Is this fair?

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Sure, there's a chance that might be the case, but I am not totally convinced they are banning him for being odd.

I am not convinced someone can be banned just for being odd from a religious environment like a synagogue.

What might have happened is he came off as odd, maybe mentally ill, to the members of the synagogue so they gave him the cold shoulder which often happens when people are uncomfortable. They ignore you and pray you go away.

This guy might have had his feelings hurt by their rebuff so he started getting louder, more intimidating and in their face because he hated being ignored and it spiraled downward from there.

At some point, he could have been aggravated enough to start insulting people or yelling at them when they tried to ignore him.

Wouldn't the synagogue fear a lawsuit if they banned him just for his oddness and nothing else? That alone is not suffecient reason to keep someone out of a synagogue or a store for that matter. Bans are not given out lightly.

I'm not exactly the most normal looking person and I've never been banned from places but I have been ignored plenty of times. I don't let it get to me. Not reacting is key.

I can't say if it was fair or not.
I wasn't there, and the article does not provide enough actual information about the situation to allow such a judgement to be made.

There has to be a certain level of respect for other people in public, no matter what your issues are. From the sounds of the article the guy is not suffering from tics or impulse control, he simply didn't care to respect the rules of the place he was visiting, and got to the point where he was knowingly disruptive, and just didn't give a #@$%.

And did you see the list of things they did for him? gym membership, warm beds, restaurant meals, etc? They didn't just toss him out, they tried to help him out. Eventually they just got to the point where he was abusing their kindness.

The truth is, there's a level of mental harm that he eventually caused those generous people.
The world is waking up to mental and emotional abuse being as bad as physical abuse:
He wasn't kicked out because of "quirks", he was kicked out because of months of rapscallion behaviour which disrupted the very goals of the place he was choosing to enter.

If it had been a soup kitchen I'd have a different opinion.
If it was a gym where dude insisted on excercising naked, I'd have the same opinion.
(though naked gyms actually exist in the world, I am thinking a normal gym here)

I watched some of his utube videos and he sounds mentally ill by his tone -- especially the fact that he has this huge smile and clown-like voice when he talks about things he considers to be quite serious. Now strictly speaking, this would not be either "tic" nor "impulse control". But it CAN be a general unawarenness about the world around him. This might have caused him to be disruptive without knowing it.

I guess I have a mental picture of people I would see on a bus from time to time who would be talking about themselves to complete strangers for like an hour. Typically, the strangers will keep saying "I know", "I understand" and so forth, all the while looking for an apportunity to go to the other side of the bus or even leave the bus. The guy would typically be completely unaware of these signals and just keep talking. By listening to what they would say just a few feet away from him where he can't hear them, they often do consider his behavior to be "harassment". But at the same time he is completely unaware of it.

Now, obvioulsy the people I met were NOT the guy in this article. But it sounds like he is a lot like them.



Well, in my case there is also a pattern that the people whom I allienate the most are the ones that used to help me. If you ask THEIR side of the story, they would tell you how long they were trying to help me and that I never appreciated it. However, on my end of the line, the story is different. Yes I DID appreciate their help. But, as a result of their help, I was "mislead" to think that they can tolerate anything and everything and, therefore, I started asking them a miriad of questions that drove them crazy.

Now, I know you would think that what I just typed sounds selfish. But it isn't. In my mind "they can tolerate anything and everything" is sinonimous with "they will never get hurt and they will never get tired". Now, if they will never get hurt, nor tired, there is nothing "wrong" about the idea of asking them stupid questions, is there? The reason it is selfish is because some people DO get hurt and tired but they try not to show it in order to spare my feelings.

Now, even though logically I understand that most likely they DO get tired and are too polite to whow it, I don't grasp it on intuitive level and that is why it is so hard. I mean, when you walk, you don't "logically" think that you have to first move left leg, then right, then left, and so forth. I mean yes, it is possible to logically explain why moving the same leg twice in a row would make you fall. But it would take probably few MINUTES to come up with logical proof of it. Yet, people figure out the right way to walk within fraction of a second without even thinking about it. So in the same way yes, logically it is possible to "explain" why it is "wrong" to exploit people "because they are helpful"; but if one intuitively doesn't grasp that, then one is doomed to keep "exploiting" them.

