Autism in France: Psychoanalysis, Packing, Other Travesties

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Litzah
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12 Feb 2012, 8:36 pm

Hi,

I'm new on here, and I am from France. I possibly have Aspergers Syndrome though I am not a hundred per cent sure. I was born in the 80s, a time when diagnosis for conditions on the autism spectrum was not developed, though I have to say a doctor mentioned I probably had some form of autism when I was like 3. My parents were afraid to investigate any further and they were ashamed. They used to blame me for being "different", but I think my mother also blamed herself. In the 80s, it seemed like it was always your mother's "fault" if you had such a condition. Years later, well into the 90s, friends of my parents' had a little girl with AS, that lady was blamed right left and centre, by family, then by her daughter's preschool, for the condition.

Whether I have AS or not myself, I am dyspraxic, something that the French seemed to have never heard of, and denied. My parents were denied a GP official diagnosis that might have allowed for me to have more time to complete exams that required coordination or a sense of space in school, exams such as ones in Physical Education, Maths or Geography.

I suffer from chronic depression because it is something that runs in the family. It may also have been a consequence of my AS not being recognized. I am a lesbian and was repeatedly told by psychiatrists that if I were straight, I would not be depressive (?) A pshychiatrist even had the nerves to tell me that at a time I was particularly at risk of suicide, and anorexic.

On the other hand, my perfectly healthy classmates in schools all had to go through speech therapy, it seemed to be the fashion of the time in my school. Everyone who was a bit weird (a tomboy, shy, not good in school etc), had to go.

The French health system, as far as mental health is concerned, seems more worried about pressing on certain treatments according to a certain agenda, a certain ethos or a certain (normative and/or homophobic) view of what society is supposed to be.

I don't live in France anymore so I don't know if things have improved recently. What I do know is that for the past ten years, wheat and gluten have made me very sick. I still have a French GP but she refuses to send me for coeliac disease testing "unless I agree to start eating bread and wheat again for three weeks before the testing". Hum, no doctor, because if I were to eat that much bread, I would not be able to wake up for work in the morning, I'd be too sick.



shubunkin
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13 Feb 2012, 1:00 pm

Hi there,

I am fascinated by the French take on dyslexia, dyspraxia and autistic spectrum. I knew that the French intelligentsia etc... psychoanalysts etc... were v much involved in promoting Lacan, but until I saw this film I had no idea to what extent psychiatry and psychology had also been damaged by these outdated ideas.

I would love to meet the documentarist - does anyone know how to get in touch with her by the way ? Would like to send her my support and gratittude for what she is doing.

I was interested to read your message Litzah, I think it would be good if you posted it also on the introductions section in case it doesn't get viewed. Welcome to WP !

Like you I have to avoid some stuff - with me its mostly caffeine and yeasty bread...



circular
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13 Feb 2012, 2:54 pm

I empathize with you Litzah. I'm in France too and my story is similar to yours.

You don't have to deny what you are. The fact is that it is difficult to be different, but you don't have to be sad about it, because it is a chance. It gives you an original point of view, and it's a very valuable.

You know, if gay people and aspie people exist, it is because they bring something to mankind. It is not because your mom did wrong.



ediself
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14 Feb 2012, 8:50 am

shubunkin wrote:
Hi there,

I am fascinated by the French take on dyslexia, dyspraxia and autistic spectrum. I knew that the French intelligentsia etc... psychoanalysts etc... were v much involved in promoting Lacan, but until I saw this film I had no idea to what extent psychiatry and psychology had also been damaged by these outdated ideas.

I would love to meet the documentarist - does anyone know how to get in touch with her by the way ? Would like to send her my support and gratittude for what she is doing.

I was interested to read your message Litzah, I think it would be good if you posted it also on the introductions section in case it doesn't get viewed. Welcome to WP !

Like you I have to avoid some stuff - with me its mostly caffeine and yeasty bread...

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1625813789
Here's her facebook. you can also go on this page: https://www.facebook.com/psychanalyseautisme , this is her support gang.(it in french but I can translate your messages if anyone struggles ;) )



Litzah
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14 Feb 2012, 6:33 pm

shubunkin wrote:

I was interested to read your message Litzah, I think it would be good if you posted it also on the introductions section in case it doesn't get viewed.


Hi,

I don't mind sharing this experience more widely indeed. Where would you like me to post it again? In the introductions as in the "I'm new" section is it? Dyspraxic me is still a bit lost around this site, sorry! :) Anything that might help...

