Who Is It, Really, Who Doesn't Understand?

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MindWithoutWalls
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20 Nov 2011, 11:39 pm

Okay, I'm getting the distinct impression, after all my reading of posts here so far, that Aspies understand a lot of stuff quite well, while NTs lack a lot of understanding. So, why is it that Aspies are said to be the ones who "don't get it" all the time? Sure we don't get some things, but NTs don't get a lot of other things. Maybe it's not about who gets it and who doesn't. Maybe it's about who gets which things. I find the idea that NTs automatically have great "theory of mind" a bit silly. Sometimes their grasp of what someone else is thinking or feeling is severely lacking, or else there wouldn't be so much friction. Is it just because they think they don't have to bother, because it's for the rest of the world to adapt to them? Or are they really not able? We work hard at it. I really don't know what they're doing. Sometimes they don't even seem to understand each other. Is that why they don't realize we're talking about anything different when we say we have trouble understanding?

Have I missed something here? It just seems to me that all kinds of things I'm reading here reflect the argument - which I've seen being put forth in various posts - that autism really does represent neurodiversity, not neurodeficiency.

This also seems to fall right in line with the issue of NTs always thinking it's Aspies who exhibit all the wrong behavior and therefore have to change. It's just like having to point out that they often do the same things, or equally wrong things, but they can get away with it much more easily.

All this is so new to me, so pardon me for just realizing what so many around here may already be used to. I always thought I was so unique in my "strangeness" and "annoying behavior". I was so used to the double standard that I accepted it, even though I found it so painful. Posts around here have been real eye-openers. I was already frustrated, my whole life before this. Now I'm frustrated in a whole new way.


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Kail
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20 Nov 2011, 11:47 pm

yahhhhh

I think it's like a two way mirror...

When in doubt, submerge yourself in the work of einstein and other spectrum personality's - adam savage I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Also - a few minutes ago I saw a quote

"For some, having a high-functioning form of this syndrome is a badge of honour, but for others, this disorder is disabling from childhood through old age "



AbleBaker
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21 Nov 2011, 12:02 am

I don't think NTs really understand more - they just think they do. From my observation, people tend to assume that you feel as they do and thay all feel the same together. Since I don't pretend to know what they're feeling I think I'm more open to accepting that people feel differently.

I know for a fact that people misinterpret my facial expressions so they're not understanding me.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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21 Nov 2011, 12:46 am

[sarcasm mode]Well, we can't have the lunatics running the asylum -- it's logically <cough> correct that they lack any and all insight, so why bother asking? (Ok, nowadays there are some researchers who do, Mottron w/Dawson -- woohoo!) -- And especially if they make some observations that might mess up some academic theories and thus mess up some professional reputations and thus mess up some careers.[/sarcasm] I.e. if ASD truly means "can't read any non-verbal signals," then how can Temple Grandin look at cows and sense what they're feeling? The truth is apparently more complicated than that.

And that reminds me of the critique that Dawson did of some of the oxytocin research. Basically, the result was that oxytocin increased group bonding. Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.

But anyway, yeah to the OP's point.



ictus75
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21 Nov 2011, 1:27 am

NTs tend to multitask and see the "big picture" better. They are often better at pulling different parts and ideas together into a unified whole. Aspies tend to focus on one area, like their special interests. We may be extreme experts on the subjects that interest us, but tend to be at a disadvantage when outside of our interests.

NTs also have the advantage of handling social situations & networking better, which allows them to put together different ideas and deals. But it also seems that NTs, for all their emotions & empathy, often fail to be able to understand others, like Autistics. This seems to be a blind spot in their world.


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DJFester
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21 Nov 2011, 6:25 am

ictus75 wrote:
NTs tend to multitask and see the "big picture" better. They are often better at pulling different parts and ideas together into a unified whole. Aspies tend to focus on one area, like their special interests. We may be extreme experts on the subjects that interest us, but tend to be at a disadvantage when outside of our interests.

NTs also have the advantage of handling social situations & networking better, which allows them to put together different ideas and deals. But it also seems that NTs, for all their emotions & empathy, often fail to be able to understand others, like Autistics. This seems to be a blind spot in their world.


I couldn't have put it any better than that. +1


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Sweetleaf
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21 Nov 2011, 6:34 am

Well it seems there are some things I get that even a lot of NTs don't and sometimes it just takes me a bit longer to 'get it.' but not everyone cares to wait that extra time for me to get it.



PastFixations
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21 Nov 2011, 7:02 am

I think that... Aspies get it at times and NTs can get it, only NTs believe they are the more dominant. "Oooo, get you, the NT with voodoo powers."



Burnbridge
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21 Nov 2011, 7:39 am

Mind w/o Walls wrote:
Sometimes their grasp of what someone else is thinking or feeling is severely lacking, or else there wouldn't be so much friction.


A salient point. Truly though, it's everyone who truly doesn't understand. AS, NT, Bipole, Schitzoid, doesn't matter. Everyone "knows" some things, and doesn't know other things.

No human can every truly know another. We have only our perceptions and judgements of others to "know" them by. And what we really know are our perceptions and judgements of them, not the people themselves.

Even the Sciences that we trust and believe in so implicitly are disproven and rewritten every few years (or every few hundred years.)

