Idiots amongst people with A.S. (esp. in support groups)

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Fraya
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18 Sep 2006, 11:08 am

The fact you thought their encouragement was useless belies the fact you had already convinced yourself you couldnt accomplish your goals.

Your right things are easier for some people than others but given enough effort nothing is impossible unless you think it is.


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anbuend
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18 Sep 2006, 11:04 pm

Fraya, flap your arms and fly over to my apartment, and the moment you show up here, having done that, you can lecture me all you want about how anything is possible. If you show me that, I'll be willing to believe anything you say. Until then, please don't assume things about situations you don't understand.

Seriously, it's something beyond rude to tell someone that they were starving merely because they'd given up on themselves. You know nothing about me.

I had to fight as hard as I could fight for every inch of movement -- literally every inch, often with outside prompting for each inch, often having to start over -- and did so day in and day out in circumstances you probably can't imagine. I had to manually locate every single body part and tell it where to go, while manually trying to comprehend bits of my environment as they flashed in and out of existence as far as I could tell. This was also while, even if I found a particular body part such as a hand, if I told it to do something, it often went in the exact opposite direction, totally outside of my volition. Sometimes I lost any complex comprehension of my environment for hours at a time, sometimes I lost any and all voluntary movement for hours at a time. Even keeping the idea in my head of such "simple" things as "food," "water," and "bathroom" was very hard work, a full-time and all-day job, and I had signs posted all over the house -- that more than half the time I was utterly incapable of reading, because they just looked like random visual patterns and wouldn't formulate themselves into words -- telling me about them. Even when I got elements of the movements right, my body totally jumbled the sequence of events, which meant that I'd do things like pick up towels and put them on the stove and turn it on, or run outside and pee in the front yard, or take off my shirt and stick it in the fridge, or leave pots full of water scattered around the house, and food in the trashcan.

By the time I finally got services, my house was literally several feet deep in trash and the initial woman they sent to help out around the house had to call out someone with more training in sanitation just to clean it.

If it makes you feel better about the world, you can try, try really hard even, to convince yourself that I just wasn't trying hard enough, hadn't put my mind to things, etc. In fact, I was using every bit of energy and ingenuity I had to get through the day and either eat food, drink water, or use the toilet. (Usually not enough of any of those, and rarely more than one of them, in a day.)

The people at the "support group" either echoed the idea I was already trying with the signs (as in, this was tried, this wasn't working), or proposed that I "just move" in ways that my body flat-out refused to move, or proposed ideas that involved sequencing steps in my head at least as complicated as the steps I was already trying unsuccessfully to sequence. Meanwhile, every time I went to the support group, that meant a large chunk of one day, possibly the entire day, and part of the next day, was expended on trying to move and comprehend things there, rather than move and comprehend things at home.

You see, unlike some people (or unlike what they imagine, anyway), my brain has very definite limits. Past that point, it simply refuses to do anything more. My body goes rigid, or limp, or half-rigid and half-limp. Or else, my surroundings go totally blank, or else I see patterns of things but not what the actual objects and such are. Or else, I can't comprehend even the simplest of abstractions, and only experience what is in front of me with no way of reflecting on it until later. Or else, my hand just slams into my head over and over and over until I pass out.

My entire life is a constant and sustained effort to piece comprehension, movement, and thought together in a semblance of something vaguely functional. The way that I do this best -- in the terms the rest of the world will understand, anyway -- is in writing. All bets are off on everything else.

At any rate, I'm glad the conference I went to recently was not full of people with your attitude. It was full of people who, like me, put a ton of effort into our lives, but the results are different.

Some people there are starting to type better, it takes all the effort they can use just to move their fingers across a keyboard. And some work very hard to voice their thoughts after they type them. I dare you to tell one of them they're not trying hard enough if they put in all that effort and still can't dress themselves or cook a meal. Actually, I don't, because that wouldn't be a very nice (or accurate) thing to say.

I put a lot of effort there into things like not banging my head, and into comprehending and responding to my surroundings on a pretty basic level. Sometimes, even while concentrating absolutely as hard as I could on walking, for instance, what would happen was I'd lose touch with where I was walking to or even the idea of anything abstract like "walking to a place," and run over and run in circles around a pattern on the rug.