I finally viewed the documentary myself. Actually, my family is friends with the descendants of Lacan. Bad luck for me, I guess,

Outside of the fact I know their bullshit for having experienced it first hand throughout my childhood, this was actually worse than I expected, and I would like to be involved as much as possible to get this destructive sect (psychoanalysis is NOTHING ELSE) banned. A few comments, coming from my own experience:

I probably have AS, I clearly can talk, I am not a non verbal, low functioning autistic. Having said that, if autistic people are not being exposed to language because their "evil parents" don't bother stimulating them, I would like to mention that my father is a writer and my mother is a translator who translates to and from four different languages, Hardly a non verbal background to grow up in, so.

That old lady with the poxy crocodile reminds me of this ophtalmologist my father consulted for me when I was four and about to have my first glasses. I learned how to read aged just three, and was a fluent reader by four. BUT, according to ophtalmologist, no way could four year olds read. She showed me a string of letters and I read them out to her in the eye test. She declared the test was "inconclusive because four year olds can't read." My father stated I could and she insisted there was no way I could. My father asked her, so, what was I meant to say if she showed me letters and I wasn't supposed to read them out to her. She showed him a capital "S" and said: "At that age, I expect the child to tell me it's a snake." My father asked: "What about a capital E?" and she managed to seriously reply: "children are meant to tell me a capital E is an inverted fork without a handle". My father looked at her and seriously said: "And they say that to you???" She said: "Yes, all four year olds do." :?: :?: :?: That old cow with her crocodile looks SO MUCH LIKE HER, that ophtalmologist is one person I never forgot, and that scene is engraved in my memory (I have an Aspie super powerful memory for shite like that).

I'd also like to say that "All countries have moved on from psychoanalysis to treat autism except France and Argentina." We have a great number of Argentinian psychoanalysts practice in France, and, at least in Paris, they have a great reputation. One of my psychoanalysts was from Argentina. Not the one who told me being a lesbian made me depressive, the one who told me my girlfriend of the time had had every right to double time me and dump me because of my "weird frame of mind".

Circular, I am SO SORRY you had similar experiences. :x As far as I am concerned, I know now that I was abused, not by my parents (yet these "therapists" tried, telling my father I was like this because he had raped me.), but by the whole system. My parents were poor parents actually, because my mom's first husband is a psychoanalyst as she soaks this s**t up like nothing. Plus, according to my parents, France is ALWAYS RIGHT, they are super nationalistic. Nothing good coming from the USA or anywhere else when it comes to treating autism. I am now 29, and seriously, I know the system abused me. But at 15... I dimly felt there had to be homosexuals who weren't chronically depressed, so my depression and my homosexuality could not be linked, but I was 15, what did I know for certain? My parents believed in the s**t, I saw this psychoanalyst three times a week. My school wasn't half so bad, I was an amazing student and some teachers respected me and even tried to intervene in my favor with my parents. At 14-15, I suffered from terrible cognition problems as well as panic attacks. The more panic attacks I had, the more psychoanalyst's appointments I had. The more psychoanalyst's appointments I had, the more panic attacks I had, it was endless, really. One day though my parents copped on. I turned up for a psychoanalyst's appointment and she wasn't there, she's forgotten the appointment. It can happen to anyone right, to forget an appointment. But at the next one, psychoanalyst affirmed I had "come when i wasn't supposed to" because I "Subconsciously was trying to escape the abuse at home". When I went home and said this to my parents, not only were they not impressed to be told they abused me, but the fact I had "decided to come when I had no appointment" was so untrue. I was a big baby in terms of keeping any appointment at that age, too scattered, and my mom was my personal secretary. I would have forgotten my own birthday had she not reminded me, I was that bad. And my mom was an amazing secretary. She had never got any appointment wrong, certainly not mine. Nothing to do with Aspie girl's subconscious. A few weeks later, the "treatment" stopped. Until the next one, with a not much better pretense of a therapist.

I am French, and Sophie's film is banned in France. I live in Ireland though. Do you think I am allowed to share the film on my Facebook, for people to know? Or would Facebook ban me for broadcasting a forbidden film? I don't want to lose my account. Anyone shared this film with their Facebook friends? Thanks for letting me know!

Sorry, this is long! Litzah.



