Opinions on Simon Baron-Cohen's response to critics

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serenity
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15 Sep 2011, 1:52 pm

They would if they weren't able to fully grasp the concept that others can have information and POV that they don't. Kinda like the kid that plays hide and seek and thinks that if they can't see the other kids, then the other kids can't see them. I remember thinking that when I was a child. I read something about that in a book about silly people (a child's book) and realized that I was wrong about the 'if I can't see you , you can't see me' stance.

I really don't like to call it lacking empathy, as much due to the varying views of what the word empathy actually means. I'd prefer the term Theory of Mind, or mindblindness. Something I thought about yesterday about lacking theory of mind. It's that if I wouldn't do something to someone else, then I don't expect them to do it to me. My son has this issue, too. I have learned a lot in the series of my life, so I have acquired knowledge, but have been manipulated and bullied quite a lot to get that knowledge. Since I don't read people well, and don't always get that their intentions might be less than nice I (especially as a young lady) have found myself in some pretty bad places, with some pretty bad people that most NTs would have been able to know way before I figured it out that other's intentions were to do me harm. I think it's really important no matter what terms we use that we teach young autistics not to be paranoid, but to learn to pay attention to certain things, because we don't always understand that other people's motives may be to harm us, because we ourselves would never think to do such a thing. They need to be taught some of this by rote, because we don't always do it intuitively.



cyberdad
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15 Sep 2011, 7:53 pm

serenity wrote:
They would if they weren't able to fully grasp the concept that others can have information and POV that they don't. Kinda like the kid that plays hide and seek and thinks that if they can't see the other kids, then the other kids can't see them. I remember thinking that when I was a child. I read something about that in a book about silly people (a child's book) and realized that I was wrong about the 'if I can't see you , you can't see me' stance.

I really don't like to call it lacking empathy, as much due to the varying views of what the word empathy actually means. I'd prefer the term Theory of Mind, or mindblindness. Something I thought about yesterday about lacking theory of mind. It's that if I wouldn't do something to someone else, then I don't expect them to do it to me. My son has this issue, too. I have learned a lot in the series of my life, so I have acquired knowledge, but have been manipulated and bullied quite a lot to get that knowledge. Since I don't read people well, and don't always get that their intentions might be less than nice I (especially as a young lady) have found myself in some pretty bad places, with some pretty bad people that most NTs would have been able to know way before I figured it out that other's intentions were to do me harm. I think it's really important no matter what terms we use that we teach young autistics not to be paranoid, but to learn to pay attention to certain things, because we don't always understand that other people's motives may be to harm us, because we ourselves would never think to do such a thing. They need to be taught some of this by rote, because we don't always do it intuitively.


Interesting, I often find I'm quite direct, so when asking a question to an NT I often find they answer the question as they would like to answer it instead of addressing the issues underlying the question.

In many ways the label of egocentric can equally apply to adult NTs and not just autistic kids.



btbnnyr
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15 Sep 2011, 8:16 pm

All I know from personal experience is that NTs have extreme difficulty empathizing with me. It seems that other autistics have also observed this phenomenon of being constantly misinterpreted by NTs, the supposed mindreaders, because NTs have no clue how autistics think and feel. NTs can only empathize with other NTs. If I didn't know better, and I wanted to make up theories and write books, then I could easily stretch the observed phenomena into "NTs lack empathy", and I could even create my own Empathy Quotient to prove what I wanted to prove, the stuff that I made up in my theories and wrote into my books.



btbnnyr
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15 Sep 2011, 8:23 pm

If I had taken the fabulous Sally-Anne Testimony of Empathy and Humanity when I was little, I would surely have failed it, because every weird-worded question would have been translated into "Where is the ball?" in my mind. You? Me? Sally? Anne? Whatever. It's all about the ball.

Begeezus, I didn't know that I had a point of view, let alone others. I guess others know better than me. They know that they have a point of view, and they know that I have a point of view, but they think that I have the same point of view that they do. Cue "WRONG" button sound here. Why can't they figure out that different people have different points of view?