I work really hard to walk across a room and get where I'm going, and sometimes actually manage it. It took me years to be able to form a walking-path around my apartment so that I could walk around it in a circle, then I had trouble getting off that circle to go into the kitchen or bathroom. I spent most of my day in that apartment, even with services, sitting in one spot, because whatever my effort was, going from a sitting to a standing position, and crossing lines that were on the floor (that I could not remove because of the apartment complex's policy on renovations), was just not going to happen most of the time. Shortly before I finally moved out of that apartment, I became so severely dehydrated that my blood pressure dropped to something around (probably below, as it was impossible to get up and measure it at its lowest) 80/40, because no amount of effort let me drink water regularly without assistance (and believe me, I was putting in the effort).

But I shouldn't have to say any of this in order for you to believe me. You should grasp that when a person states they know their limits, they might actually have a fair clue about their limits, maybe a fair bit of a better clue than you do.

Someone once told me that there's nothing worse in learning to do something, than someone who's just enough better than you at doing that thing that huge amounts of effort make them able to do it. Because they'll assume that if you put in huge amounts of effort, you could do it. And they'll totally miss the accomplishments you do make, because they're too focused on what you're not doing, and they're not noticing what you are managing to do with all that effort because they're assuming that if the results don't exist, the effort doesn't exist.

It's like someone said recently, elsewhere. Some people are built for running. Some people are very much not. But a person who's mostly not built for running who trains at running, is going to be better than a total couch potato who's built for running. But if the two trained equally well (or equally poorly), the person built for running is going to always do better.

Here's a quote from a guy who has more difficulty with these things than I do, but not as much more as you might think:

Nick Pentzell wrote:
Most of you live in bodies that do what your brain tells them to do. I don't. I command. I ask. I wheedle. I plead and sometimes my body responds, but sometimes it doesn't or it makes clumsy, ill-directed attempts to do my bidding. I send out directions as if they were the lost and windblown letters of an inept skywriter, and I take in information all at once, like a hand calculator trying to add, subtract, multiply and divide all at once while computing Einstein's Theory of Relativity. My circuits often fry in overload.


That is an amazingly descriptive way of talking about what I have to do in my head to get perception and movement and thought and everything to coincide in most areas, and my experiences aren't that far off from Nick's. That overload he talks about means that as long as I'm continuing to try to function, my capacities drop off sharply and take a total nosedive. That is what hitting limits means to me. They're not some abstract thing to be transcended that exist only in my mind, they're that brick wall I bash into when trying to do such everyday things as comprehend my environment in certain respects. There are some things I'm very good at (such as writing), but even those only happen some of the time.

I've worked incredibly hard to get where I'm at, it doesn't mean I can get everywhere every other person is at. Maybe in 30 years I'll be able to cook or something, but for someone who was barely starting to understand some basic aspects of my environment (such as "what pain is", "what communication is for", "how to reliably recognize and move my body", "how to attach words to thoughts", and "how to resolve a bunch of confusing information into things like objects") at the age when you seem to think I was just "limiting myself" somehow by not magically figuring out how to cook in the meantime, I was doing pretty darn well for myself. (And those are things I still forget and have to relearn regularly in many cases.) But, pretty darn well for me, still entailed starvation any way you sliced it. I was in fact defying every single low expectation of what my life was supposed to be like and then some, but someone judging by the impossible standards of cooking, housekeeping, and toileting and so forth, would not have noticed I was doing well. (As you haven't noticed, because you've assumed I was starting at a much more advanced level in these areas.)

I'm also pretty slow at picking up on a limit, so often I'd believe I could do something, and screw it up several times, bash into various limits (including at times back-to-back seizures that scared the crap out of the people around me in terms of safety), repeat this until someone finally pointed out to me that this was way outside my capacity. I had a self-image similar to a woman in an autobiography I read who believed that the reason she couldn't walk as a kid was because she just wasn't trying hard enough and that if she really tried hard enough she'd suddenly walk and shock everyone. (She had spinal muscular atrophy and could never walk a single step.) She got that kind of self-image by listening to physical therapists who sounded a lot like you. At any rate, I honestly believed I could do a lot of things that were so far outside my actual capacity as to be laughable, and I tried doing those things to the point of literal physical collapse.

