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At those of you with an ASD: Are you male or female?
I am female. 62%  62%  [ 36 ]
I am male. 38%  38%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 58

Sylvastor
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09 Jan 2013, 10:34 pm

Most of you probably know the theory of ASD being more common in men because testosterone could trigger that and that theory also says that women and men with ASD most likely have it, because when they were still developing in the mother's womb, they had a higher dosage of testosterone than it should normally be (for whatever reason).
I don't have the statistics in mind anymore concerning the ratio women:men with autism.

My first question would be:
What are your thoughts on that theory?

My second question would be:
Could this "overdose" be a reason why people with autism tend to struggle with their gender identity, or are homosexual, bisexual or asexual more often than NTs?
(This is by no means meant in a negative way, but to me it seems like people with ASD tend to be one of the above more often than NTs, of course I can be terribly mistaken as well.)

Now, the testosterone-theory trying to explain the correlation of ASD and gender doesn't sound all that unplausible, but since I have been browsing these forums, I have been asking myself if that could really be correct.
I know this forum is not a very meaningful source as not all autists in the world are registered here, but if I take a look around, it doesn't really seem to me as if there are just a few women and many men, it seems pretty balanced out from my point of view (once again, this is how I perceived it so far, I could be mistaken).

I am not all that familiar with differences of women with an ASD and men with an ASD concerning the most common symptoms, but women (in general) usually tend to be more emotional than men and in one of Tony Attwood's books I read that women with ASD also tend to be more able to mask that than men, so they are just perceived as introverted, shy or things alike.
Could it be that most of them are just not being recognized as autists and there are actually about just as many women as men with ASD? Recognizing an ASD is not always easy after all, especially if the person developed tactics to hide it.

My third question is:
What is your point of view on that possibility?

And my fourth question is:
If you think that it could be quite balanced but women just tend to be less often diagnosed, do you think there should be individual diagnosis criteria for both genders?
(As far as I'm concerned they are the same for both, men and women after all - or am I wrong?)

Of course, answering the questions is absolutely optional, you are not forced to answer any of those if you don't want to.


Because I was curious, I have made a poll with the question whether you are male or female, just to get an idea if my perception of the representation of both genders (at least on this forum) is somewhat right or absolutely wrong.
You are allowed vote if you are suspected to have an ASD or are self-diagnosed, of course.


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Ashley-Yin
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10 Jan 2013, 2:51 am

My response to all the questions is...

Most of the studies are flawed by assumptions that there is only male or female, they need to factor in that Trans/Intersex people such as myself are Trans/Intersex based on neurological and/or physical differances just the same as
Autistics and NT's... just fundementals of being human.

They wont find a cure for Autism because there is no cause beyond what we tell them.


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Dreycrux
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10 Jan 2013, 3:19 am

I just believe women tend to be naturally social, interested in social and interpersonal issues...hence less women being diagnosed?

Is it wrong to think this?



Raziel
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10 Jan 2013, 3:44 am

I'm somewere on the autism spectrum and I'm (female-to-male) transgender.


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Verdandi
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10 Jan 2013, 3:51 am

Dreycrux wrote:
I just believe women tend to be naturally social, interested in social and interpersonal issues...hence less women being diagnosed?

Is it wrong to think this?


Probably. Women are socialized to be more social and interested in social and interpersonal issues. There's a lot of social pressure growing up and even as an adult to conform to this standard, and is one of the contributing factors to my perception of myself as agender.



chaotik_lord
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10 Jan 2013, 3:59 am

I do think that there is something there. One of the earliest emotions that was not native to me that I learned was embarrassment. I was in an all-boys preschool class (although I didn't know I wasn't one then) and I kept saying ridiculous things; my first official memory of embarrassment as a concept was the shouting of the word "blood!" at three. They made me the weirdo from that moment. Oh, well. But then I hit kindergarten and they sent me off with the girls, who promptly declared that I didn't belong because "You're not one of us." I tried to go back to the boys, but they rejected me as well (but far more logically?). Boys seemed more natural. I think that the trans and autistic journeys can dovetail, yes. I wish the Asperger's/Autistic diagnoses were better understood in my youth. There are so many complications: I am trans, but am not lying when I say male. But I can't lie. So explain that to my insurance company!



League_Girl
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10 Jan 2013, 4:07 am

I'm female. Not transgender.


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whirlingmind
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10 Jan 2013, 6:19 am

Sylvastor wrote:
Most of you probably know the theory of ASD being more common in men because testosterone could trigger that and that theory also says that women and men with ASD most likely have it, because when they were still developing in the mother's womb, they had a higher dosage of testosterone than it should normally be (for whatever reason).
I don't have the statistics in mind anymore concerning the ratio women:men with autism.

My first question would be:
What are your thoughts on that theory?

