Autism in France: Psychoanalysis, Packing, Other Travesties

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shubunkin
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24 Feb 2012, 8:20 am

Litzah wrote:
Any other fluent French speakers with a special interest in grammar and syntax, like me? Anyone else notices every time these psychoanalysts, in the film, present an argument, all the conjunctions they use ("thus, therefore, but") etc., do not actually join the different parts of their sentences in a logical way, as they should? The subtitles are more grammatically correct, and clarify what in French is very vague. I believe psychoanalysts chose that vocation to escape linguistic constraints. :) And if you look up "Lacan" on Wikipedia, you'll find he had many friends in the surrealist movement. Surreal stuff through and through. :)


Re the choice of vocation - my hunch is that psychoanalysts escape not only linguistic constraints, but the constraints that are placed upon all evidence- based interventions, namely the need to provide rational responses. They escape them due to the fact that their methodologies and ideologies are based upon quasi religious structures that are impossible to argue with - as you pointed out, the surreal nature cannot be engaged with or debated in an ordinary fashion.



circular
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24 Feb 2012, 8:33 am

shubunkin wrote:
isn't this Lacanian psychoanalysis all a bit close to a MLM?
(multi-level marketing strategy).

I guess you can say so. Clearly there is an economic issue about it.

But living in France, I have more the feeling that it is like a religion. Many people, including stars, are "brainwashed" and they have sort of a feeling of pride to understand things. They think they know the truth. Something like that.

To some extent, it can be people that are fleeing from christianity and that jump into something that sort of a religion, but where you are more free about what you can do. I suppose other people jump into bouddhism for the same reason.

I believe there is a spirituality issue in France, and that's why there are so many people that are depressed. We are the first consumer of antidepressant.

French people know about technical issues in general, so they understand that religious statements are generally false. This leads to atheism. I am an atheist so I think it is good news, but clearly we lack a form of spirituality. Some British atheists are engaging on moral issues, that is good news, but I think that there is still something to be found and to be developped. The work of Michel Onfray is very valuable in showing our spiritual madness that we inherit from catholicism. But he mainly deconstructs christian spirituality, and does not construct something else, or remains vague about some kind of spiritual replacement.

So French people lack marks, reference points. And psychoanalysis is some kind of reference point, and have similarities with christianity (the notion of Law of father for example). So there are not much competitors.



ediself
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26 Feb 2012, 6:36 am

Yes circular , what you said is pretty insightful , I'd add the french fascination for philosophy , that's been going on for centuries , and psychoanalysis can be classified as a belief system which is close to religion ; but even closer to philosophy .
@shubunkin: freud and co are studied in high schools, it's part of French culture to regard psychoanalysis as truth . It's been going on unchecked for so long , it's almost impossible to go to the root of the problem . the only solution is an intervention from other countries , although mothers here are fighting like lionesses with the help of associations , we have the support of one deputy....but the "high authority of health " has been receiving pressures from the psych lobby after a report (due 6 march i think ) leaked (not accidentally i suspect ), in which they were excluding psychoanalysis from the "treatment " of autism . Now the war is on, they retracted the leaked version and said it was "not accurate to the final report", and the deputy who is on our side (mr Fasquelle) said that , in the case the high authority of health 's final report shows support to psychoanalysis , he will demand a parliamentary investigation of what happened to prove they received pressures , because they're supposed to be an independent structure who recommends good practices in matters of health . that could go pretty far.
It's a war and i hope we win.



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27 Feb 2012, 9:05 am

I saw this video a few months ago.

Psychoanalyzing combined with neuroscience could be of benefit to those with Autism.

Unfortunately, these psychological theories were designed based upon the neurotypical mind (and it's deviations). This is a big problem.


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AllenVincent
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28 Feb 2012, 5:56 pm

Sadly I am not at all shocked or surprised.

Alex perhaps you can combine your research into England's appalling treatment of those on the Autistic Spectrum Disorder as well. Many of England's ASD charities are an absolutely sham! Charities in England are unregulated and a law upon themselves. All the major charities, especially Englands National Autistic Society.... all on my recorded deaf system and emails.......... My hatred is surfacing so I shall digress.