The bottom line is that I am VERY SINCERE when I feel grateful about the people who try to help me. And I am very sincere about good intentions of keeping up good relationship with them. Yet, DESPITE this sincerity, I keep ACTING in a way that I exploit them: the kinder they are, the more I ask to "have more". Then at the end of the day when I get confronted that I was exploiting them I feel awful, because it was never my intention. But at this point it is too late to do anything about it.

I mean with people who are less nice it is easier, since they would give off various signals telling me where their boundaries are. But with people who are overly nice it is very difficult since even when I do cross their boundary they will be too nice to let me know. It is entirely possible that the same thing has happened with this guy when he went to an "overly welcoming" synagoge. To me it is often a shock how people can be "overly welcomming" for months and then turn into my worst enemies within a day without any warning. Perhaps that is what happened to him, as well.



Given that it was one person against few dozens, "he" couldn't possibly have caused nearly as much harm to "them" as "they" caused to "him". I mean, take an average member of the sinagoge. He has a family, a round of friends, a well paying job, everything is fine ... except for one weird guy somewhere in the corner. Well, we all meet such guys in the bus from time to time ... Now step in the shoes of that "weird" guy. He has no friends, no family, no job, no home. He is a complete outcast. This synagoge was perahps the only place he could get any kind of acceptance what so ever. And then he lost even that. So obviously he got hurt a lot more than they were.

Now I know you are going to tell me that if he truly appreciated what he had he wouldn't have acted this way. Well, that assumes that he had enough social awarenness to know that what he did is wrong. And that is precisely what I question. I am thinking that perhaps he is simply unaware of social norms; and that is what made him homeless to begin with. Perhaps he is trying really hard to understand what is expected of him, and can't. So "someone" should try to step down and tolerate his weirdness. Then, perhaps, they can teach him the social expectations in the friendly manner and try to help him along as much as possible. But kicking him out is not the way to go. It only contributes to the problem.



He didn't disrupt the "very goals of this place". After all, he didn't say "no you shouldn't worship today it is not allowed". I know it sounds like I am being "too literal" but there is a reason for this. It is precisely the fact that NT-s are sometimes too vague that they lump several different people "into the same garbage pile" and just toss them out without trying to understand them. You see, from YOUR point of view he "disrupted the very goals of this place": even if he didn't do "exactly" that, what he did was "close enough". But HE doesn't realize it was "close enough". He simply doesn't see it! Thats why they probably should have tried to explain to him more clearly what he does wrong and why. And even then ... he might at first just remember that what I did yesterday was wrong, but today I am doing something else so it is not wrong. They should have tried to point things out to him over a long period of time to get him to see their side of the story.

Now, YES, they did "extend their friendliness" to him for a long time. But is it the same as trying to explain the rules of the game to him? No. In fact, they were probably too polite to tell him ANYTHING was wrong to begin with. Now, granted, they probably gave him a lot of obvious clues that it was not welcome; like for example whenever he talked about himself they would respond with simple nod or a "yes" and try to sit a little bit further. But he probably missed all of these clues due to his mental problem and was assumming they were eager to listen to him simply because they were polite.

Last edited by Roman on 24 Jul 2011, 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It is not always the case. Let me list you some instances when they were kicking me out regardless of whether I "react" or not:

1. Back in USA I can think of three restaurants where I was banned from. In one of the restuarants the complain was that I forget to shower and so I smell. In another restaurant the complaint was that, while I was doing my homework there, I kept going outside to pick up more books and then come back, and they were forced to watch my stuff while I was away. And, in the third restaurant they simply told me I can't go there without telling me why (they said they are not the owner so they were simply informed not to let me in).

