What really is bullying?

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That's true...I personally try to see both sides, sometimes a little too much to the point of blaming it all on myself. but I'm not everyone and I even know someone who does what you describe. He thinks if his female friends turn him down when he asks them out they're being mean for instance when its more like his female friends including me simply don't like him that way.

well compared to the horror stories my parents liked to scare us with from their childhood...I guess I and my siblings were lucky.

Yes, you're right. So you keep on bringing it up until somebody listens. The other possibility though, and I kind of hesitate to bring this up because of how you might take it, is the "other side of the coin."

Specifically, asking yourself if it's possible that your own sensitivity may be playing a role. I'm NOT saying it is. It's just that at some point, when and if you've actually exhausted ALL available resources (people who will listen to you), and no one but you sees what is happening as something that should pose a real problem, it could be that some adjustment may be necessary within yourself.

Not trying to put you on the spot by any means. I suspect perhaps you just haven't spoken to enough people about the problem. I only bring up these possibilities because I've had to go these routes myself. In some cases I just hadn't spoken yet to the right people. In others, I've had to make my own adjustments. In still others, I've had to learn to "toughen up" so to speak. No matter what the problem is, who is involved, how many, or how many are in positions of authority that ought to be doing something about it but aren't doing anything, many of these problems are not easy to address.

It doesn't help when you've got Autistic traits that interfere with your ability to get others involved. Be it aversion to contact with some of them, or decreased ability to clearly communicate the problem, or both, it's not easy by any means. It's even harder to look within yourself. Questions of self doubt come into play.

How much of this is caused by my Autism? How much of this can I really do anything about if the problem is me? How many people and which people should I talk to before looking at myself? How am I supposed to approach people when that's one of the things I suck so bad at to begin with?

It really sucks trying to answer questions like that when you don't have a clue. I'm not about to tell anyone that I've "solved" the problem in my own life. I don't know that I handle bullies very well at all. All I do know is that by messing up, talking to as many people as I have managed to, I FEEL better and more confident now than I ever did many years ago. I still have self doubt about how well I handle bullying. I still wonder if I am being a bully sometimes.

The only thing i know for sure now is that if I feel I'm being bullied, I WILL speak up and not back down from it. Right or wrong. Doing so has been better for me in the long run than trying to brush every incident off.

Well in my case it was usually more of a matter of people knowing what was going on but being ok with it, like teachers knowing but not doing anything about it or being involved themselves. I am not in such a situation anymore but it happened a few times in my childhood....I also remember times that were more likely to be mis-understandings on my part but that was usually not the case.

Let's not let the thread devolve into arguments against spanking & discipline of children. Its about bullying. And yes, my parents sometimes went overboard in that department. I'm not going to say I didn't ask for it, either..
For mr, the ultimate injustice came in Junior High, when I had a group of kids tormenting me constantly. I often lashed out, if I didn't just withdraw. Trying to defend myself one time, & the whole stinking mess of us ended up in the Vice Principal's office. And they had corporal punishment there, also (no one aside from a parent should ever touch a kid's rear, for ANY reason). Had a sore butt. Along with my tormentors, which did give a moment's satisfaction anyhow..
I know very, very well what bullying is. Problem these days is people can get into your lives through the 'Net. In my school days you could at least retreat to your home.

Sincerely,
Matt

Yes and no. Of course people misunderstand things and sometimes get upset about trivialities. But on the other hand, I doubt that many bullies think of themselves as bullies.

Many people simply succumb to the group mentality, laugh about hurtful remarks directed against someone, crack a little joke about the harrassed individual, it's all in good fun right? That's how they justify this behavior. And sometimes, the silly little jokes really are just that, little jokes. But if somebody is constantly the butt end of such jokes and remarks and hurtful nicknames, it builds up over time and it's not just not funny anymore. Instead, it becomes very damaging and terrorizing.

Think of it in terms of sexual harrassment. Men might not see it as harrassment if they comment on the shapely figure of a female coworker, whistle as she walks past, tell inappropriate jokes in front of her, perhaps even playfully slap her behind. It's all in good fun from their point of view. Nobody thinks of themselves as sexist or as an abuser. And some women might not even mind this kind of attention, but many (if not most) are extremely bothered by this.

All the little things that are relatively harmless when viewed as isolated incidents pile up. When taken as a whole, they create a very hostile and psychologically destructive work environment. That's why we can't let the -- often unintentional -- bullies define if their behavior was meant to be bullying or not. The result matters more than the intent. It should be about protecting the emotional health of the victims, not the reputation of the bully.



I agree that people should be given the benefit of the doubt. But if this behavior continues, especially after the victim has pointed out that they are bothered by it*, it crosses the line into real bullying.

*always within reason of course. It would be ridiculous to say to one's boss "I'm very bothered by your criticism of my work, so please only say positive things from now on".



I forgot that military service is entirely voluntary in the USA. In that case I agree with you that the recruits knew what they signed up for. But they should have a way out if they feel that they can't take the pressure, imho.

I was coming at this from the background of compulsory military service in Germany, which has only recently been suspended. Able-bodied German males didn't get much of a choice until 2011, and there was a worrisome number of suicides among the conscripts.



I agree with this, with the above-mentioned caveats. I think bullying needs to be very clearly defined, in the same way it was done for sexual harrassment.

