No wonder most Aspies have such low self-esteem!

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Joe90
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11 Jul 2019, 6:22 pm

This thread is 8 years old...and I don't even remember writing it.


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cyberdad
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11 Jul 2019, 7:21 pm

What have you learned in the last 8 years?



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11 Jul 2019, 7:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:
What have you learned in the last 8 years?


More social skills.


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Mona Pereth
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11 Jul 2019, 8:57 pm

Joe90 wrote:
This thread is 8 years old...and I don't even remember writing it.

Have your feelings about the topic of the thread (including the double standards mentioned in the thread) changed since then? If so, how?


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Joe90
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12 Jul 2019, 2:08 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
This thread is 8 years old...and I don't even remember writing it.

Have your feelings about the topic of the thread (including the double standards mentioned in the thread) changed since then? If so, how?


Not really. I still get mad with double standards, but not the same examples I wrote in this OP.


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DemophobicKlingon
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12 Jul 2019, 5:11 am

This definitely is a big part of it, and you do a good job of putting it into words. I've had thoughts about this phenomena but couldn't quite fully wrap words around it.

There are a lot of double standards out there. We don't want to break the social rules but when it comes to being assertive, we end up taking it to the opposite extreme and losing confidence.

I find something somewhat related is when I learn something that I have been doing is a social faux pa, I get overly obsessed over social rules. In order to get by, I suppose someone has to teach us in some way or another but the way they do it can lead to some damage. I do want to be socially acceptable but one reason why I tend to have social anxiety is worrying about doing the wrong thing and screwing up, and I notice it a lot when other people do it, similar to what you did.


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12 Jul 2019, 6:57 am

This thread should be named “no wonder most aspies have such crippling anxiety”! I couldn’t put OP’s thoughts into better words if I wanted to.


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12 Jul 2019, 7:10 am

The truth is, there are different contexts which change how the rules of what is acceptable/unacceptable are understood. An obvious example is that it is appropriate to make a provocative joke among a small group of close friends, but is inappropriate to do so among a large group at work. From the other end of the spectrum, it might be perfectly appropriate to read a book and ignore everyone around you on the subway, but to do so at a large party is inappropriate.

There are many factors which affect the appropriateness of behavior, such as social status, severity of the situation, being in a work environment, recent events that have happened (especially ones that made people sad/angry), how private an area is, which individuals are present, how likely it is for someone else to overhear you, and so on.

People with ASD's brains are better at focusing on one task intensely, at the expense of the ability to focus on many tasks simultaneously. This makes it really hard to, on the fly, figure out all of the factors that go into how a certain situation is going to play out and adjust accordingly. I think this also makes it harder for ASD people to understand where NT people are coming from. It makes it hard to perceive two different situations as distinct instead of the same, and also hard to perceive two similar situations as the same instead of different.



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12 Jul 2019, 7:27 am

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And don't say ''it's not what you say it's the way you say it'' or ''you probably do it at the wrong time'' because it's not about that. I am good at mimicking NT behaviour, and I observe NT behaviour every day, and I know what's right and what's wrong. I'm not sure if it all just depends on how popular you are, but it just seems so unfair how NTs can get away with being rude ot nasty to us but we're never allowed to rude or nasty to anyone else without us being considered ''the problem''.

Here's some examples:-

An Aspie girl learns it is inappropriate to stare at other people and so she doesn't do it, she only glances up at people to see who they are then looks away and carries on going about her business. But she catches people staring at her quite often, even though she knows full well that she doesn't go out looking unusual or acting in any notable way that is considered noticable and weird. So she learns that staring at other people is inappropriate, but other people staring at her is totally appropriate, and so this damage her self-esteem and gets her into a state and makes herself feel hated.

Another scenario is, an Aspie boy has learnt never to accidentally insult people by giving their honest opinion on their behaviour or looks, but he gets NTs criticising him non-stop about his behaviour and how he looks, so thinking it's OK for people to point out all of his quirks but him never being allowed to point out anybody else's quirks makes him feel very downhearted about himself and makes him actually believe that he's bad, causing self-esteem issues.