Litzah
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14 Feb 2012, 7:04 pm

Any other fluent French speakers with a special interest in grammar and syntax, like me? Anyone else notices every time these psychoanalysts, in the film, present an argument, all the conjunctions they use ("thus, therefore, but") etc., do not actually join the different parts of their sentences in a logical way, as they should? The subtitles are more grammatically correct, and clarify what in French is very vague. I believe psychoanalysts chose that vocation to escape linguistic constraints. :) And if you look up "Lacan" on Wikipedia, you'll find he had many friends in the surrealist movement. Surreal stuff through and through. :)



ediself
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15 Feb 2012, 4:59 am

Litzah wrote:
Any other fluent French speakers with a special interest in grammar and syntax, like me? Anyone else notices every time these psychoanalysts, in the film, present an argument, all the conjunctions they use ("thus, therefore, but") etc., do not actually join the different parts of their sentences in a logical way, as they should? The subtitles are more grammatically correct, and clarify what in French is very vague. I believe psychoanalysts chose that vocation to escape linguistic constraints. :) And if you look up "Lacan" on Wikipedia, you'll find he had many friends in the surrealist movement. Surreal stuff through and through. :)

Yes. Their sentences could mean anything, it's revolting, I can't even hear any of them speak anymore, it's like I've developed an allergy or something , it makes me nauseous....They have that "dreamy" grammar, their own vocabulary , they make me think of kids playing pretend ! "the psychotic has , or has not yet but symbolically the access to the emergence of the desire is not formed, blaaaaaaaaaah" I can't stand it lol, horrible .
My mom had ALL of dolto's books when I was a kid, and I read them all before the age of 10, so I'd finally understand what hidden meaning her strange questions had. She could feel there "was something off" about me, I knew it, otherwise she wouldn't have bought the whole collection :D I felt different anyway , and looked for an example of "someone like me" in the study cases she wrote about. Never did find any!



EmmaUK12
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15 Feb 2012, 6:07 am

I am watching it now. Speechless.



JimFromFlorida
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16 Feb 2012, 4:55 pm

The film was amazing. It’s sad to see that this is going on in France.

I have Asperger’s Syndrome and I spent years in Freudian/Lacanian psychoanalysis during the 1980‘s. My experience wasn’t nearly as horrifying as those in the film, but it was pretty surreal.

The diagnosis of AS didn’t exist in the US back then, but I was told that my problems were due to the fact that I pooped excessively as a baby. (Seriously. I’m not making this up.) This excessive defecation caused my mother to be secretly revolted by me, which led me to internalize the idea that what was inside me was disgusting. This subconscious knowledge caused me to turn away from people. (Which explained why I never looked at people.) And it also explained my extreme awkwardness and lack of social skills. You see, my problems weren’t due to a lack of understanding of people and of social expectations. They were due to my unconscious belief that what was inside me was disgusting and would be rejected by others.

I call this the ‘defecating baby theory’ of Asperger’s Syndrome. I thought it was just a uniquely stupid idea until I saw this film. I’m amazed.

In all the years I was in this therapy no one ever explained to me that you were supposed to look at people, and no one ever helped me to learn any basic social skills. Instead I was told to follow ‘the method’, which involved saying whatever ideas came into my head, and then saying whatever came into my head as a result of the first thing I said, etc.

I was young and impressionable so I gradually became adept at spouting nonsense like this. It was like a backwards version of social skills training that teaches you to sound like a rambling idiot. It’s sad to hear that these kinds of insane ideas are still alive in France. I had hoped that this was something from the ‘bad old days’ that young people wouldn’t even believe if you told them about it.



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17 Feb 2012, 7:31 am

JimFromFlorida wrote:
The film was amazing. It’s sad to see that this is going on in France.

I have Asperger’s Syndrome and I spent years in Freudian/Lacanian psychoanalysis during the 1980‘s. My experience wasn’t nearly as horrifying as those in the film, but it was pretty surreal.

The diagnosis of AS didn’t exist in the US back then, but I was told that my problems were due to the fact that I pooped excessively as a baby. (Seriously. I’m not making this up.) This excessive defecation caused my mother to be secretly revolted by me, which led me to internalize the idea that what was inside me was disgusting. This subconscious knowledge caused me to turn away from people. (Which explained why I never looked at people.) And it also explained my extreme awkwardness and lack of social skills. You see, my problems weren’t due to a lack of understanding of people and of social expectations. They were due to my unconscious belief that what was inside me was disgusting and would be rejected by others.