Bullying is split in 2 groups, emotional and physical:
Emotional: When someone calls me stupid, makes fun of how I talk, spreads rumors about me, uses insulting language, gets other people to hate me, and threatens they would hurt me if I do something they don't like.
Physical: Getting shoved, punched, strangled, kicked, slapped, or ANYTHING along those lines.

I think teachers are most often the ones who facilitate bullying in school. Sometimes they may not even realize they are doing it. The teacher may be personally annoyed or frustrated with a particular student so they start to treat them a little different than the other kids in the class. This makes the other kids think it is okay to pick on them. Even really subtle behavior by the teacher can encourage the class to pick on someone. It can be as simple as rolling their eyes at the child, or using a different tone of voice. Kids pick up on these things and they will imitate and even exaggerate the behavior. If the teacher says something mildly condescending or sarcastic about a student, the other kids will use those comments as a basis for taunting them on the playground. Kids can take one comment and they will exaggerate it and say it over and over again.

Teachers can also deliberately encourage bullying, and be bullies themselves. I saw a lot of this go on when I was in school. In physical education classes, the coaches belittled anyone who wasn't good at sports. Likewise in academic classes, some teachers would make fun of students who were slow learners. Also there are situations where a teacher doesn't like a student, because they dislike that child's parents, or disliked the child's older sibling, or because the child's family is considered to be "low class" in the community.

And sometimes teachers bully, just because they can. I think some of them actually become teachers because they have their own unresolved issues with school. Some of them try to "fit in" and be friends with students. They can get cliques going in classes, where the teacher wants to be part of the clique and they will act snobby towards the students who don't fit into the clique.

I never took it personally when other kids picked on me in school because I understood they were taking their cues from adults. The things they said hurt me, but I knew they were just being kids. It was the adults who bothered me, because they were the ones who set the example.

Teachers can rationalize the child deserves it for whatever reason. It could be another child knows them and is jealous so they try to get the teacher not to like them by spreading rumors. Parents get involved in this too, by telling all the dirty laundry to the teacher, the only objective is getting the teacher not to like the kid as much as their own. I saw a lot of that growing up. It's all just a big game of, "if someone else is getting picked on I'm not so let's be sure it's not me."

A lot of times, kids take their cues from adults, but I had an art class with a kid who picked on me mercilessly and I blame no one but him. Not parents, not teacher, not anyone else or anything. It was just him. He wanted to cause pain and misery so that's what he did and it was he who did it and no one else was at fault.

If a kid gets on a teacher's bad side one year, the reputation follows the kid throughout his school years, from one grade to the next without a chance to start over unless he moves to another school or district.

So this is all personal experience and bitterness on your part and not so much rational debate, yes?

Oh wait, am I a bully?

I would not be so sure that's irrational, this pretty much describes what I ran into a lot as well, except I did not put all the responsibility on these teachers because I did not feel that was a good excuse for the other kids to constantly pick on me.

I've been bullied and I have seen others experience it, also, so I try to make some sense of it and figure it out since I can't go up and ask the individuals why they do it or the teachers why it is tolerated or why they, sometimes, contribute to it. It might not be utterly rational, just a feeble attempt to "get" it.

I admit, I have done it myself, but I believe it is wrong. I should make an effort not to do it and control it in some way to spare others. I might still do it in the future, but I hope to be cognizant of when I do it so I can reign it in early.


I have thought about why I have done it, but I reach the conclusion that I shouldn't be doing it, while others fail to reach that conclusion. So, I ponder why they do not reach it. Maybe it's for the same reason I crave chocolate bars?
They want to continue their way out of comfort or habit and it feels right to them.

That bolded part is a false dichotomy - you can discipline children without smacking them.

As far as spanking goes, it looks like it's pretty normalized to the point that most people simply refuse to see it as harmful. However, at least some research shows that it might be harmful:

Children can often be reasoned with. They want to know why they have to do something, such as washing their hands before dinner. If parents explain to them "you pick up germs when you touch things and you might get very sick if these germs get onto your food", they are capable of understanding this line of reasoning.

As for punishing, the most effective punishment was when my mother was disappointed with me and seemingly bothered by my behavior. She was my only attachment figure (in my mind, my father was just some guy who spent some hours in our living room each day and rarely ever talked to me), so I definitely didn't want her to sad because of me.

Bullying does not have to be intentional. That is to say, someone does not have to think "I am going to bully another person" in order to be a bully. It is, from my observation, remarkably easy for people to cross the line into actual bullying and remarkably easy for them to justify it to themselves via defense mechanisms such as denial, projection, etc. I unintentionally bullied a friend of mine on an extremely sore point because I was trying to joke with him and crossed a line. He certainly felt bullied and while my intentions were good, the outcome was far outside of where I wanted them to take me. I had to live with the outcome, and so did he.

I don't think every interaction that goes badly can be characterized as bullying, although I don't think you need a history of harassment before you can call it bullying, either.

I don't think a consensus will emerge from this thread.

There's a lot of justification and denial taking place. Instead of responding with the thought I will try my best not do this again, since this person doesn't like what I am saying or doing ofttimes the one doing the bullying thinks the other person is being too sensitive or that people can say anything they want because of freedom of speech. Friends should be able to tease friends so it's the other guys fault for getting upset about it. The appropriate reaction is to realize they did or said something they shouldn't do or say again.

Yes, this covers it pretty well.