Anyone with me on this? There are loads of other examples like these to put down, but these are all I can think of at the moment and they actually describe the way I feel but I changed it to third person because it makes it look less like I'm just ranting on. Is this why some of us, including me, suffer with self-esteem issues?


This all seems to me like a moral myopia.


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12 Jul 2019, 2:16 pm

I think I can word it better now, but it's not NTs who say such confusing things to me, it's generally Aspies here!

Like if I wrote a post here about ignoring a salesman because I'm having a bad day, and the salesman was offended because I ignored him, most of the replies here would most likely be like "oh, you are extremely rude, you should never ignore a salesman, even if you are having a bad day they don't know that, you should always politely tell them you're not interested". But if the boot was on the other foot, meaning if I was a salesman and a passerby turned their head the other way to avoid having to talk to me, and I got upset by it and posted about here, the replies would most likely be like "oh, they're not being rude really, it's nothing personal, maybe they were having a bad day, you should consider what could be going on in their head, and a lot of people do find salesmen annoying".

So whichever the situation, I'm expected to have more empathy for the other party, while the other party needn't have empathy for me because they don't know me. It's all very confusing.


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12 Jul 2019, 2:37 pm

IstominFan wrote:
"We all learn at our own pace." That hurts when you're the slow learner, especially at social things, when you're not slow otherwise.

These days, most things people say to bolster my self-confidence winds up having the opposite effect, driving me deeper into a hole. Only positive action, not words, will help me move forward at this point.



Yeah just imagine if you learn slower than most people, then they get annoyed with you and think you are not listening or think you must be low intelligent. At least if they think you're low intelligent, they still treat you better. Or just imagine if they know you are smart so they think you are just being willful.


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12 Jul 2019, 2:41 pm

In my case I am pretty sure people picked up on there being something 'different' about me, I don't think I was ever able to put on an NT act.

Also not so sure its that you 'couldn't' criticize other people, just more like if you're the unpopular kid being ostracized the other kids aren't going to take your side on anything because they don't also want to be unpopular and get bullied. At least that is how it was for me.


Of course I had some better years than others, I had some friends or kids I was at least friendly with sometimes but also the chronic bullying and ostracism. Of course it wrecked my confidence...I am still working on confidence issues and I'm going to be 30 next month.


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12 Jul 2019, 2:47 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I think I can word it better now, but it's not NTs who say such confusing things to me, it's generally Aspies here!

Like if I wrote a post here about ignoring a salesman because I'm having a bad day, and the salesman was offended because I ignored him, most of the replies here would most likely be like "oh, you are extremely rude, you should never ignore a salesman, even if you are having a bad day they don't know that, you should always politely tell them you're not interested". But if the boot was on the other foot, meaning if I was a salesman and a passerby turned their head the other way to avoid having to talk to me, and I got upset by it and posted about here, the replies would most likely be like "oh, they're not being rude really, it's nothing personal, maybe they were having a bad day, you should consider what could be going on in their head, and a lot of people do find salesmen annoying".

So whichever the situation, I'm expected to have more empathy for the other party, while the other party needn't have empathy for me because they don't know me. It's all very confusing.


In my opinion its rude for sales-people and even non profit organization people to set up in a place where people have no choice but to be confronted. It even pisses me off that girl scouts hang out right in front of store entrances...I mean if they could move to the side enough so people can choose to just walk by...or choose to go up to the girl scouts to get cookies that would be nice.

I mean the last thing I want to do when I am going to the grocery store is be bombarded by people out front asking if I want to buy things...I think that's rude.


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Joe90
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12 Jul 2019, 3:15 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I think I can word it better now, but it's not NTs who say such confusing things to me, it's generally Aspies here!

Like if I wrote a post here about ignoring a salesman because I'm having a bad day, and the salesman was offended because I ignored him, most of the replies here would most likely be like "oh, you are extremely rude, you should never ignore a salesman, even if you are having a bad day they don't know that, you should always politely tell them you're not interested". But if the boot was on the other foot, meaning if I was a salesman and a passerby turned their head the other way to avoid having to talk to me, and I got upset by it and posted about here, the replies would most likely be like "oh, they're not being rude really, it's nothing personal, maybe they were having a bad day, you should consider what could be going on in their head, and a lot of people do find salesmen annoying".