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29 Feb 2012, 3:00 pm

ediself wrote:
Yes circular , what you said is pretty insightful , I'd add the french fascination for philosophy , that's been going on for centuries , and psychoanalysis can be classified as a belief system which is close to religion ; but even closer to philosophy .
@shubunkin: freud and co are studied in high schools, it's part of French culture to regard psychoanalysis as truth . It's been going on unchecked for so long , it's almost impossible to go to the root of the problem . the only solution is an intervention from other countries , although mothers here are fighting like lionesses with the help of associations , we have the support of one deputy....but the "high authority of health " has been receiving pressures from the psych lobby after a report (due 6 march i think ) leaked (not accidentally i suspect ), in which they were excluding psychoanalysis from the "treatment " of autism . Now the war is on, they retracted the leaked version and said it was "not accurate to the final report", and the deputy who is on our side (mr Fasquelle) said that , in the case the high authority of health 's final report shows support to psychoanalysis , he will demand a parliamentary investigation of what happened to prove they received pressures , because they're supposed to be an independent structure who recommends good practices in matters of health . that could go pretty far.
It's a war and i hope we win.


Thanks for the update about France will definitely be interested to see what happens on the 6th.
Exactly - the first time I read about Freud was part of compulsory studies in the lycee I attended... so I know what you said is correct, first hand.
Like Litsvah, I ended up leaving France.
I didn't realise it at the time, but it was due to not having been picked up as having particular educational needs. Now I am alternately feeling furious with the French educational system, (which is self-congratulatory, and completely inadequate), and feeling relieved that I made an escape, when I realise that I would have probably been lost had I stayed. I would have ended up in Lacanian psychoanalysis, which most of their psych systems are riddled with.

If it wasn't for Wrong Planet, I wouldnt have heard about all this.
Thanks WP!



Lyll
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29 Feb 2012, 5:15 pm

I cannot compare the french educationnal system with that of other countries because the only one I experienced was the french one. I believe that educationnal systems are very restrictive, teaching you to repeat what you are told and not particularly try to think for yourself, understand and know yourself. Part of a whole control system that makes everyone a good little sheep easy to control. Please do tell me if you know of a valid (and legal) one.

Now combining knowlege as TheSunAlsoRises said seems to be the way forward. Neuroscience, psychology, but also ancient knowledges involving alternative medecine, shamanism, yoga...
We are physical, energetic and spiritual beings and as long as this is not aknowledged we will continue to feel incomplete.
Jung opened up the way.
I have to buy this book I have heard of called the shaman and the psy(chiatrist) Only available in french but I am sure it is extremely eye-opening



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01 Mar 2012, 12:07 am

I found this incredibly interesting because I went to a French Neurologist when I first suspected I had Asperger's or high functioning autism. She told me that because I could talk I did not have autism, and because I didn't act like rainman (this was her exact reference, ironically) I did not have Aspergers.



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01 Mar 2012, 5:32 am

matsev wrote:
I found this incredibly interesting because I went to a French Neurologist when I first suspected I had Asperger's or high functioning autism. She told me that because I could talk I did not have autism, and because I didn't act like rainman (this was her exact reference, ironically) I did not have Aspergers.


Haha :lol: the first GP i told about my son's autism told me "he was talking to that little boy in the waiting room, obviously he's not autistic " yeah . Ok.



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01 Mar 2012, 2:57 pm

What the Psychiatric establishment in France is doing is a clear violation of human rights by the UN definitions of same.
Look back into the early history of Psychiatry and you will be astonished at what you'll find.


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shubunkin
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01 Mar 2012, 4:30 pm

Lyll wrote:
I cannot compare the french educationnal system with that of other countries because the only one I experienced was the french one. I believe that educationnal systems are very restrictive, teaching you to repeat what you are told and not particularly try to think for yourself, understand and know yourself. Part of a whole control system that makes everyone a good little sheep easy to control. Please do tell me if you know of a valid (and legal) one.

