Polygraph (a device detecting deception) and AS

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outlander
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07 Sep 2007, 11:04 pm

GoatMan wrote:
Another fun idea to consider is that the FBI and similar professional agencies in up to 52 countries use a system called SNAP (Strategic, Non-invasive Analysis and Profile), which focuses on both eye contact and analytical questions meant to detect certain indicators of lying (such as giving convoluted answers as how a person would hypothetically steal something, or a defensive versus offensive response to an accusation, etc).


I have encountered the same technique under the name Kinesic Interrogation. A friend of mine was held at gun point during a robbery and had his truck stolen as a getaway vehicle and run into a ditch. The police detective in charge (Whose on-line resume boasts of his credentials in kinesic interrogation) accused him of being an inside accomplice and lying. The only thing that this Barney Fife type seemed to have missed is that my friend has been almost totally deaf since birth. The reason he was not looking the detective in the eye is that he was focusing on reading his lips ! !!

There are many fine police personnel out there, but the problem is that all too often they protect the dumb cops among them and the dumb cops are too stupid to ever doubt their own overblown sense of infallibility.

The whole matter of reading body language requires an understanding of the background and upbringing of the person being interrogated. Looking someone of authority in the eye is considered a sign of deep disrespect in many cultures, not one of lying.

I am a bit fired up over this one because I have often had the problem of being misread and even told to my face that I was lying. Those people who declare "I can always tell when someone is lying" are basically ignorant ! It is my own opinion that attempting to read the body language of any aspie is highly prone to failure. Would anyone think That looking for the normal clues to behavior that they could read the intent of someone with full blown autism? The problem for an aspie would then be being mistaken for a neurotypical. At least a Vietnamese in the US would be recognized as being culturally different! rant rant rant :x :x :x


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08 Sep 2007, 12:27 am

Polygraphs are crap. That's where the story ends. :roll:


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marshall
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08 Sep 2007, 2:24 am

Even if I intended to only tell the truth I probably wouldn't pass. I think just the fear of a false positive would cause my heart rate to go up and so I wouldn't pass.

I personally think the whole point of a polygraph test is to intimidate the subject and extract information. The more nervous the subject is that they can be caught lying the less likely they will make stuff up. If they do they're probably more likely to mess up their story because they're nervous. Whether the results of the test are positive or negative isn't that important since it can't be used as evidence anyways.



0_equals_true
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08 Sep 2007, 11:11 am

Funny you said this because I always thought I would fail it regardless of the questions. The reason being is something’s I can feel guilty even though I'm telling the truth. Going through customs I often feel I have something to hide when I don’t.



0_equals_true
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08 Sep 2007, 11:12 am

marshall wrote:
Even if I intended to only tell the truth I probably wouldn't pass. I think just the fear of a false positive would cause my heart rate to go up and so I wouldn't pass.

I personally think the whole point of a polygraph test is to intimidate the subject and extract information. The more nervous the subject is that they can be caught lying the less likely they will make stuff up. If they do they're probably more likely to mess up their story because they're nervous. Whether the results of the test are positive or negative isn't that important since it can't be used as evidence anyways.

It can't in the UK but I heard some state isn the US do use it.



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08 Sep 2007, 12:00 pm

I've beaten the polygraph before. Soon after the Columbine incident I got in trouble at school for a message that was found on my computer. It was a collaborative effort but I did help write part of it. I was in deep trouble though. My parents had me take a polygraph test about the incident. I asked my parents how the polygraph test was supposed to work. They told me it had to do with heartrate. Once I knew that I made a concerted effort to control my heartrate during the test. And I beat it. 8)

Although I do admit I was really nervous waiting for the results.


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marshall
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08 Sep 2007, 2:49 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
It can't in the UK but I heard some state isn the US do use it.


My impression was that most states require the person to agree to take it. In that case, I wouldn't be surprised if prosecuters were able to use things the person said during the test against the person in court. I would be pretty shocked if they were allowed to tell the jury the results of the test though. That would be unjust IMO.



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17 Feb 2008, 6:40 am

UM..

this would be a great experiement

MAybe I should endeavour

:P

haha

because aspergers People are honest no?

.. hmm...