So whichever the situation, I'm expected to have more empathy for the other party, while the other party needn't have empathy for me because they don't know me. It's all very confusing.


In my opinion its rude for sales-people and even non profit organization people to set up in a place where people have no choice but to be confronted. It even pisses me off that girl scouts hang out right in front of store entrances...I mean if they could move to the side enough so people can choose to just walk by...or choose to go up to the girl scouts to get cookies that would be nice.

I mean the last thing I want to do when I am going to the grocery store is be bombarded by people out front asking if I want to buy things...I think that's rude.


I suppose they bombard you because they want to sell things by acting forceful. But if people choose to ignore you, I don't think that's rude really. They just don't want to be pestered or interrupted, especially if they're in a hurry.
Sometimes you have to ignore, because sometimes if you make eye contact and say you're not interested, they still have your attention and can still block your path and try to force you into something. It's happened to me one time: I had a salesman in the street try to get me to join an online money-making business, something I just was not interested in. I smiled and said that I wasn't interested, but he literally blocked my way so that I couldn't get past unless I ran off, and I even said I had a bus to catch, but he was extremely insistent and said, "it's OK, this won't take a minute if you let me", and he started asking for my name and email address so that I could sign up for this stupid thing I wasn't even interested in. He was so friendly, and good-looking, that I felt guilty to hurry off, so I ended up giving him my email address. Then the next thing I knew I had loads of emails in my inbox all about this money-making thing. I just unsubscribed and deleted all of the messages, and I never heard from it since.

So that is why I do tend to ignore salespeople. Looking at them and saying you're not interested is still giving them your attention, and they will use that to try to guilt you into stopping. I'm not usually a rude person at all, but sometimes you have to just keep your head down if you really don't want to be pestered by salespeople.


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12 Jul 2019, 4:17 pm

We used to have kfisherx here and she wrote once on her page on Facebook that kids with good social skills can get away with breaking social rules. The special ed kids don't get away with it so the NTs always get on their case about it and not care what the normal kids do. I think this is what happened to me as a kid.

I also read how special ed kids are more behaved than normal kids but that wasn't the case for me because I did not accept double standards and wouldn't stand for it so this wasn't true for me, in fact it was all confusing for me. In my mind, how can you expect me to take a rule seriously if no one else is following it. If it is not being followed and they are not getting a consequence for it, then there is no rule about it is there?

I also believe our perspective gets dismissed when we point out the double standard because we are the ones with a disability.


This isn't to be confused with when it's appropriate to do something and not appropriate and reading social cues and knowing when to stop and when people change their own social rules when are alone in a group or with a friend. Like it might be okay to use banter with someone because of how well you both know each other but you wouldn't use banter with other people who don't know you so you wouldn't want to offend them. People also change how they interact depending on how well they know someone. People change their own social rules all the time depending on who they are with. None of this was explained to me as a kid and I think it would have been very helpful if it was. This is something you learn on your own and I had to read about it online and hear it from other NTs. Plus my husband has helped me out with it too.

And it isn't rude to ignore sales people. I don't know any NT who would say you're an as*hole for ignoring one. NTs hate dealing with them too because they are sleazy and want to sell so they will try and push you to buy. Once a sales person asks you in the street or in a mall or something if you want to test a product they are selling, say "no thank you" and move on. Don't stop and let them test their product or else they will pressure you to buy.


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I have a quilt of labels. I had a language disorder and a speech disorder. Then communication disorder NOS. My other diagnoses have been Language Processing disorder, dyspraxia, SPD, OCD, ADD, Asperger’s, anxiety disorder, adjustment disorder, anorexia nervosa. My mom’s labels of me are: eating disorder, anorexia, social anxiety, PTSD, just being sensitive and having the victim complex when I was a kid. And of course she says I’m normal and says the only thing I had as a child was language. Huh? I must have been a shitty person then and maybe a difficult child I was who had to be labeled because of incompetent school staff and mean kids who didn’t accept differences and because I was trying to be “normal.” :/

My blog: https://mynoneabdlthoughts.wordpress.com/