Aspies and "Learned Helplessness"

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I made no sweeping claims, so don't say I'm wrong on those grounds. I didn't say all would become independent or even most, I just said I believe there would be more would, and spoke for myself. 100001 is still more than 100000. The problem, of course, is we don't know who sinks and who swims until we throw them in the matter, and dependence is better than dying.

I'm not sure I buy this explanation as being indicative of anything. I've seen successful autistic people who post here who were diagnosed as children, as adults, or never officially diagnosed at all. I've seen autistic people who have had a lot more trouble making progress and functioning as adults are expected to function who were diagnosed as children, as adults, or not at all. It may be that this kind of thing is a factor for some, but I would hesitate to label it as a primary cause. Autistic people, whatever label we've been diagnosed with, have a wide range of skills and abilities, and often these skills and abilities are simply not conducive to adult functioning, especially without assistance. Some function a lot better, or have more assistance. Finding one singular cause and blaming it strikes me as misleading.

I won't argue that children should be strictly taught what they can't and allegedly can never do instead of helping them work with their limitations and emphasize and exploit their strengths, but I don't think this is the problem. I mean, I ended up in the "not able to function as an adult" category and I had my mother fighting against the idea that I had a real disability ever since I was a child.

I started getting put in special classes and schools from sixth grade until I was 16 and quit school but I was never actually diagnosed with anything as far as I know. I'm still not diagnosed with anything now.

My point is that you're on a forum with a lot of people who managed to sink, and a very few who managed to swim, who had to sink or swim, and some of whom have already had a lifetime of hearing how if only one tries harder or applies themself that they'd be able to do all of those things that are so difficult.

Like with Draelynn's post, there seems to be this idea that autistic children are sheltered and coddled from ever having to try hard enough to achieve anything, but I don't think that's true for very many, and I don't even think that diagnosis leads to a sheltered upbringing. The kind of sheltering I've read about from parents who limit their children actually sounds oppressive - like autistic people have to be controlled and managed.

You also have very likely not had to deal with all of the demands that adults typically have to deal with.

It occurs to me some of you have the wrong idea about learned helplessness, its not about being sheltered from difficult situations as a child. Learned helplessness is when an animal or person is subject to negative/unpleasant stimuli they cannot escape. So as a result they would give up on trying to escape the situation or improve it.........and then that mentality sticks with them even if there are ways out of a situation someone with learned helplessness probably wont perceive those ways out or have the motivation to act on that information if they do perceive it.

So abuse or a negative family situation is more likely to cause learned helplessness then sheltering a child from negative/unpleasant stimuli.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Sweetleaf. I grew up this this kind of environment. I was constantly reminded that I was a failure at everything ("can't do anything right, useless, waste of space, an embarrassment, a human abomination, etc). I actually got to the point somewhere around 9 or 10 years old, where I would just apologize for being born whenever they started throwing verbal or physical lashings my way. I didn't choose my parents, they chose me. Reminded me also that since "they paid a boatload of money for me," I was obligated to do their bidding. I was less a child, & more a slave than human. Both my parents pretty much hated me across the board & there was no one else who ever said nice or good things about me around me (within hearing distance even when I got older). Everywhere I went, I was little more than an intruder who annoyed people...no loved ones, no friends, no support, nothing. All I had was me, & by the time I hit 10 years of age, I was a consistent self-loather. It can be difficult when raised like this to learn anything positive at all. Mom always reminded me that I really couldn't do anything right, & that was a huge damper to my self-esteem. It often crushed my spirit just being around her. I certainly wouldn't recommend it. I'm not sure what she gained by whittling away at my self-esteem. I guess it was to make her feel better about herself? Not sure. I did learn to be self-reliant & independent in other ways though. I learned if I wanted to eat I had to make food myself (often enraging my mom in the process-the kitchen was her turf only). I turned out to be a pretty decent cook anyway. I also learned that if I wanted to survive, I'd have to stand up for myself, because no one else would.

But I never tried to escape from my parents or the other abuse I endured. I put up with it on a regular basis. Even after my parents both threatened my life (one verbally in front of witnesses, one with a crazed enraged expression & a knife poised overhead). I still stuck it out. Why? I was reminded there were way worse people out there, & no one liked me anyway. Since no one wanted a "pain in the a$$, piece of crap," where would I go to get away? One of my mom's sisters was a foster mom, & I knew I didn't want to end up in a house like that. She was even worse than mom, & that scared me. All kinds of people reminded me I was a reject, so that lovely tidbit of information became ingrained enough to keep me stuck. Unfortunately, I stayed well into my 20s where the abuse continued. It even continued long after I moved out. It's what I knew & also what I expected to receive. No matter where I went, abuse followed. I have only gotten passed the obligation part with my parents once I hit my 40s. I guess that makes me free now? But all the years of being told I was just a piece of crap that no one wanted (birthmother included), I learned that it was useless to change my situation. Had I known at the time about the qualities of narcissicsm (mother), & Aspergers (father +me), perhaps I could have made better informed choices instead of just doing what I was told.