Now combining knowlege as TheSunAlsoRises said seems to be the way forward. Neuroscience, psychology, but also ancient knowledges involving alternative medecine, shamanism, yoga...
We are physical, energetic and spiritual beings and as long as this is not aknowledged we will continue to feel incomplete.
Jung opened up the way.
I have to buy this book I have heard of called the shaman and the psy(chiatrist) Only available in french but I am sure it is extremely eye-opening


I can compare both, as I was educated in both systems. I believe that the french system tends to encourage learning by rote, and discourages autonomous thinking compared to the traditional UK one.

The documentary that this thread relates to shows the implications of understanding autism using Lacanian based psychoanalysis.

The psychoanalysts in the documentary base their understanding of autism on the teachings of Lacan. Lacan derived many of his principles from Jungian archetypal symbols and analytical myth. The analysts seem to all be speaking the same symbolic and pseudoscientific language, derived from their charismatic leaders' teachings.

In my opinion it is this emphasis and reliance upon pseudoscience that has enabled France to ignore scientific developments, and to be behind other countries in their understanding of autistic spectrum disorders and developmental disorders. Which is why autism has become their national cause this year.

Professor Noll published an interesting book about Jung called
"The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement". (Princeton University Press.)

I think that neuroscience and cognitive behaviour therapies can work together to develop programmes that may assist people on the autistic spectrum. Research overviews I have read appear to confirm this.

I am at a loss to understand how traditional psychoanalysis as defined by Freud, Jung or Lacan could fit in the same way or how yoga and shamanism and alternative therapies can provide help ?


:nemo:



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02 Mar 2012, 5:25 am

shubunkin wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how traditional psychoanalysis as defined by Freud, Jung or Lacan could fit in the same way or how yoga and shamanism and alternative therapies can provide help ?


:nemo:


Well I personally don't see much difference between psychoanalysis and shamanism :p
Our beloved psychoanalysts are playing with words these days and using the word "multiple" a lot. When WE use the word to mean "ABA+TEACH+Whatever other behavioural therapy +speech therapy +occupational therapy ", what they mean by it is :"whichever of your weird useless american crap + obligatory psychoanalysis " . They're trying to look like they don't think behavioural therapies are evil anymore so they can , maybe , keep a piece of the autistic cake in case they lose their monopoly.
Only problem is: the two are not at all compatible as they view autism as 2 very different things. for psychoanalysts, it's a psychiatric condition caused by a toxic relationship with the mother , for the other it's a neurodevelopmental issue , which exact causes are still being (scientifically ) researched .
I can't see how those could coexist for one individual .



Lyll
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02 Mar 2012, 12:02 pm

Quote:
I can compare both, as I was educated in both systems. I believe that the french system tends to encourage learning by rote, and discourages autonomous thinking compared to the traditional UK one.


Any educational system does to me. As I said, it is just designed to format humans that need constant mothering, can hardly think or do anything for themselves and accept it as little sheep. But it is just my opinion.
However, having worked in Leeds as a French assistant in two different schools, I seemed to notice that the level of knowledge was much lower in English children than in French children. Then again, schools differ in their abilities to teach effectively…

Quote:
The documentary that this thread relates to shows the implications of understanding autism using Lacanian based psychoanalysis.

The psychoanalysts in the documentary base their understanding of autism on the teachings of Lacan. Lacan derived many of his principles from Jungian archetypal symbols and analytical myth. The analysts seem to all be speaking the same symbolic and pseudoscientific language, derived from their charismatic leaders' teachings.

Totally agree though I have no knowledge of Lacanian based psychoanalysis but what I can see from the film is rather putting me off from reading anything about it. They are just applying theories made by one individual (very subjective) to everyone which seems totally irrational to me since every person is individual thus different from others.


Quote:
In my opinion it is this emphasis and reliance upon pseudoscience that has enabled France to ignore scientific developments, and to be behind other countries in their understanding of autistic spectrum disorders and developmental disorders. Which is why autism has become their national cause this year.


I agree and this is one of the main problem of our civilisation. Being stuck in concepts and beliefs that do not work in the modern scientifically advanced world but at the same time not taking interest in anything that has been around for decades and still work today seriously.