Admitting that you know nothing is the first step in gaining wisdom, no? Admitting you know nothing is a bigger "leap of faith" for NTs than anyone else. Anyone in a neurological minority is going to be predisposed towards wondering why they are "different," whereas those in the majority have the privilege of assuming they are correct.

In reality, though, is anyone ever "correct?" Humans brains are quite small and limited compared to the grand scope of the universe, and it's highly unlikely that human knowledge will ever be complete on any subject.


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Burnbridge
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21 Nov 2011, 7:42 am

Oh, my. I do seem to have waxed philosophical over the grammar of the thread's title. Terribly sorry about that.


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Jellybean
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21 Nov 2011, 7:51 am

I have found that the management/owners of the care company (autism specific) where I live are about as interested in my autism advice as having a mosquito bite them for 2 hours straight. Not very interested in other words. I live autism. I live with other people with autism. I live in their house and so I know what is working and what isn't. I actually worked out that one of my friends was very seriously (mentally) unwell because no one else could see past his autism. Thankfully he is now getting the help he needs, but it took a serious incident for anyone to give him the help...

In terms of the theory of mind thing, it works both ways. My theory of mind is between non-existent and poor. I know that we are supposed to struggle with this. What bugs me is that people who call themselves 'autism professionals' seem unable or unwilling to 'read' me correctly. If I misbehave it must be because I am angry with someone... or maybe a TV show I like got cancelled... Or maybe I am missing my rabbit... I smash things that I find sensory wise uncomfortable, but they see that as 'She is smashing things because she is peed off with me'. They also have this strange idea that when I am shouting, I am shouting at THEM. No matter how many times I assure them I am just shouting, they still take it so damned personally! Gah! I thought if they had good theory of mind and knew about autism that they should be able to understand what is going on in my head!


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21 Nov 2011, 8:00 am

I've found that there are some things I don't get that NTs often consider downright simple (like, say, cooking directions), but I've found that things that come easily to me, some NTs wonder how on Earth I was able to come up with such a thing and implement it so easily (this usually happens with computer troubleshooting, but has been other stuff as well - I somehow end up with solutions that are a bit idiosyncratic and still work).

One thing that annoys me is how some NTs will assert that certain concepts are de facto difficult or impossible for autistic people to grasp, or start trying to explain how autistic brains function to autistic people. Since they're usually wrong, it's frustrating to hear.



jackbus01
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21 Nov 2011, 8:21 am

Jellybean wrote:
I have found that the management/owners of the care company (autism specific) where I live are about as interested in my autism advice as having a mosquito bite them for 2 hours straight. Not very interested in other words. I live autism. I live with other people with autism. I live in their house and so I know what is working and what isn't. I actually worked out that one of my friends was very seriously (mentally) unwell because no one else could see past his autism. Thankfully he is now getting the help he needs, but it took a serious incident for anyone to give him the help...

In terms of the theory of mind thing, it works both ways. My theory of mind is between non-existent and poor. I know that we are supposed to struggle with this. What bugs me is that people who call themselves 'autism professionals' seem unable or unwilling to 'read' me correctly. If I misbehave it must be because I am angry with someone... or maybe a TV show I like got cancelled... Or maybe I am missing my rabbit... I smash things that I find sensory wise uncomfortable, but they see that as 'She is smashing things because she is peed off with me'. They also have this strange idea that when I am shouting, I am shouting at THEM. No matter how many times I assure them I am just shouting, they still take it so damned personally! Gah! I thought if they had good theory of mind and knew about autism that they should be able to understand what is going on in my head!


That really strikes me as strange. You would think they would care. That is, that the people there at the house would know what works and what doesn't.



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21 Nov 2011, 8:25 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
[sarcasm mode]Well, we can't have the lunatics running the asylum -- it's logically <cough> correct that they lack any and all insight, so why bother asking? (Ok, nowadays there are some researchers who do, Mottron w/Dawson -- woohoo!) -- And especially if they make some observations that might mess up some academic theories and thus mess up some professional reputations and thus mess up some careers.[/sarcasm] I.e. if ASD truly means "can't read any non-verbal signals," then how can Temple Grandin look at cows and sense what they're feeling? The truth is apparently more complicated than that.

And that reminds me of the critique that Dawson did of some of the oxytocin research. Basically, the result was that oxytocin increased group bonding. Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.

But anyway, yeah to the OP's point.


I wonder how much research out there is tainted with confirmation bias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias



MindWithoutWalls
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21 Nov 2011, 2:44 pm

I'm seeing so many great posts here, from existentialist insight to relevant personal experience to a grand point that's useful in so many arguments, not just this one, and backed up by a good link... I hardly know where to begin to respond. Wrong Planet has turned out to be such a great place to land! I have to say, I've never had such a great time online, posting in any forum. :thumleft:


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swbluto
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21 Nov 2011, 2:55 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.


Interesting. The pictures that I choose for my avatar suggest that I don't lack in oxytocin since there's a clear preference for cuteness and mods have noticed a pattern of exclusionary behavior from me in the past, so I'm guessing this is probably indicative of relatively higher levels of oxytocin. I don't know if it's high as "normals", but it seems higher than the board's average. So, yeah, I guess the link between oxytocin, favoritsm and exclusionary behavior seems to exist.