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Aimless
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09 Sep 2011, 5:26 am

Is it possible? I seem to have been, at least my mother said my issues started at age 2. The funny thing is I can have decent self esteem at a rational level. I can say I know I am a valid person but when it comes to my gut feelings everything falls apart. Could this come from viscerally feeling my separateness from others? Just musing. I choose not to overcompensate with a false sense of self congratulation and I have learned not to constantly self denigrate. Thoughts?


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oceandrop
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09 Sep 2011, 6:11 am

I think good self-esteem is mostly about positive self-talk. It's a habit that can be learned in the same way that a lot of people with low self-esteem have the habit of negative self-talk. If you've never experienced positive self-esteem it probably means negative self-talk has been a life-long habit -- but it's a habit that can be broken.

There are books on amazon about developing habits of positive self-talk. We can train ourselves to make our internal conversations full of encouragement, positivity, empowerment, etc. and soon our actions align with our positive thoughts and positive beliefs about ourselves, our self-esteem increases, and the cycle reinforces itself.

The same also applies for negative self-talk (it reinforces itself by limiting our potential and our actions). For example if I keep telling myself I'm not funny, I will likely not bother making any jokes, and that means nobody will ever laugh, and so I have reinforced that negative idea and made it a self-fulfilling circle. If on the other hand I have positive self-talk and tell myself daily that I'm funny and will become even funnier in the future, then I will make jokes, people will probably laugh, and I reinforce the positive idea and feel good, making even more bold jokes perhaps, until eventually even if people fail to laugh at a joke I will be laughing hysterically at myself thinking 'these guys are idiots for not laughing - that was hilarious!'. But it all starts with developing habits of positive self-talk.

I say this as a person who has experienced both extremes of self-esteem.



SteveBorg
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09 Sep 2011, 6:35 am

Self-esteem is a difficult concept, because everyone is different. I think there are two different components to self-esteem: the subjective feeling of self-esteem, and competence. When we feel generally competent, it boosts our self esteem. On the other hand, when we struggle in certain areas, we can develop a low sense of self in that area. You referred to feeling separate: the social aspect of Aspergers can certainly contribute to feeling lonely or different. At that point, your thoughts really are key, because you can either develop useful beliefs or negative beliefs about yourself, others, and the world.

I also think that, temperamentally and genetically, we may be 'wired' toward lower or higher self-esteem. We do have the power of choice over how we choose to perceive ourselves, so we can learn to have higher self-esteem. Hope this helps.


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09 Sep 2011, 6:50 am

I have low self-esteem in general life but rise about it in the pursuit of my hobbies; most of which I undertake to an above average standard.

The difference is that the hobbies have defined rules which I fully understand.
General life's rules are a total mystery to me.



trappedinhell
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09 Sep 2011, 6:52 am

Aimless wrote:
Could this come from viscerally feeling my separateness from others?


Definitely. Motivational ideas can only take you so far: the bottom line is that being different is very serious. We lie in communities, so almost everything we want requires a connection with others at some point. Without that connection we cannot get what we want, and then it is rational to feel helpless, unwanted, and hopeless, and those feelings are usually interpreted as low self esteem.

I often think of Moses Shapira, a man who discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1883. But before that he had also sold forged pottery objects, and so was rejected as a fraud. He finally gave in to espair and shot himself. Then in 1947 the scrolls were discovered by somebody else and became the greatest archeological find of all time, and tiny fragments are worth millions. The point is that it doesn't matter if you are right. If you can't connect with other other people this will usually affect your self esteem.



Last edited by trappedinhell on 09 Sep 2011, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Sep 2011, 6:59 am

I always found the esteem-boosting stuff that was attempted to be pounded into me at preschool and school difficult to accept, because it seemed so baseless, nobody explained to me how it was possible that everyone was "special" and how the speaker could possibly know that, and why, so I just rejected it as nonsense.



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09 Sep 2011, 7:16 am

oceandrop wrote:
I think good self-esteem is mostly about positive self-talk. It's a habit that can be learned in the same way that a lot of people with low self-esteem have the habit of negative self-talk. If you've never experienced positive self-esteem it probably means negative self-talk has been a life-long habit -- but it's a habit that can be broken.

There are books on amazon about developing habits of positive self-talk. We can train ourselves to make our internal conversations full of encouragement, positivity, empowerment, etc. and soon our actions align with our positive thoughts and positive beliefs about ourselves, our self-esteem increases, and the cycle reinforces itself.

The same also applies for negative self-talk (it reinforces itself by limiting our potential and our actions). For example if I keep telling myself I'm not funny, I will likely not bother making any jokes, and that means nobody will ever laugh, and so I have reinforced that negative idea and made it a self-fulfilling circle. If on the other hand I have positive self-talk and tell myself daily that I'm funny and will become even funnier in the future, then I will make jokes, people will probably laugh, and I reinforce the positive idea and feel good, making even more bold jokes perhaps, until eventually even if people fail to laugh at a joke I will be laughing hysterically at myself thinking 'these guys are idiots for not laughing - that was hilarious!'. But it all starts with developing habits of positive self-talk.




I say this as a person who has experienced both extremes of self-esteem.


I'm sorry I couldn't resist :P
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY[/youtube]
But you're right, it helps at least to monitor the negative self talk, which I do work on. That's what I mean by my self esteem being OK on a rational level but I think on another level it seems to have become hard wired. People who overdo it with the positive self talk (I know someone like that) are really hard to be around.