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15 Sep 2011, 8:51 pm

While Simon Baron-Cohen's at it, maybe he could come over to interpret all my non-verbal cues to tell me how I think and feel in front of him. I sure would love to see his amazing mentalizing at work. Maybe some of his empathy rays will rub off on me, and I could slink away with them My Precious My Precious My Precious to my recharging chamber.



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15 Sep 2011, 8:55 pm

Since NTs have such great empathy with everyone, why are they still slapping those ugly Puzzle pictures on everything related to autism? After all, what can possibly be puzzling to a bunch of Mindreaders The Science Guys?

Image



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16 Sep 2011, 3:00 am

btbnnyr wrote:
It seems that other autistics have also observed this phenomenon of being constantly misinterpreted by NTs, the supposed mindreaders, because NTs have no clue how autistics think and feel. NTs can only empathize with other NTs. If I didn't know better, and I wanted to make up theories and write books, then I could easily stretch the observed phenomena into "NTs lack empathy".


Interesting perspective. Yes that is logical. An NT empathises most readily with people who are responding to external stimuli or event in a similar way to them. In contrast if an autistic child experiences pain because of hearing a high pitched sound or because of feeling of a particular fabric - an NT is unlikely to experience empathy because they see nothing wrong wit the external stimuli. This is likely the primary source of antagonism between NTs and autistic people re: communication and relationships because NTs likely feel confused and dislocated when trying to empathise with an autistic persons specific responses to the external environment that don't match their response to the same stimuli.

In addition most NTs spending time with an autistic person (voluntarily as a friend or through paid services or family) are in the position of trying to be therapists telling the autistic person "do this and don;t do that". Even if this is in the form of gentle encouragement the connection between the two is not always one of shared experiences...unfortunately.



serenity
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16 Sep 2011, 9:59 am

cyberdad wrote:
serenity wrote:
They would if they weren't able to fully grasp the concept that others can have information and POV that they don't. Kinda like the kid that plays hide and seek and thinks that if they can't see the other kids, then the other kids can't see them. I remember thinking that when I was a child. I read something about that in a book about silly people (a child's book) and realized that I was wrong about the 'if I can't see you , you can't see me' stance.

I really don't like to call it lacking empathy, as much due to the varying views of what the word empathy actually means. I'd prefer the term Theory of Mind, or mindblindness. Something I thought about yesterday about lacking theory of mind. It's that if I wouldn't do something to someone else, then I don't expect them to do it to me. My son has this issue, too. I have learned a lot in the series of my life, so I have acquired knowledge, but have been manipulated and bullied quite a lot to get that knowledge. Since I don't read people well, and don't always get that their intentions might be less than nice I (especially as a young lady) have found myself in some pretty bad places, with some pretty bad people that most NTs would have been able to know way before I figured it out that other's intentions were to do me harm. I think it's really important no matter what terms we use that we teach young autistics not to be paranoid, but to learn to pay attention to certain things, because we don't always understand that other people's motives may be to harm us, because we ourselves would never think to do such a thing. They need to be taught some of this by rote, because we don't always do it intuitively.


Interesting, I often find I'm quite direct, so when asking a question to an NT I often find they answer the question as they would like to answer it instead of addressing the issues underlying the question.

In many ways the label of egocentric can equally apply to adult NTs and not just autistic kids.


I don't understand what you said and how it relates to what I said. In any event, I have enjoyed reading opinions here, but I find that I have a different opinion than the majority. I'm clicking to unwatch this topic. I'm obviously getting something out of SBC's theories that no one else is, because I don't see what is so bad, or why I should feel so threatened by what he says. Saying that we process emotion differently does not equate less than. We are in the minority, so that's why we are being studied. To find out how we're different. (again different, not less) And I agree that NTs don't read us very well, either, but I wonder how well we read each other? Probably better than they do, but I really don't know. So you could accurately say NTs lack autistic Empathy and that would be correct. I wouldn't think of it as a put down, or insult, but a fact. Same as I don't see why it's seen as an insult to say the same about us.