Quote:
Professor Noll published an interesting book about Jung called
"The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement". (Princeton University Press.)


Haven’t read it. What I agree with in Jung’s work is the connection he tries to re-establish between the physical and the soul. His idea of collective unconscious (which means to me we are all connected), the anima/animus balance (that I suppose aspies can relate to a lot, at least I do), the light and cosmic archetypes, the individuation process (sorry if those are not the right English terms, I have read it in french.)

Quote:
I think that neuroscience and cognitive behaviour therapies can work together to develop programmes that may assist people on the autistic spectrum. Research overviews I have read appear to confirm this. I am at a loss to understand how traditional psychoanalysis as defined by Freud, Jung or Lacan could fit in the same way or how yoga and shamanism and alternative therapies can provide help ?


* Sometimes a symbolic rite can have a much more effective effect than cognitive behaviour therapies because it speaks directly to the unconscious in its own symbolic language. Hence the potential use of shamanic techniques.

* Frequencies have a proven effect on the brain (brain waves). Ancient chants, Mantras, ‘primitive’ music instruments are based on them.

* Yoga helps the balanced flowing of energies (and chakras for those who know). Brings emotional control and peace. Helps being conscious of our bodies, Helps through meditation to stop overactive minds and control thoughts. Where do you think relaxation techniques come from??

* Proper nutrition can resolve a lot of things. Vitamine and mineral imbalances can cause, depression, mood swings etc.

* ‘Primitive’ dancing helps release anxieties .Jumping, stamping of feet, basically very repetitive movements that remind me a lot of …mmmh let me guess…stimming?

*Plants have very strong healing properties and have been used for centuries and ho…wait a second…doesn’t the pharmaceutical companies recreate some of the molecules they contain in labs? Yes! Unfortunately as plants are living entities, what is recreated is not the original combination of molecules and energies and does not have the same effect as the plant itself. Tough luck…since we little sheep have lost our knowledge of plant medicine and rely only on the big companies to help us.

Nobody asks you to follow a guru or enter a sect. Just experiment and see for yourself. Try, take what works for you, throw what does not, but be opened to everything and forget what you have been told to see for yourself.
Yoga, plants, nutrition, shamanism, energetic techniques, brain waves, I have tried them all and they work. It is only recently that I have put a name on what made me different as a child. But I have sorted myself out with the guidance of a great FRENCH Jungian psychologist who gave me key techniques to learn to cope, work by myself and evolve towards interior peace…She never mentioned a pathology, just gave me tools leaving me the choice on when or whether to use them and no drugs.

I have met wonderful ENGLISH shamanic practitionners, I have met wonderful FRENCH Yoga teachers, I have studied Reiki, plants, brain waves, nutrition...more tools, more positive effects. Combining is the key. And you know what? you can do all that yourself, without relying on someone else to potentially (mis)understand the person that you are within and that nobody else than your own self will ever know...



shubunkin
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03 Mar 2012, 4:56 am

Lyll wrote:
Quote:
It is only recently that I have put a name on what made me different as a child. But I have sorted myself out with the guidance of a great FRENCH Jungian psychologist who gave me key techniques to learn to cope, work by myself and evolve towards interior peace…She never mentioned a pathology, just gave me tools leaving me the choice on when or whether to use them and no drugs.



@Lyll

Did you have to work out you were on the spectrum by yourself?
Am I right to conclude she wasn't able or willing to assess you or diagnose you with any developmental or autistic spectrum disorders? Or have I misunderstood and she did ?


:nemo:



Lyll
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03 Mar 2012, 6:26 am

I believe she did, but did not mention it to me. All the thechniques she gave me seemed to perfectly apply to my 'traits' .
Visualisation : I tend to think in pictures though my verbal abilities are pretty good..
Ways of stimming that are 'acceptable' to society.
Meditation: a way to calm down during melt downs and find inner peace again.
These are just a few example.
I think it would not have been beneficial at the time to put a name on my difference. So she avoided it.
She did not try to heal me she taught me how to accept myself as I was and how to cope with the outside world better.