2. Also, just a couple of days ago, I was told not to use a certain computer place, because I kept taking the shoes off. I was also told that I smell and I was asked if I was on drugs, which I am not.

3. Similarly, a year ago, I was told at the airport that I looked drunk and they didn't allow me on the flight ... but the fact is that I never drank anything. I simply LOOKED that way either because of being sleepy or because of general clumsiness due to Asperger.

4. Back in 2001 when I was in a Jewish club (Hillel), they were offering free tours to Israel. But they turned me down because of the communication problems I was having with members. They said my tone of voice was "accusitory". In reality I didn't mean to accuse them of anything. I was simply trying to engage in conversation in order to socialize. The only thing I could think of was keep asking more and more questions, since I don't know how to do "small talk". These questions probably sounded prying. In combination with the fact that I was nervious (being desperate to make friends would make one nervious) I probably kept frowning all along, which came across as accusitory.

5. Also, back in 1997, I went to the expedition of helping someone to catch butterflies for his bio project. So, before we took off, we had a dinner and people were talking about science (not butterflies; they talked about other topics, more along the lines of human biology). So I started asking repeated questions about variuos things they were saying and kept shifting the conversation sideways without letting it progress. Then, after the dinner, I was confronted by the group leader who was seriously considering taking me off the trip. The only thing that kept me on the trip is that my mom was there with me and she persuaded him that she knows how to handle me. By the end of the trip their opinion of me shifted to better and they were sorry for wanting to kick me out at first. But still fact remains that if not for my mom they would have.




Well, this MIGHT be the case but you don't "know" it. If you take the example of me, then what you just said describes me very well in SOME of the situations. Yes, these situations happen very often when I act out. But, APART FROM THEM, there is a long list of OTHER CASES when I do NOT act out, and yet I get kicked out anyway. So if you put 2 and 2 together, then the bottom line is "they would kick me out anyway, and my acting out just adds a bit of icing on the cake).

In terms of the above list, the only cases when acting out was in the picture was items 1 and 2. Nothing else. In case of item 1, I got angry at airport security for assuming I was drunk and kept yelling at them. In case of item 2 I yelled "f**k you" to the guy who had problem with my shoes being off. But still, there are OTHER TIMES when I don't react in this manner, and was kicked out regardless. For example, in case of restaurants (item 3) I never had a chance to yell and swear at them before they kicked me out; they kicked me out plainly for being "odd". Now, I admit, that IF I had an apportunity to, I probably WOULD HAVE yelled at them. But htey don't know it, they are not mind readers. So their behavior shows that they are willing to kick someone out who is odd and NOT agressive.

As far as Jewish club/trip to Israel incident (item 4), yes I had plenty of outbursts because of the cold shoulder that I got. BUT my outbursts started only AFTER they told me i can't go on trip to Israel. In fact, UNTIL they told me that, I was simply assuming other people were "neutral" towards me, since they neither siad "good" things nor "bad" things. But when I was told there were 5 complaints about me, THAT is what triggered future outbursts. But, obviously, since future does not cause the past, you can not say that they didn't let me to go to Israel because I was GOING TO outburst a month later. A plain fact is that htey didn't let me go, period. Outbursts didn't make it either better or worse.

As far as the trip to catch butterflies (item 5), that was probably the best example of when I did NOT react with anger at all. After all it was 1997, and my anger issues started from 2001 (with Jewish club incident just mentioned). So, back in 1997 I "took pride" in the fact that I ask too many questions since that is what defines a scientist; so I simply took their criticism as praise.

Putting these items together, you see that I get kicked out "whether or not I am agressive". Being or not being agressive is just a red herring that can provide them an additional excuse to kick me out.

I completely agree with you. In fact this is what I kept thinking about myself. Especailly since during the bible studies I am sure they DO say how important it is to help the needy and how the last will be first, and so forth ... and yet, in the real world, somehow I am an exception to the rule. What is even more hurtful is that perhaps they do apply this in SOME situations, and to SOME people ... just not me. It feels like perhaps they understand it but don't take it to heart with full implications. They just assume that "bible has common sense" (like everything else they touch); so, since part of "common sense" is to toss me aside, Bible must have tossed me aside as well. So I am neither first nor last, I am not even in the picture. And this attitude really hurts me.