I hate abuse, but it follows me like a shadow. I've experienced it all my life, mostly in the form of bullying, physical & verbal. I got it from my parents, their family members, peers, teachers, other authority figures, other adults, co-workers, & bosses. I am a bully magnet, & try as hard as I can, I cannot seem to get away from it. If I take it, the bullying continues. If I fight against it, I am an even worse person. SO how do you get out of a mess when you're criticized & damned if you do, & are damned if you don't? So some things I have learned to be productive, & others completely independent. I'm having trouble finding a new job, & it brings out the worst of my insecurities...back to feeling like a useless POS who should have been aborted. Sucks!

Yeah I can kinda relate to that, though my parents where not quite that bad........most of the issues with them had to do with them not getting along with each other. It was normal for me to hear them yelling at each other as I went to sleep most nights there was no escape I could not very well go somewhere else as a child. Also I would question some of my moms methods as a child because looking back a lot of it was borderline verbal abuse as for my dad he said a couple things a few times but with him its more like he'd get really frustrated and overwhelmed with everything and snap at people with my mom it seemed more about trying to control us. Then there was school I was the target the bullies went after teachers and students and again I could not very well walk away from the school as a kid so yes after a while of dealing with all this crap but unable to leave the situation or improve it left me with learned helplessness. I sometimes wish it was easy just to turn off that mental process so I might be better at helping myself.......but its hardly that simple I mean it took years and years for me to get to this point so it would probably take the same to try and improve any.

I know what you mean by feeling like a bully magnet........hell give me a society or internet website with a good reputation for not having bullying and I guarantee the bullies will show themselves. Sometimes, it makes me wonder if I'm just such a horrid person I just bring that side out of even the most considerate, caring of people.

I really think the only reason the bad stuff I endured pushed me towards anything good was because I had so much good to go along with it, so that there were at least some challenges I was able to rise to when I felt compelled. That's what I was trying to convey, not that abuse is a good thing. It still didn't give me capabilities that i simply lacked. I hope I didn't make the wrong impression.

My grandfather was a Marine. My grandmother trained as a nurse during the same era (Second World War, when the training was still much more militaristic, due to it's origins and history). Certain types of thinking and attitude come from those sorts of things. There were also some mental health issues in the family (continuing on down to my mother's struggle with anger), and my grandfather grew up in a large family without much money. Those factors were also significant. On the other hand, my grandparents had very progressive ideas about a lot of things, and my grandfather made his living by his pottery. So, artistic pursuits are valued in my family, and work in the arts is considered a real job. There's also been a lot of genuine love. So, that's the combination I grew up with, because it was my mother's family that I was around the most. The other factor, though, was that my father, who's probably an Aspie himself, had this very picky attitude about how all sorts of things had to be done, so even my mother felt belittled. He also was so stuck on his routines, and so resentful of any disruption, that it was often hard to get a chance to do extra activities that might've been good for us.

My parents told us we were smart, but they also said learning and doing our best were more important than grades. So, while getting poor grades was not a cause for celebration, it wasn't the end of the world. When my older sister discovered she was dyslexic, she got a lot of understanding, but it was not a complete 180 degree turn from how she's been treated before. On the other hand, I always seemed weird, so I got a lot of fallout for that. My parents never said I couldn't be myself. But it was made clear to me by my mother that, if you were going to be different, you had no control over how other's reacted. So, you could either toughen up or conform, but complaining about it was unacceptable. Trouble was, I couldn't conform and couldn't take the bullying. I also couldn't manage any better in school, despite my teachers' badgering about how they thought I was so smart and couldn't understand why I didn't do better. I even got embarrassed publicly for it, but that never did any good.

When people see how well I seem to manage the things I can do now, they may also wonder why I don't do more or better. They either figure it's all easy for me or they think that, if I could come this far, I should be able to take on all the other challenges and win, too. They either don't know that I've worked really hard, or they think that I used to but that I've quit trying, simply because they don't see the struggle itself. And I'm another one who wants to be at peace with myself, the way someone who can't walk could be at peace about it, but who gets criticized for being complacent if I show signs of inner peace and happiness. So, what am I supposed to do? Be miserable all the time in order to prove how incapable I am? Then I'd just be criticized for that!

I am the way I am, and no amount of harping on me about it will make me be some other way. I try hard. I often enough do things I don't like, just so I can get a good result. But I can only do so much. If the average person isn't expected to be able to do everything or be perfect, why are my limitations supposed to go unacknowledged? Why should I have to feel guilty for not being some Aspie equivalent of the NT "superhuman"?

The good news is that there's at least a divide now between people who actually know me and the professionals who don't, instead of everybody lacking understanding and being on my back. Now, if I can just get the professionals and officials to understand, I won't have to worry about having my benefits yanked without having the ability to go back into the workforce. That's my current challenge, and it's taking up almost everything I have to give right now just to try to get properly diagnosed. I haven't quit yet...

Three more things:

1) I think it's very common for people who take a lot of bullying over the years, from all sorts of sources, to think they must be causing it (even in otherwise nice people). That's one of the things bullies try to get you to think, and it's something I've struggled with thinking about myself.

