time, and LOTS OF IT. It's taken me two college degrees and nearly 20 years of musicianship to even BEGIN to understand the bigger picture of what I do. I don't mind saying that there won't even be a discussion of whether my own children study musical instruments, preferably piano, guitar, and possibly something like violin or clarinet. They WILL learn piano and hopefully a solo instrument, and it's probably best that I DON'T teach my son!! ! My daughter is, well, different, and she could probably handle me as her teacher AND someone she has to live with. As long as you stick with it, eventually this lack of interest or frustration will pass.

Now, if there really is a problem with the piano teacher, then you'll have to decide whether to change teachers. The problem is that another teacher will be completely unfamiliar with what your child has learned already. You'll need to figure out if there's another teacher who uses the same method books and is really experienced and knowledgeable about it. What will happen if there is too sharp a contrast in methodology, the student will have too difficult a time adjusting to a new teacher, which will send any interest spiraling downward. They never get caught up. I have yet to take on another teacher's garbage and actually KEEP that student longer than a year. I'm tempted to turn away any student who has taken lesson from another teacher because of that fact and because I'm not interested in wasting time with students (really, parents) who have a demonstrated lack of commitment. I'm sure there can be exceptions, and I don't have decades of teaching experience (yet), but I haven't found that yet!

Good luck to you, and please keep us posted on how things are going. I don't know your full situation, but if you like, feel free to PM me and I'll offer any help I can.

I appreciate your reply, and the need for continuous practice and critical feedback, but I feel that there is something different happening here that is completely separate from my daughter's music-playing. My daughter has a straight-A exam record for the last few years, and works hard. The constant stream of negative criticism seems to be a message about something entirely different, and is a change in behaviour over the last three weeks. In particular, the criticism is excessively harsh, it is confrontational, the tone is over-polite, meeting the criticism is not recognised and there is no continuity to any one aspect of criticism.

Because of my own social difficulties, I am unable to work out what the message is. It could be directed at my daughter for some perceived or real transgression, or at me because she feels that I have offended her, or at my older daughter who socialises with the teacher's daughter.

My question is, when people speak in these convoluted ways, how am I to make sense of it and deal with it? How do I find out what has upset the teacher? Ideally I would like to continue with the same teacher, who has been good up until now.

The "no continuity" aspect concerns me. I probably AM excessively harsh and confrontational, but I just simply don't believe in babying students. If you're my student and you can take the "abuse," you're probably mentally disciplined enough and have high enough an aptitude that you'll stay dedicated to the instrument and end up with a real future in music.

We piano teachers are famous for being over-polite. You and I are in the same boat in that we don't know how to read people, nor do we understand how to tailor our responses to others who are "just trying to be nice." I don't enjoy being yelled at. Just be straight with me.

I did learn a few good lessons after college, one of those being "you can always loosen up, but you can never tighten up." The point is instruction has to be unforgiving from the outset (I do, however, take into account the age of my students. I got really short with a 4-year old last week, but I had to remind myself that I've never taught that age before and that I need to ease up). As students edge so much more closely to an objective, a teacher can always relax a little. The teachers I had that I respected the most, like one of my composition professors who studied at Eastman, were the ones who could completely break my former self down and help me see that I really needed to learn new things or take different directions. As I progressed, the tone got much more relaxed closer to the end of the semester. I'm not very good at implementing that in my own teaching because I never really loosen up. Pretty much the rule is if I loosen up on you, I've given up and don't really expect to see you next school year.

Well, it sounds mainly like you're dealing with someone that you just don't know how to read. And it could very well be something is going on your piano teacher doesn't want to tell you.

How about we get into more specifics? What precisely has the music teacher said? How is it excessively harsh? Music lessons are inherently confrontational, but how do you see this as being a problem? When my students meet my criticism, I give them a quick "good job" and then move on to other problems that need to be addressed--I tend to never linger on complements. Do you feel that we are more deserving of the "great jobs" or stickers/rewards than we get (I tend not to reward. It's nothing personal, but it's something that I struggle at doing with any degree of sincerity. If I'm mean, I'm mean, but at least my students don't get the sense that I'm being fake)?

Your daughter has gotten straight-A exam records, you say. I assume you're talking about some kind of piano festival or juried/rated performance. In most cases, ratings festivals are designed to encourage students to continually improve and give expert feedback. Other than helping teachers be better teachers and giving piano students a way to network with and hear other piano students, they don't tend to reveal much of substance. It depends, of course, on the exams or juries. If we are only being rated at a certain level, we can get straight-A's many years in a row and still not be proficient enough to perform in University. I'm not saying that's YOUR situation, but there are a lot of things like that out there which have little more purpose than to keep students motivated. I'd like to know more about the kinds of exams your daughter is taking and what relation that has to her actual playing. I'm sure she's quite good! I'm just trying to make sense of what you're going through so I can give better advice.

Tell this to the teacher. It will prod the teacher to explain what has gone wrong.

I think this is true, but I am worried that it could equally cause total destruction of the relationship. My feeling is that the criticism etc is a proxy behaviour through which the teacher is expressing displeasure with something else - and possibly not related directly to my youngest daughter, but displeasure with another member of the family. I think that most people would pick up on these cues without trouble, but I don't follow them well.



My feeling is that this is an autistic / non-autistic communication issue, not a music tuition issue.

I understand that. I'm just saying if I know more about what exactly has been said, perhaps I can attempt to translate and see if maybe there really is a problem. There may not be, or it might be something that's just passing.

I've actually spent more time studying clarinet than piano, and "through no fault of my own" just landed here doing the piano thing. My first university clarinet teacher was absolutely HORRIBLE in the way she treated me and certain other students. I was glad when she went away. But on the other hand, she was also pregnant at the time and thus probably really didn't feel like being patient with ANYONE. No excuse, though, but I have two kids of my own and was with my wife every step of the way. I see both sides of it. We want to try to distinguish between what a teachers says and what the same teacher REALLY says. What do other parents have to say? Is the same thing happening with them? You said the change was abrupt, in the last three weeks. Is the teacher REALLY being so harsh, or is it a matter of switching gears, adjusting methodologies to cull the "goats from the sheep," so to speak? It sounds to me you don't understand if it really is about instruction or if it's something personal. If it's something personal, get a new teacher! I'm very interested in knowing more details in what is going on. It could be that I agree with you.

I hear you. After we stopped playing games around third grade, my music teacher turned into a b***h as well. We never played instruments until late middle school becuase the school was basicaly a "little hick" school.

Maybe the instructor is going through difficult times. Or, maybe your daughter plays just fine but the instructor feels she has potential she is not utilizing. Or, maybe she feels your daughter should be advancing faster by now.

Or, maybe she's frustrated by a lack of close friendship between you two.

It's hard to say. Being your older daughter is friends with her daughter, maybe you should ask her out for coffee or lunch as a friend and if there is something going on in her life, she might tell you, or you can ask her how she thinks your daughter's musical skills are progressing and then if she has an issue with that she might tell you.

I have heard from someone else that this is most likely - something in her personal life about three weeks ago, involving her own daughter.

I am still not sure how to respond - I assume that the general snarkiness is intended to get some response, but I have no idea what people want when they do things this way. I don't want to commiserate over the personal issue if she hasn't raised it herself.