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17 Sep 2011, 12:01 am

serenity wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
serenity wrote:
They would if they weren't able to fully grasp the concept that others can have information and POV that they don't. Kinda like the kid that plays hide and seek and thinks that if they can't see the other kids, then the other kids can't see them. I remember thinking that when I was a child. I read something about that in a book about silly people (a child's book) and realized that I was wrong about the 'if I can't see you , you can't see me' stance.

I really don't like to call it lacking empathy, as much due to the varying views of what the word empathy actually means. I'd prefer the term Theory of Mind, or mindblindness. Something I thought about yesterday about lacking theory of mind. It's that if I wouldn't do something to someone else, then I don't expect them to do it to me. My son has this issue, too. I have learned a lot in the series of my life, so I have acquired knowledge, but have been manipulated and bullied quite a lot to get that knowledge. Since I don't read people well, and don't always get that their intentions might be less than nice I (especially as a young lady) have found myself in some pretty bad places, with some pretty bad people that most NTs would have been able to know way before I figured it out that other's intentions were to do me harm. I think it's really important no matter what terms we use that we teach young autistics not to be paranoid, but to learn to pay attention to certain things, because we don't always understand that other people's motives may be to harm us, because we ourselves would never think to do such a thing. They need to be taught some of this by rote, because we don't always do it intuitively.


Interesting, I often find I'm quite direct, so when asking a question to an NT I often find they answer the question as they would like to answer it instead of addressing the issues underlying the question.

In many ways the label of egocentric can equally apply to adult NTs and not just autistic kids.


I don't understand what you said and how it relates to what I said. In any event, I have enjoyed reading opinions here, but I find that I have a different opinion than the majority. I'm clicking to unwatch this topic. I'm obviously getting something out of SBC's theories that no one else is, because I don't see what is so bad, or why I should feel so threatened by what he says. Saying that we process emotion differently does not equate less than. We are in the minority, so that's why we are being studied. To find out how we're different. (again different, not less) And I agree that NTs don't read us very well, either, but I wonder how well we read each other? Probably better than they do, but I really don't know. So you could accurately say NTs lack autistic Empathy and that would be correct. I wouldn't think of it as a put down, or insult, but a fact. Same as I don't see why it's seen as an insult to say the same about us.


No worries and thank you for a interesting exchange. Most Aspergers on this forum last 2 replies with me before the ADHD kicks in and they get disinterested in the conversation.



serenity
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20 Sep 2011, 8:06 am

cyberdad wrote:
No worries and thank you for a interesting exchange. Most Aspergers on this forum last 2 replies with me before the ADHD kicks in and they get disinterested in the conversation.


My husband has ADHD so I'm pretty used to that communication style having lived with it for many years. :)

I know that I said that I was done with discussing this on here (and everywhere else for that matter) but I saw on my blogroll that a new post has has been added from the woman who challenged SBC. Her rebuttal is something I think I mostly agree with. I thought you'd all like to read the latest developments, since some of you put in a lot of effort and thoughts into this thread.

Unwarranted Conclusions and the Potential for Harm: Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg's Reply to Simon Baron-Cohen



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21 Sep 2011, 2:20 am

serenity wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
No worries and thank you for a interesting exchange. Most Aspergers on this forum last 2 replies with me before the ADHD kicks in and they get disinterested in the conversation.


My husband has ADHD so I'm pretty used to that communication style having lived with it for many years. :)

I know that I said that I was done with discussing this on here (and everywhere else for that matter) but I saw on my blogroll that a new post has has been added from the woman who challenged SBC. Her rebuttal is something I think I mostly agree with. I thought you'd all like to read the latest developments, since some of you put in a lot of effort and thoughts into this thread.

Unwarranted Conclusions and the Potential for Harm: Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg's Reply to Simon Baron-Cohen


LOL! thanks for the link. I just realised I expressed my previous post making it sound like others here have the ADHD but actually meant myself. I often celebrate how conducive the English language is toward self deprecating humor but make a mess of my intentions.