I call this the ‘defecating baby theory’ of Asperger’s Syndrome. I thought it was just a uniquely stupid idea until I saw this film. I’m amazed.

In all the years I was in this therapy no one ever explained to me that you were supposed to look at people, and no one ever helped me to learn any basic social skills. Instead I was told to follow ‘the method’, which involved saying whatever ideas came into my head, and then saying whatever came into my head as a result of the first thing I said, etc.

I was young and impressionable so I gradually became adept at spouting nonsense like this. It was like a backwards version of social skills training that teaches you to sound like a rambling idiot. It’s sad to hear that these kinds of insane ideas are still alive in France. I had hoped that this was something from the ‘bad old days’ that young people wouldn’t even believe if you told them about it.

Do you mind if I quote that part about "learning to spout out random stuff" on facebook? I'd need your real name though so if you're ok with it, PM me! (We try not to quote anonymously, as psychoanalysts are fighting us with random" "Mrs H" told us that her son "B" loves packing sessions" stories...)



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19 Feb 2012, 4:33 pm

These french psychiatrists are decades behind compared to the rest of the world when it comes to autism. Don´t they have any knowledge about anatomy and neurology at all or am I mistaken.

They problably got themselves a degree in psychiatry because they where a bunch of nutters to begin with!



Lyll
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20 Feb 2012, 9:45 am

I bet you they are unable to speak english and to follow advances in the matter. :wink:
I'm french, living in France, very open to spiritual, alternative matters. I lived in england for a few years and I do agree that France is waaay backward on certain things.

Please avoid generalised comments based on myths, history etc... After all, every civilisation has a dark area in their history and just because you've heard that (fill with appropriate myth) does not make every person fit in the same box.
I just find that a bit upseting.
Whatching the film, I find those psychologist quite scary, and I don't mean only by their discourse. That old woman dressed like a collection doll really freaks me out. I can't even imagine that someone would leave a child with her.
And that crocodile thing ???? What the f...?



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21 Feb 2012, 5:11 am

pokerface wrote:
They problably got themselves a degree in psychiatry because they where a bunch of nutters to begin with!


oh, how lucky you are to not know this! let me enlighten you: to become a psychoanalyst , all you need is to spend 10 years getting psychoanalyzed yourself . No school needed , because after 10 years of lacan-speech shoved down your throat , they know you're appropriately brainwashed and part of the cult, and you're allowed to start brainwashing other people yourself . Amazing right?



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21 Feb 2012, 9:17 pm

Quote:
I think describing traits that tend to cluster together is valuable, as long as we don't try to make too much of it.


Here is the problem. We are all being diagnoised based upon what they perceive and their subjectivist opinions. Are there objective tests for any of the disorders in the DSM?

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For like I've heard people sometimes say here at WP, you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum.


This is true but it misses my point.

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Now, I am open to medication for both anxiety and depression. I myself have struggled with depression, haven't yet tried antidepressants, but next time I might. (I might have tried Prozac in 1989 if the damn psychiatrist I was seeing had not been so nasty about the whole thing.)


Here is the thing. How do you we truly know these meds work and are no better than placebos? Are depression and anxiety truly organic brain disorders? If they are what are the objective tests to truly determine if there is some form of brain abnormality?

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As I have read, something like Prozac might work great for some people and not do a thing for others.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/03 ... ug-choice3

How would a person know this in advance if someone didn't tell them? Well, that's why I think it is important to help educate ourselves and others.

And sometimes it's also important to come down off an antidepressant in stages even if it doesn't seem to be working.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/03 ... ing-drugs3

And a regular doctor like an internist or family practitioner can also prescribe antidepressants. It is a person's choice who to see.


Again, are these medicines truly wonder drugs or are they placebos?



shubunkin
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24 Feb 2012, 7:35 am

Ediself wrote

"oh, how lucky you are to not know this! let me enlighten you: to become a psychoanalyst , all you need is to spend 10 years getting psychoanalyzed yourself . No school needed , because after 10 years of lacan-speech shoved down your throat , they know you're appropriately brainwashed and part of the cult, and you're allowed to start brainwashing other people yourself . Amazing right?"

What I wonder is -

isn't this Lacanian psychoanalysis all a bit close to a MLM?
(multi-level marketing strategy).

What I want to know, is where is the involvement of bodies such as the CNRS - why has psychoanalysis really had this stronghold on how psychology is understood in France?

I think you're right its all looking a bit like charismatic leadership and cultic behaviour has got the upper hand ...