2) I think sometimes asking for help with something when the other person doesn't understand why you need it can be perceived as learned helplessness, even when it isn't.

3) Here are a couple of things I thought might be useful to read in the context of this discussion:

Power Over Children

Wanted

I agree, especially with the last paragraph(which I'm too lazy to quote).

I have to say, though, I've always had somewhat of an "on/off" switch and have never had emotions that seemed to run as deep as most people's (at least not for a substantial period of time. I do feel some things as deeply as others do but it passes really quickly), but in the past, I did have more of a defeatist attitude.

It was partially because I thought I had some kind of unknown defect that could never be explained (before I knew anything about ASD) and also because I had always been treated like I had a ton of problems, even though I was a model student early on and was recommended to go to a private school. I had a lot of social and behavioral issues, never got not that private school for financial reasons and basically gave up on accomplishing anything by middle school.

BUT, I was more of a slacker than someone who really felt depression. When I found out about ASD a few years ago I was like OH WOW YEAH THIS EXPLAIN A LOT, THANKS.

And still, it doesn't explain everything, I'm not a match in a lot of ways but it does explain the unknown defect that I thought I had.

So now that I have this knowledge and more confidence that I'm not just insane, I feel much more...I guess justified in making plans for myself, and especially controlling my environment, like you said. I deal with who I want, when I want, and now do I whatever i need to do to make sure that I'm successful. I know that's not possible for everyone and that it won't always be possible for me (we have to deal with some people we don't like) but I caught out all the people who I didn't relate to and stopped trying to be something I wasn't.

Also, like you said, I think people in the spectrum do need to put in extra effort to control their environment and keep a positive attitude because it REALLY did affect my mental well-being and as much as i hate to admit it, I can ,lose touch with reality quite easily.

LMAO i am in the same boat.

And I'm not blind to my shortcomings but somehow I just can't seem to focus on them.

I know I should care more but I just don't.

No you should not care more...trust me focusing on your shortcomings will just make you feel bad which can negatively effect your entire mental state.

THIS IS MY STORY. As far as your mother goes.

I was treated that way and still am, even though I had of lot of abilities that teachers picked up on early on. She didn't want to hear about these things and still isn't happy when things are going good for me.

And I never necessarily believed it, I've always known that I could do SOMETHING if I wanted to, but until a few years ago, I was kind of hanging on to this mentality because I was in the closet and didn't ever plan on coming out. So, I had basically given up on life even though I knew I had potential, and I was hanging on to this as a way to make me feel justified for it.

And I'm actually still in the closet but am in getting my degree and plan on moving and being out in a few years.

BUT, I feel like a different person. I don't listen to anything my mom says and now I understand that I am free to do whatever I want and that I don't have to explain myself to anyone.

^This. Or else it gets perceived as laziness.

Ok, you got me, I'm 15 years old and have no idea what I'm talking about.

Well, hey, we post to learn from each other. You said stuff that advanced the thread, and everybody's opinion is worth hearing about, even if only to expose new angles to the issue at hand. Your point was worth considering. It's not as though we're immune to the kinds of things that could make anyone else not live up to their potential. I think the problem is that tired old assumption that we're not doing all we can, simply because our capabilities are not properly understood, and we're not doing what other people think we look like we could do. They judge based on what they think is obvious and not on things they can't see. I guess they just don't believe in what they can't see. And if we don't look like we're dragged out from our efforts, they assume we're not (but that we should be), and therefore that we're lazy.

While there are some NTs that live in such poverty, violent surroundings, or other tough circumstances that life always seems to be one desperate move after another or one long, harrowing experience of hanging on by fingernails, this is hardly ideal. It's easy for those who have less dramatic circumstances to shrug and say people should all just do what you have to do, and that's life. But those who have to live that way would probably all, or at least almost all, prefer to actually be able to live life, not simply cling to it in a state of desperation all the time, until they finally die.

What would I do if I had no alternative to working besides the street? Probably end up on the street, where I wouldn't likely last very long. Even if I could manage to work, I'd be one of those with nothing left to give outside of that, because that's pretty much how I was in my early adulthood already (and, eventually, it was like that even when I worked only part time), and I'm not quite so energetic now and have pain more easily. As it is, though, I think there are people around me who value me and would not like to miss out on the things I contribute because of the time that I have and the lifestyle that allows me to develop the skills and talents I possess. I don't just play a drum; I lead the musicians in my group, and the dancers have live music to dance to because of my efforts. Our performances and the classes we've taught have been enjoyed by many. I couldn't have done all that alone, but others clearly wouldn't have done it without someone to urge them on, put forth new ideas, and learn stuff ahead of the group so that I could share it and we'd evolve as a group. It's not just my thinking so. I've been told as much by our current lead dancer.

I'm not just dead weight on society. I do make a contribution. I'm just not able to do enough of it or to do it in an context in which I could make a living at it. That's the nature of artistic pursuits. It's extremely hard to make a living at them. But they're still valuable, and doing them for free means those who don't have enough money to pay for them all the time can still benefit from them. So, I think I'm doing a service to society, not just sucking up resources. But many people view that kind of attitude as just about heretical, which is a shame.