My second question would be:
Could this "overdose" be a reason why people with autism tend to struggle with their gender identity, or are homosexual, bisexual or asexual more often than NTs?
(This is by no means meant in a negative way, but to me it seems like people with ASD tend to be one of the above more often than NTs, of course I can be terribly mistaken as well.)

Now, the testosterone-theory trying to explain the correlation of ASD and gender doesn't sound all that unplausible, but since I have been browsing these forums, I have been asking myself if that could really be correct.
I know this forum is not a very meaningful source as not all autists in the world are registered here, but if I take a look around, it doesn't really seem to me as if there are just a few women and many men, it seems pretty balanced out from my point of view (once again, this is how I perceived it so far, I could be mistaken).

I am not all that familiar with differences of women with an ASD and men with an ASD concerning the most common symptoms, but women (in general) usually tend to be more emotional than men and in one of Tony Attwood's books I read that women with ASD also tend to be more able to mask that than men, so they are just perceived as introverted, shy or things alike.
Could it be that most of them are just not being recognized as autists and there are actually about just as many women as men with ASD? Recognizing an ASD is not always easy after all, especially if the person developed tactics to hide it.

My third question is:
What is your point of view on that possibility?

And my fourth question is:
If you think that it could be quite balanced but women just tend to be less often diagnosed, do you think there should be individual diagnosis criteria for both genders?
(As far as I'm concerned they are the same for both, men and women after all - or am I wrong?)

Of course, answering the questions is absolutely optional, you are not forced to answer any of those if you don't want to.


Because I was curious, I have made a poll with the question whether you are male or female, just to get an idea if my perception of the representation of both genders (at least on this forum) is somewhat right or absolutely wrong.
You are allowed vote if you are suspected to have an ASD or are self-diagnosed, of course.


I do believe there is something in the extreme male brain theory, however I don't know exactly what or how much. I am very feminine looking and identify fully as a female. however I come out on the Bem Questionnaire as almost at the masculine side of androgynous, and I have often felt I think like a man in many ways.

I believe the only reason there are less women diagnosed is that they haven't done the research on women. I think there are just as many autistic women as men out there. Some of the differences are starting to be realised but the message isn't getting through to the clinicians.

I personally don't feel more social than the portrayal of male Aspies, I think it's just that the social pressure is higher on females but that doesn't mean we conform to it.

I don't know whether there should be separate diagnostic criteria but they definitely need to incorporate research on women into the criteria.


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Anomiel
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10 Jan 2013, 6:29 am

Sylvastor wrote:
Most of you probably know the theory of ASD being more common in men because testosterone could trigger that and that theory also says that women and men with ASD most likely have it, because when they were still developing in the mother's womb, they had a higher dosage of testosterone than it should normally be (for whatever reason).
I don't have the statistics in mind anymore concerning the ratio women:men with autism.

My first question would be:
What are your thoughts on that theory?


That it's just speculation and as far as I know they've never measured elevated testosterone levels in significant enough portion (if they've done such study at all) in mothers to aspies.

Sylvastor wrote:
My second question would be:
Could this "overdose" be a reason why people with autism tend to struggle with their gender identity, or are homosexual, bisexual or asexual more often than NTs?
(This is by no means meant in a negative way, but to me it seems like people with ASD tend to be one of the above more often than NTs, of course I can be terribly mistaken as well.)


No. I think there are more queer ASD people than in the NT population, but I don't think it has to do with hormones.

Sylvastor wrote:
And my fourth question is:
If you think that it could be quite balanced but women just tend to be less often diagnosed, do you think there should be individual diagnosis criteria for both genders?
(As far as I'm concerned they are the same for both, men and women after all - or am I wrong?)


No, but the criteria should be expanded to include persons (of every gender) that have developed coping mechanisms. Right now the focus is too much on unsocialized boys completely lacking in coping mechanisms as the true face of autism. NT children behave very differently from adult NTs too.
The lack of diagnosis for women is often from plain old sexism.

Sylvastor wrote:
Because I was curious, I have made a poll with the question whether you are male or female, just to get an idea if my perception of the representation of both genders (at least on this forum) is somewhat right or absolutely wrong.
You are allowed vote if you are suspected to have an ASD or are self-diagnosed, of course.


You should have included at least one other option. Also, remember that you wont reach every member of this forum either so the results may be skewed.



Sylvastor
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10 Jan 2013, 7:11 am

It is quite interesting to see I'm not the only one thinking that the research done may very well be flawed or one-sided and that it would need more focus on certain other aspects. I held back my opinions on the topic because I didn't want to influence your answers, but I guess I'll comment on it too now.

The fact that the diagnosis is often left out could have to do with the very core of the discovery of autism. As far as I know, the "testing subjects" were usually always male children. Even Hans Asperger studied four boys. That way the focus was probably put too much on the child-age/"original" status (of Asperger-autists at least) and the male gender, in other words:

whirlingwind wrote:
I believe the only reason there are less women diagnosed is that they haven't done the research on women. I think there are just as many autistic women as men out there. Some of the differences are starting to be realised but the message isn't getting through to the clinicians.

I personally don't feel more social than the portrayal of male Aspies, I think it's just that the social pressure is higher on females but that doesn't mean we conform to it.

Social pressure could be another factor contributing to the lack of diagnosis of women. Experts definitely should expand their horizon.
Anomiel wrote:
That it's just speculation and as far as I know they've never measured elevated testosterone levels in significant enough portion (if they've done such study at all) in mothers to aspies.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a theory based on speculations and I'm also aware that if it would apply, it would probabaly be just one of many factors contributing to the riddle that is autism.
To prove the theory, every pregnant woman would have to get her hormones tested on a regular basis and it would have to be logged whether the child is autistic or not years later. The theory says, it can be at some point in the development of the child that it gets too much testosterone, but it has been never mentioned when exactly that could be.

Anomiel wrote:
You should have included at least one other option. Also, remember that you wont reach every member of this forum either so the results may be skewed.

Yeah, I noticed and I am also aware of the fact that the results may be not very exact and that they are not representative for the autism community in general.
I played with the thought of including a male-to-female transgender and female-to-male transgender option, however, I can't edit the poll anymore when a vote was cast.

Sorry, about that to those of you who feel left out... :(
In case someone is transgender and not sure what to vote in the poll, I think it would be logical to vote the original physical gender. Next time I'll make a poll like this, I'll include such options as well!


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Anomiel
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10 Jan 2013, 7:42 am

Sylvastor wrote:
The fact that the diagnosis is often left out could have to do with the very core of the discovery of autism. As far as I know, the "testing subjects" were usually always male children. Even Hans Asperger studied four boys. That way the focus was probably put too much on the child-age/"original" status (of Asperger-autists at least) and the male gender, in other words:
whirlingwind wrote:
I believe the only reason there are less women diagnosed is that they haven't done the research on women. I think there are just as many autistic women as men out there. Some of the differences are starting to be realised but the message isn't getting through to the clinicians.

I personally don't feel more social than the portrayal of male Aspies, I think it's just that the social pressure is higher on females but that doesn't mean we conform to it.

Social pressure could be another factor contributing to the lack of diagnosis of women. Experts definitely should expand their horizon.


Agree fully.



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10 Jan 2013, 8:34 am

Sylvastor wrote:
It is quite interesting to see I'm not the only one thinking that the research done may very well be flawed or one-sided and that it would need more focus on certain other aspects. I held back my opinions on the topic because I didn't want to influence your answers, but I guess I'll comment on it too now.

The fact that the diagnosis is often left out could have to do with the very core of the discovery of autism. As far as I know, the "testing subjects" were usually always male children. Even Hans Asperger studied four boys. That way the focus was probably put too much on the child-age/"original" status (of Asperger-autists at least) and the male gender, in other words:
whirlingwind wrote:
I believe the only reason there are less women diagnosed is that they haven't done the research on women. I think there are just as many autistic women as men out there. Some of the differences are starting to be realised but the message isn't getting through to the clinicians.

I personally don't feel more social than the portrayal of male Aspies, I think it's just that the social pressure is higher on females but that doesn't mean we conform to it.

Social pressure could be another factor contributing to the lack of diagnosis of women. Experts definitely should expand their horizon.


I love it that you called me Whirling Wind! LOL, I can see why you did it though! :lol:


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Sylvastor
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10 Jan 2013, 8:49 am

Heh, what a nasty typo!
These forums could benefit from a multiquote feature, that would make multiple quotes in one post each referencing the authors much easier than having to copy-paste each quote into one post separately or adding the author's name manually. :)
I always did it right the other times, I was even very sure I wrote m and not w. What's the lesson? Always tripple-check your posts when tired. People use to say mistakes and flaws make a person more sympathic, I hope this made me sympathic. :lol:

whirlingmind wrote:
Some of the differences are starting to be realised but the message isn't getting through to the clinicians.

I think that should be the job of the autism organisations, make the public aware of the disorder and make science aware of certain flaws (in diagnosis).
*tripple-checks post* I think this time I did everything right. :lol:


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10 Jan 2013, 12:48 pm

Yeah I believe that too. Women have the ability to "HIDE" AS better than men can because they are already socially conditioned.


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10 Jan 2013, 5:05 pm

Dreycrux wrote:
I just believe women tend to be naturally social, interested in social and interpersonal issues...hence less women being diagnosed?

Is it wrong to think this?
Women- well on the spectrum at least, I think aren't naturally social, but society 'sways' them in that direction; there has always been pressure from a young age for girls to behave and interact in a certain way...I definitely remember going through this as a child, and still do now.


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