So, yes, please walk up to me when I can't remember what a "person" is, let alone what the "words" are that are coming out of their mouth (and probably can't tell that these water-like noises of "words" are coming out of that bizarre moving thing called "mouth", for that matter), and can't move this "body" thing that I don't even realize is attached to something called "me", and explain to me again why I should be able to do a thing called "cook" to something called a "meal" with something called "food" in multiple steps, or I'm just not doing something called "trying" hard enough, and after all my total incomprehension of you and non-response to you is just created by my mind somehow. It should prove interesting. But first you'll have to flap your arms and fly to my apartment, if you really want me to believe you have no limits.

Seriously, if everything were as you say, then all autistic people would be so-called "high-functioning" and so forth. (I don't believe in the label as meaningful, but boy is it tempting sometimes when confronted with this level of ignorance about the amount some people have to work to put together just the basic bare elements of movement and perception.)


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r_mc
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19 Sep 2006, 6:49 am

Hi everyone,

Thanks for replying to my post. I'm sorry I've not been able to reply to individual posts, but I've had a bit of a problem with time mismanagement recently and have barely had time to get my work done, let alone go online.

I'm still uncomfortable at the prospect of joining a group, but I may look into it. I can also see the points that anbuend makes about these groups. I can see how a support group might become a magnet for the emotionally needy, and I can't stand the "oh but if you just try a bit harder..." mentality. My parents are very much in that camp. Whenever I'm at home and I do something they consider aspergers related they tell me off as if I were a child (I'm in my 20s), and tell me that I've come a long way and that if I just pay a bit more attention/try a little harder then I'll overcome my "problem". I cannot express here how much I hate this. Many of the things they have a go at me about now they ignored before they found out about aspergers syndrome. It makes me want to emigrate.

SamuraiSaxen- I think you may be right about the "otherkin" I mentioned- he was also very isolated from his family (didn't get on with his adoptive mother following the death of his adoptive father when he was young). BTW, your english is actually very good- kudos to you for learning! Superfantastic- I think you're right about the selfishness, but in his case the arrogance was more along the lines of "why should I have to talk to/listen to/respect YOU, you pitiful human! I'm a GREAT FAE LORD!".

So thanks again, I'll try to get more involved with any future discussions.

r_mc



Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 2:13 pm

Sorry anbuend for offending you and not leaving you to wallow in your self pity.

Show me one person who can flap their arms and fly and Ill learn to do it too.

Show me something a person can do and I can do it even if I have to work on it 20 hours a day for years (some things Ive done this with).

Yeah you've got it rough but thank you ever so much for belittling my efforts like others cant possibly understand how you feel or have been in your position. I find that rather insulting.

The difference is some of us dont give up just because its hard.

It might be beyond your limits today but it is possible to expand your limits. If you give up though it will always be beyond your reach.

If you dont like it tough go ahead and feel sorry for yourself but Im not going to feel sorry for you much less myself.

Hate me if you want think Im being mean but Im living proof that nothing is impossible and someone like you can do the things Ive learned to do.

Its painful its incredibly hard but impossible? Only if you give up.


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Hazelwudi
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19 Sep 2006, 2:41 pm

This is mostly directed to Fraya and Anbuend:

The human will is a marvelous thing... but there is a limit as to what can be repaired with just one's will.

For a few years, as an undergrad I lived in a dormitory with an open hallway.... on the seventh floor. (Distance-wise, it was more like a 9th floor... the ground floor and the lobby didn't fall into the numbering scheme.) I was often depressed back then, and often tempted to jump. It would have been so easy, too...

I refused to do it. Not only would it have been illogical, but it would have pleased too many people. This is willpower. And yet, quintuple this amount of willpower would not magically make me normal, yes?

It is not evolutionarily sound for a young female to kill herself. It is likewise not evolutionarily sound for a person to sit there surrounded by filth while he starves to death and does nothing to remedy the situation.

Some suicides are quick, some are slow... and what is sitting in filth and starving, but the slow route?