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09 Sep 2011, 9:25 am

I am born with low self-esteem. I've had low self-esteem for as long as I can remember, and it seems to be something that's built into me. If I discover that somebody is laughing at me or staring at me, I find it hard to just filter it out. I can't follow the ''oh they're not worth getting upset about'' attitude. Other people make me feel worthless, and learning on WP that Aspies give off vibes no matter what we do, has put the tin hat on because now I know that it's personal that they're laughing at me because of the vibes. So it makes me feel like a deformed alien from the swamp. I don't like people laughing at me. I want to go out knowing I blend in, but obviously I don't. It makes me feel so upset.
It's like when your child is bullied at school - you don't just shrug and say, ''oh don't worry about them they're not worth it''. You feel so hurt for your child that you do something about it. If a kid just walked around punching everybody he or she saw, whoever they were, then you just say, ''he's obviously got a problem - don't take it to heart'', but when there's a group of them who seem to be liked by everyone and they're picking on this one person, that's where it's more hurtful and upsetting.
So it's a bit like me - if I saw somebody who was sitting there laughing at everyone, whoever they are, I wouldn't take no notice, but when there's a group of them and only seen picking on just me, and no-one else, that's when it's upsetting and personal.
Some days I can try to let it ride over me, but there often comes a day where I'm feeling more anxious than usual, or feeling more isolated and vulnerable, or just in a bad mood, or having PMT or an attack of depression, and that's where I take everything to heart and really hate myself and the resentment builds up and up until I let them win - which normally I do. I know I'm an Aspie, but blending in matters to me. It just does. I am self-aware, and I'm aware enough of the world (I've always have been), and also I'm an extrovert Aspie, so I can't just change now. I can ignore all the laughing in the world to my heart's content, but there will always be hurt feelings inside me, wondering why they're laughing when I'm not even doing anything to even remotively stand out from thousands of other people. I may be an anxious person, and I may be an Aspie, but that still doesn't mean I haven't got feelings - and that also doesn't mean I'm putting on a front all the time. When I'm being normal in public, 90 percent of it is natural to me, because I don't want to stand out. I fear standing out, and I've learnt not to stand out, and I've learnt how to keep my cool and keep up positive body language, etc.

A couple of years ago I read in the paper once that a boy committed suicide because people were looking and laughing at him, and he tried and tried to blend in, and he knew he did blend in, but other people made him feel like he didn't, and he knew he couldn't do any more to blend in so he escaped instead.
Lucky for me I have a fear of dying......


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09 Sep 2011, 9:59 am

When it comes to self esteem I usually have to ask the question what self esteem because I don't really have any....and no real confidence either. I am not sure if that is just how I am or if it was the result of being treated like crap at school as a child. I mean it got to the point where I did not really want to attempt to accomplish anything impressive because I was afraid of messing up and having everyone give me crap over it. It tended to be easier not to be involved in anything...not that I was welcome to be involved in anything anyways.



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09 Sep 2011, 10:57 am

I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.



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09 Sep 2011, 11:21 am

I always thought t'was because my mom has low self esteem that I also have low self esteem. My issues with esteem began pretty early. Sometimes I can be very confident though.



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09 Sep 2011, 11:27 am

Mdyar wrote:
I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.


Prozac does not always work and it does not quite correct the faulty underpinned neurology that would cause less seratonin in the first place it effects seratonin specifically by making more of it availible. And yes a positive environment can certainly improve things but that is not possible for everyone.



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09 Sep 2011, 11:31 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.


Prozac does not always work and it does not quite correct the faulty underpinned neurology that would cause less seratonin in the first place it effects seratonin specifically by making more of it availible. And yes a positive environment can certainly improve things but that is not possible for everyone.


SSRIs made me a happier person when I was on them but I still had problems with my self esteem.



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09 Sep 2011, 11:47 am

pree10shun wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.


Prozac does not always work and it does not quite correct the faulty underpinned neurology that would cause less seratonin in the first place it effects seratonin specifically by making more of it availible. And yes a positive environment can certainly improve things but that is not possible for everyone.


SSRIs made me a happier person when I was on them but I still had problems with my self esteem.


They made me 'hear' everyone whispering about me behind my back.......among other unpleasentries. and they made me about 100x more anxious. Not quite my idea of happiness.



pree10shun
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09 Sep 2011, 11:52 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
pree10shun wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.


Prozac does not always work and it does not quite correct the faulty underpinned neurology that would cause less seratonin in the first place it effects seratonin specifically by making more of it availible. And yes a positive environment can certainly improve things but that is not possible for everyone.


SSRIs made me a happier person when I was on them but I still had problems with my self esteem.


They made me 'hear' everyone whispering about me behind my back.......among other unpleasentries. and they made me about 100x more anxious. Not quite my idea of happiness.


When I got off them I had major depression problems that I did not prolly have before.



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09 Sep 2011, 12:00 pm

pree10shun wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
pree10shun wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
I'm going to say one can be born with low serotonin and thus low self esteem. The low biology is there from the beginning. I read an interesting book on Prozac and the impression is that it transforms this into another camp of thinking. Not by speeding you up, but by correcting the faulty underpinned neurology.

Can this lift outside of drugs? Yes, through a positive environment. Not in many cases, though.

See: Listening to Prozac, (1993). Great book as it goes deep into biology and theoretical models of behavior.


Prozac does not always work and it does not quite correct the faulty underpinned neurology that would cause less seratonin in the first place it effects seratonin specifically by making more of it availible. And yes a positive environment can certainly improve things but that is not possible for everyone.


SSRIs made me a happier person when I was on them but I still had problems with my self esteem.


They made me 'hear' everyone whispering about me behind my back.......among other unpleasentries. and they made me about 100x more anxious. Not quite my idea of happiness.


When I got off them I had major depression problems that I did not prolly have before.


yeah the negative side effects can suck...its intresting all I had to do to have them prescribed was take a stupid quiz about how depressed I felt and answer random questions about my life in general many of them seemingly irrelevent and had them prescribed the same day...I don't feel that was an adequete process.