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old_badger
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20 Feb 2013, 5:21 pm

Prof_Pretorius wrote:
I applied for a job once where I was required to undergo a polygraph examination prior to being hired. It was awful. As he was hooking up all the contacts and wires, the chap administering the test was all jokey and friendly. BUT as soon as he switched it on, he acted like J. Edgar Hoover trying to get a confession out of John Dillenger ! !! I paniced, "wot's this, I'm applying for a job, not accused of stealing something ! !!" He acted very angry, and accusatory, and I got quite defensive, and the test was an utter waste of time. I purposely breathed faster and then slower to screw it up. I also tried thinking scary thoughts when he asked questions like "are the walls painted brown?" I found I could make the needles scratch furiously just by concentrating. He got flustered and declared I was the type of liar who mixed truth with lies, and that's the most dangerous type ! !! It was at that point I had difficulty not doing my Exorcist impression ! !! (Yer muther performs perverted acts in HELL ! ! )
A great bloody waste of everybody's time. I was as honest as the day is long ....
I think it's now illegal for an employer to put a prospective employee through such a routine...



My guess would be that the ability to manage stimuli would create an ever increasing physical reaction.

Doing that to a person with AS, and then attacking that person as described here, could be a violation of the ADA.



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20 Feb 2013, 6:46 pm

Prof_Pretorius wrote:
I applied for a job once where I was required to undergo a polygraph examination prior to being hired. It was awful. As he was hooking up all the contacts and wires, the chap administering the test was all jokey and friendly. BUT as soon as he switched it on, he acted like J. Edgar Hoover trying to get a confession out of John Dillenger ! !! I paniced, "wot's this, I'm applying for a job, not accused of stealing something ! !!" He acted very angry, and accusatory, and I got quite defensive, and the test was an utter waste of time. I purposely breathed faster and then slower to screw it up. I also tried thinking scary thoughts when he asked questions like "are the walls painted brown?" I found I could make the needles scratch furiously just by concentrating. He got flustered and declared I was the type of liar who mixed truth with lies, and that's the most dangerous type ! !! It was at that point I had difficulty not doing my Exorcist impression ! !! (Yer muther performs perverted acts in HELL ! ! )
A great bloody waste of everybody's time. I was as honest as the day is long ....
I think it's now illegal for an employer to put a prospective employee through such a routine...


What a story! Love it. You are hilarious. Thanks for sharing that. :D


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whirlingmind
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20 Feb 2013, 6:52 pm

GoatMan wrote:
giving convoluted answers as how a person would hypothetically steal something


God, if that was a reason to be thought lying most Aspies would fail then!


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outlander
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20 Feb 2013, 10:03 pm

whirlingmind in her signature line wrote:
*Truth fears no trial*
Presumably Truth has not met a corrupt cop, a coniving prosecutor bent on making a name for himself and a judge that does not mind the other two twisting words and the law for their own ends.

Alas, I have met the first two and am well aware of the 3rd sort. But I survived ....... so far.


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whirlingmind
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21 Feb 2013, 5:31 am

Funnily enough, I am currently dealing with a public body who has lied in writing. I'm therefore no stranger to this type of official underhandedness. However, truth may still not fear it, it may become victim to it yes, but it will still hold true to itself and nothing they do can change that. This is why it fears no trial.


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eric76
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21 Feb 2013, 7:20 am

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
Here in the US, it is illegal for an employer to administer a polygraph test to potential employees.
In Massachusetts, California, Illnois, Ohio, New York, and Oregon, whoever is administering the polygraph test can be arrested for a misdomeanor and be fined up to $100,000.
In Texas, Missouri, and Florida, however, the administrator of that test will be fired immediately and be fined said $100,000.


I've heard that multiple lie detector tests for employment at places like the NSA are the rule.



eric76
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21 Feb 2013, 7:23 am

In the mid 1970s, I thought about applying for a job at a convenience store. The store was really short of help at the time.

I knew the manager of the store fairly well and he said not to bother -- that the new guy who administered the polygraphs was flunking every applicant they had. He said it had been several months since they were able to hire anyone at all.



outlander
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21 Feb 2013, 7:46 am

whirlingmind wrote:
Funnily enough, I am currently dealing with a public body who has lied in writing. I'm therefore no stranger to this type of official underhandedness. However truth may still not fear it, it may become victim to it yes, but it will still hold true to itself and nothing they do can change that. This is why it fears no trial.
Very well said. "Truth" has character. It is sad when we have to deal with such officials, sad in the sense that such people are the officials. Unfortunately such people are drawn to such positions. For this reason government ought to be as limited as possible with as little power as possible. One characteristic often cited as being common among aspies is an inherent mistrust of authority figures. It is a characteristic that is all too often justified by officials. Best wishes in your struggle with them.


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