If you're incredibly clumsy (Anbuend, you make yourself sound a great deal more clumsy than even I am) ... ok, you might somehow end up breaking your nose with your own knee en-route to food, or something equally spastic and embarassing. But you know what? If you make it to the food, you might have a broken nose and be embarassed, but you're not starving anymore.

I would also point out that you do not in fact have to cook worth a damn in order to open a can, put the stuff inside in a bowl, nuke it in the microwave for a few minutes, then eat it. If being able to cook worth a damn were necessary to survival, I would have died decades ago. If you possess enough gross motor coordination to make it to the kitchen in the first place and enough fine motor coordination to be able to type, nuking a can of chili should be within your capacities. :P

Anbuend, is your primary problem your clumsiness, or your self-hatred? I wonder....



Last edited by Hazelwudi on 19 Sep 2006, 2:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

CanyonWind
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19 Sep 2006, 2:43 pm

Fraya

Since there's nothing you can't do, why don't you get elected president.

Then you can brag all day about how wonderful you are.

Maybe somebody will even be impressed.


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Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 3:01 pm

Quote:
Anbuend, is your primary problem your clumsiness, or your self-hatred? I wonder....


Exactly.

CanyonWind I said hate me if you want I dont care I dont think Im wonderful I dont care if anyone else thinks I am all I know is I worked my ass off to the point of literally killing myself to get where I am and others giving up just because its hard pisses me off to no end.


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krex
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19 Sep 2006, 3:36 pm

Anbuend....I am sorry ...some people will never "get it"....Your words werent wasted on me and I imagine others.If there is such a thing as "reincarnation" perhaps some self-righteous people will have the opportunity to experience what you have....that seems the only way to get through to some folks.I am
glad you finally got the services you needed so that you can have the extra energy to write.As I said,its not a wasted effort for some of us.


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Aeturnus
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19 Sep 2006, 3:39 pm

anbuend wrote:
Hmm, I vaguely remember being at a support group for autistic adults where I was pretty much at starvation level all the time, because I couldn't cook no matter how hard I "pushed myself," and people there were telling me "But it's easy" and trying to get me to try a bunch of things I'd already tried, or to do a bunch of things that were as far beyond my abilities as cooking is. I can imagine how that'd look to someone who assumed everyone had all the same abilities as them as if I "wasn't trying," but to me it looked as if pretty much everyone there was totally ignorant about the fact that not everyone autistic has the same abilities to begin with. :?

I'm never going to thank them for that, in fact I quit attending after realizing that the effort it took to listen to them say useless stuff like that was taking away from the effort I could spend on more useful things.


That sounds like typical theory of mind issues taken to extremes. I imagine this particular group was geared towards those whom are having serious problems. I don't see that in the group that I attend. Most tend to just talk about things that interest them and are aware that others do have different interests. They just become less talkative when things don't interest them. As far as trying to push their qualities onto me, no I don't get that.

I also think they were just trying to help you. Cooking is relatively easy for me, and I would kind of be surprised at someone who could not heat something up in a microwave. Sounds a bit like they were handing advice, but I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure.

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Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 3:40 pm

I have experienced what he has and your calling me self-righteous for not pitying him and letting him give up and call living his life "impossible"?


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krex
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19 Sep 2006, 3:49 pm

yep


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Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 4:18 pm

Pitying someone is believing your superior to them.. self pity is believing the people pitying you are right.

If you dont like being clumsy practice and improve your balance and manual dexterity if you cant concentrate then practice it and learn meditation if you dont like something about yourself change it dont just whine and complain about it.

Waah Im clumsy waah I cant concentrate waah I cant take care of myself waah its too hard to fix these things so Ill just call it impossible and be cynical about it and when Im helpless like this people are nice to me and I need their approval so I dont really want to change.

To hell with that sh*t.

Yeah Ive been there and done that and finally just told them all to take their pity and shove it where the sun dont shine.

The only thing keeping him back is himself so no Im not buying his excuses because thats all they are.

Yeah it makes me sound like a b*tch but letting him sit on his rump isnt doing him any good.

If he wanted advice on ways to improve the things about himself he doesnt like that would be a different story.. like I said Ive been in his place so I know what worked for me.