Now, speaking of "common sense", it "makes sense" to say "help the needy", "the last will be first", and so forth; in fact, saying anything that contradicts these statements would sound "arrogant". But, at the same time, this same "common sense" would dictate that if someone like either myself or that other guy comes along, they should kick him out. So, because NT-s are so used to listen to their common sense, tehy don't even notice a contradiction here. Being on the other end of the line, I do see this contradition, it is like a nose on a face. But NT-s don't see it, because they are too busy avoiding me, or any thought of me.

I wasn't aware there was more data, or youtube videos.


Hey. Stop. Don't talk for me.
Fact is, I DO understand your point, and selfish is the farthest word from my mind.
After all I've been there too.

Fact is, people need to start learning that when they are upset/tired/bored/scared/whatever, and the person boring them doesn't stop doing whatever it is, they should take them/you aside and speak frankly and politely (as the butterfly king does in your example later on - though he didn't quite seem to handle it as gently as he could have)

He was disrupting their search for peace and holy unity.
Now I personally don't find religious institutions to be all that relaxing or productive for me, but for others, they are a place you go to find peace. Like Yoga or Meditation groups. You wouldn't be able to do your Yoga if someone was coming by and slapping your asses while you did "downward dog" would you? Twentyfour people trying to relax and meditate in a "class designed for meditation" aren't going to keep coming to that class. Now I do feel for the poor bastard who got kicked out for slapping the students' asses if he couldn't understand what was wrong with doing that... but I don't think he has a right to stay in a class designed for meditation if he can't learn not to slap asses. There are certain standards that need to be imposed in order to maintain a sense of social safety in institutions like classrooms and churches and airports.

He needs to go somewhere else. This is a church with say 100 people who come to this place for spiritual peace, not for a round of clapping or to listen to babies crying - I'm sure momma Tess has been asked not to bring whine-nonstop baby McGee back during sunday services, would you say she should be allowed back too? I wouldn't. Not if the baby disrupted two or three weeks in a row. I'd suggest she get a sitter or get out.

He got told he was no longer welcome and I'm certain they told him why. They might have families and supports - or they might NOT. Your point is that he had finally found acceptance - but he hadn't - it was false acceptance. Were they wrong to keep enabling him and building his faith up so much? Yeah probably. But I'm sure they started with the best of intentions. They just didn't know how to continue it, or conclude/solve it. I agree he got hurt. I'm not denying that at all. What I do have to consider is that there were 100 other people under the Rabbi's wings who he had sworn to God to shelter. Those 100 people were not able to find the peace and light of God when this other person was present. I hate to quote that the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few, but in some cases....

Agreed. Someone should.
From the sounds of the article, a lot of people tried to help. Obviously they failed to do it right. But at a certain point everyone needs to decide whether or not they have the personal patience and resources to help dude on street. The Pastor (or Rabbi, or whatever) had obviously reached a limit where he felt he was no longer able to do this man any good... he was admitting to himself that he had failed, despite months of effort. "It is in God's hands now" is probably what he said to himself. And I have to imagine he knew best if he was at the end of his rope.

Yeah. As I explained above with the Yoga analogy, he did. The goals of any religious institution are peace, harmony, and unity. When someone repeatedly shatters the unity, he's not an acceptable churchgoer. Maybe they should have gotten him set up with a shrink - I'll totally agree they could have done something like that. But not welcoming him to family worship day any more was a reasonable and educated decision, based on the good of the many.

Edit: I do think a bit of one on one time was called for. And a church should have the desire, resources, and ability to provide this. Neither I nor you nor anyone here knows if they offered that to him. If they didn't then maybe I'm wrong and Rabbi whatshisface was just a punk. That might be a message that should be passed on to them for next time. But again, we don't know if this was offered or not.


Agreed.
They didn't know how to handle it.
They did the best that they could with the general knowledge and instincts they possessed.

I think the real problem identified by all of this is the following:

Bloody NT society doesn't know how to handle people with social and mental differences and goddamnit there needs to be an worldwide awareness campaign on this issue.

To be honest, I've never done anything like what you are describing. Never had employees watch my belongings at a restaurant. Never had any problems taking showers. For one thing, I wouldn't trust anyone at a restaurant with my belongings. I would be too worried someone would throw them away, then when I got back they'd all pretend they had no idea what I am talking about so I just never took the risk to begin with. It's generally a bad idea to leave belongings unattended in a public place. Are you sure they banned you or just asked you to leave? Sometimes they will let you come back some other time so long as you don't do what it is they have a problem with. Banning is when they never want you back regardless.


I have been asked to put shoes on and when they ask I always comply, even if I have blisters on my feet. Usually, that is why I have them off. Since so many people around here are on drugs on a daily basis, never had anyone accuse me of being on drugs at a public place then asked to leave. Most people around here are on something, most the time, whether it be illegal or prescribed. I am one of the few who takes nothing but an Aleve every now and then, maybe some Pamprin on a rare occasion.
It seems what you are doing is a bit beyond what I do. I just might have strange mannerisms but I stay quiet and don't cause them any problems. I look different but keep up my hygiene and stuff like that though I've seen people at the store who do not and are left alone. Not sure about restaurants. Owners of restaurants are picky about stuff like hygiene, maybe?


Yes, that can be a problem, the clumsiness and glazed over eyes can give people the wrong impression. Plus, I have trouble with carbs so when I eat a meal out, I often feel clumsier and tired afterward, more apt to slur my words and stumble around but I swear it's the CARBS, never depressants like alcohol but since so many people are on something, people assume everyone is. I've never been kicked out a place for it, though or denied passage on an air plane. I am always clean and quiet, though. Being quiet helps.


One time I took a workshop to learn how to teach illiterates how to read. I thought it would be a great way to volunteer for something and it looked easy to do. I went to the workshop and everything, completed it, but never heard back from the people who organized it who said they would call everyone and give them their tutoring assignments. Then, I heard from one of the instructors like a year later and she didn't ask me if I wanted an assignment or anything! I can't remember what she talked about, but I do recall it wasn't about me going someplace and helping someone learn to read. I can remember thinking it was typical attitude of people and I felt like there was nothing I could do about it. I should have called them back instead of waiting for them to call me but I didn't want to push them if they really didn't want me involved. Sometimes being denied sucks. My guess the reason they didn't want to include me is they were doubtful I could teach someone how to read, but I get this mindset that they are missing out on the opportunity to exploit my skills and talents by being superficial and shallow. I am a marvelous tutor, but if they want to miss out, so be it. I have better things to do, anyway.

That is a minor infraction. They should have just let you go on the trip.



My general rule is no outbursts no matter what. There's a saying I repeat "Never let them see you sweat." It's something that stand up comics say to themselves when dealing with hecklers and it's awesome advice on how to deal with situations like this. If you feel upset, don't say anything, just leave until you can think clearly again. Come back and try to talk to them in a calm way, without being accusatory or angry. When someone gets loud or angry, they usually get banned from things. It's across the board, standard procedure, like it or not. Not much anyone can do about it.
If you get kicked out for not being aggressive, calmly talk to the person doing the kicking out and see if the issue can be resolved. Ask if you can be let in if you do _________________________________________ (fill in the blank with the answer they give.) If people see you are trying and willing to work with them, they will try to help you out if you don't get angry with them. Once you get angry and they kick you out, probably the only option left is to leave them alone and go someplace else and try not to make the same mistake again.

Look,some times we are too sensitive and illogical.Not everything is discrimination.Let's take for example sports.Men play with men and women with women.Nothing wrong.