But instead he wants to rant about how hes so helpless and its too hard so everyone should pity him and feel sorry for him and take care of him blah blah it grates on my nerves.


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CanyonWind
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19 Sep 2006, 4:39 pm

Fraya

I don't hate you. I just got mad about one thing you said. You'll have to work much harder to earn my hatred. I'm interested in hearing viewpoints whose perspective differs from mine, and you seem pretty well qualified for that. Sometimes I even agree with you.

I do not doubt that you have worked hard for the things you have accomplished, but I think it's ignorant and heartless to tell someone who has failed at something that they just didn't try hard enough. Sometimes that is the case, but not always. I believe that life in the real world has limitations, and that some of these can be overcome by effort and some cannot.

I took up ice skating a couple of years ago, in my fifties. I've gone maybe twenty times. It's fun, even though I sometimes fall down and crash into other skaters, but if I wanted to become a professional hockey player, I don't think any amount of work would result in me accomplishing that goal.

Nobody has ever been impressed with my singing, so I don't think I could become an opera singer, no matter how hard I worked at it.

This could be a long list, I'll spare you except to say that some limitations are less obvious but just as real, and that some potential dreams are easier to live without than others.

People who are successful in any endeavor have usually worked hard to achieve that success. It doesn't follow that anyone who is not successful did not work hard enough. You will not convince me otherwise on this one point, because I have had the experience of working very hard, doing my best and failing. I do not expect you to agree, and I am forced to the conclusion that you ain't been there.


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They murdered boys in Mississippi. They shot Medgar in the back.
Did you say that wasn't proper? Did you march out on the track?
You were quiet, just like mice. And now you say that we're not nice.
Well thank you buddy for your advice...
-Malvina


Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 5:02 pm

No I havent been there because Ive never accepted failure.

If at first I dont succeed I try again until I do Im just stubborn that way.

Im not saying he can be the best ever at anything he wants but its unreasonable to believe it is impossible for him to aquire enough motor control or mental self control to do simple everyday tasks.

Hes obviously intelligent but also obviously easily discouraged and cynical when it comes to others trying to get him motivated.

His own self hate and lack of self confidence is his main limitation and those are not excusable handicaps to me.


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krex
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19 Sep 2006, 5:03 pm

Do you know the difference between pity and empathy?I dont assume I know this individuals reality or yours....but I know that I have felt frustration at my limitations and appriciation when I have overcome my own challenges .I dont feel superior to someone else based on their limitations and challenges,why would I.It isnt logical.If facing your own challenges has made you such a bitter and judgemental person...You have won a battle and lost the war.That ,I do think ,is a waste because your humor and intelligence is being lost on your blind conviction that your experience is the exact same as every other human and what worked for you must work for everyone.This is simply delusional thinking.(theory of mind?)Your approach could alienate the very people you seem so passionately want to help.Yes,sometimes people need a kick in the ass to get moving...but not everybody all the time.Sometimes a hand up is what is needed or information to make better decisions...point being ...People are different...what motivates them is different.


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Fraya
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19 Sep 2006, 5:12 pm

Overcoming challenges is what makes a person stronger mentally and physically.

When you lend a person a hand in a battle which is not your own you are taking their challenge away from them and stealing the strength they would have gained from it.

You leech it from them making them weaker and less capable of dealing with the next problem.

It might make you feel better but your not always doing them a favor in the long run.

If he really cant do it on his own and needs help because the burden is too big for him alone Im willing to help but I wont do the work for him and besides that.. he doesnt want help he just wants to give up and that just makes me want to smack him.

I dont assume everyone is like me but I know every accomplishment in life is 1% inspiration and 99% grueling work.

If you are unwilling to do the work you will never succeed.

I dont know if what worked for me will work for others but when they are unwilling to try Im not going to pity them. If they at least try then Id be happy to work with them and find something that does work.

You dont want to know how much trial and error and months of being covered head to toe with painful bruises it took to gain some semblance of coordination but if I had given up it would have all been pointless.

Like I said Ive been in his shoes so I can empathize yes but that empathy is being overwhelmed by a strong dislike for his self-defeating attitude.

That and Im having a bad day so my tongue is a bit sharper than usual Im sorry :P


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One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
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"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane