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Sophist
Professor of Pedantry
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27 Oct 2006, 3:17 pm

Nomic wrote:
Sophist wrote:
There is a difference between having socializing difficulties and being completely asocial. No human on earth is completely asocial unless they're a vegetable.

And it seems that "Aspie" forums have worked so far. So as far as a contradiction, I don't see one other than if you take a "social disability" as an absolute.


Fair enough. So might I conjecture that the social difficulty is with NT's -- people who have seriously different ways of perception from AS -- that there exists a problem. That is, AS to AS is perfectly fine in relating to eachother and in general a peson with AS desires social interactions. Thus it makes sence to gather in a forum where a 1 in 1,000 condition can be considered the norm.

Yet when I browse the section on computers and math, I find it's turned into more of a help desk. People post mundane questions about their computers or homework and have others diligently explain the specific answers and why they are correct. Is this really a social forum? Again, is it "working"? And again, what does it mean for an AS forum to work? Possibly this could mean that if the AS people who participate feel that they have achieved social connections with eachother on the forum, then it works. Is it really working for you? I don't mean to be critical; I'm curious. This is important to me. I expect it does work for you, otherwise you wouldn't be here so often to have gone beyond "emu egg".

In my mind this enitre forum seems contradictory. It's mere apparent existance then is an anamoly. This suggests that my understanding that leads me to believe its a contradiction is wrong in some important way (this is usually the case when I encounter problems), or this forum isn't actually a social forum. That is, people don't actually have the social interactions they desire, but at least have little badges that make them feel better. Certainly parcicipating in a technical help desk is of little social value if it only leads to more mundane technical questions.


Some good questions. For certain subforums, it seems they are definitely less of a social gathering and just a question/answer environment. But then there's others like General, etc., where more socializing (i.e., posting and answering posts for the enjoyment of it) occurs.

And this isn't the only Aspie forum on the internet, my own included, so it would seem there are many contradictions to your intuition out there.

Why they work? I think the simplest answer is that people like it. I've learned an inordinate deal about what ASDs are really like, from real people, found out more about myself, exchanged information, and found people who love to think and ponder and discuss ideas as much as I do.

I'll admit Aspie forums tend to be less stereotypically social as nonASD forums. On those forums I've noted more smooth give and take of conversations, talking about family and the "cute thing Joey just did this morning". On ASD forums, you get back and forth, some family/personal stuff, a great deal more of discussion and debate of ideas or concepts, and then you also have people who "talk to walls" which means they post to answer a question (usually the subject of their post focuses around themselves) but cease their interactions from there. Some days I do this as it takes more energy to focus my attention on another person, even in written form.

I think we socialize a bit differently in some ways. But overall, I think people keep coming back to these forums because they enjoy it, whatever they get out of it. Sometimes it's socialization, other times it's information.


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Nomic
Butterfly
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27 Oct 2006, 11:23 pm

I appreicate the answers everyone supplied. It's much clearer now that the definition of a social forum is different for AS than NT perspectives. For an NT, this forum might not meet the definition of "social". But for an AS, the NT concept of social is really quite asocial and entirely insensitive if not actually hostile. This forum is much more suitable.

BTW, it's not so much that I think this "makes no sense", but rather that apparent contradictions catch my attention. They show opportunities for me to correct my understanding of what is going on. In a sense, I like debugging my perception of reality. Thank you for helping me with this one. Usually people just think I'm a little weird and ignore me.

However, I find it interesting what people did not comment upon (well, one person did, but no follow up). I also asked about what makes you an Aspie. Is it reasonable to define yourself based on a clinical diagnoses of a percieved deficiency by NT's? It appears to me that there are increadibly intelligent, capable people here. Why accept such a negative perception of self? Certainly my spelling sucks, but I don't define myself around having trouble with spelling. If I suddenly started spelling perfectly, I'd still be me. But if you no longer had the AS symptoms, would you still be you? I think I may challenge this in another thread though...

I like how people don't take offence to my questions. It's quite encouraging as I'm writting an article about "Nomic" and it's somewhat personal. But I'd like to share it and hope others can tell me how well they relate to my story, and how their story contrasts to my own.

I hope people feel they have learned something useful from my questions. I've been told by better minds than my own that it's not knowing the right answers that counts; it's knowing the right questions to ask.



Mithrandir
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27 Oct 2006, 11:32 pm

Sophist wrote:
Nomic wrote:
Sophist wrote:
There is a difference between having socializing difficulties and being completely asocial. No human on earth is completely asocial unless they're a vegetable.

And it seems that "Aspie" forums have worked so far. So as far as a contradiction, I don't see one other than if you take a "social disability" as an absolute.


Fair enough. So might I conjecture that the social difficulty is with NT's -- people who have seriously different ways of perception from AS -- that there exists a problem. That is, AS to AS is perfectly fine in relating to eachother and in general a peson with AS desires social interactions. Thus it makes sence to gather in a forum where a 1 in 1,000 condition can be considered the norm.

Yet when I browse the section on computers and math, I find it's turned into more of a help desk. People post mundane questions about their computers or homework and have others diligently explain the specific answers and why they are correct. Is this really a social forum? Again, is it "working"? And again, what does it mean for an AS forum to work? Possibly this could mean that if the AS people who participate feel that they have achieved social connections with eachother on the forum, then it works. Is it really working for you? I don't mean to be critical; I'm curious. This is important to me. I expect it does work for you, otherwise you wouldn't be here so often to have gone beyond "emu egg".

In my mind this enitre forum seems contradictory. It's mere apparent existance then is an anamoly. This suggests that my understanding that leads me to believe its a contradiction is wrong in some important way (this is usually the case when I encounter problems), or this forum isn't actually a social forum. That is, people don't actually have the social interactions they desire, but at least have little badges that make them feel better. Certainly parcicipating in a technical help desk is of little social value if it only leads to more mundane technical questions.


Some good questions. For certain subforums, it seems they are definitely less of a social gathering and just a question/answer environment. But then there's others like General, etc., where more socializing (i.e., posting and answering posts for the enjoyment of it) occurs.

And this isn't the only Aspie forum on the internet, my own included, so it would seem there are many contradictions to your intuition out there.

Why they work? I think the simplest answer is that people like it. I've learned an inordinate deal about what ASDs are really like, from real people, found out more about myself, exchanged information, and found people who love to think and ponder and discuss ideas as much as I do.

I'll admit Aspie forums tend to be less stereotypically social as nonASD forums. On those forums I've noted more smooth give and take of conversations, talking about family and the "cute thing Joey just did this morning". On ASD forums, you get back and forth, some family/personal stuff, a great deal more of discussion and debate of ideas or concepts, and then you also have people who "talk to walls" which means they post to answer a question (usually the subject of their post focuses around themselves) but cease their interactions from there. Some days I do this as it takes more energy to focus my attention on another person, even in written form.

I think we socialize a bit differently in some ways. But overall, I think people keep coming back to these forums because they enjoy it, whatever they get out of it. Sometimes it's socialization, other times it's information.


I find a big difference here is that people say alot more then other forums.
I think that means people care more.

In response to the hosts question, I do wear aspie like a badge. Mostly because people around me are kind and open minded. Also because of what being an aspie means.
I find being an aspie to be akin to being a genius.
Aspie is a gift for me and this world.


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Nomic
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27 Oct 2006, 11:42 pm

Mithrandir wrote:
In response to the hosts question, I do wear aspie like a badge. Mostly because people around me are kind and open minded. Also because of what being an aspie means.
I find being an aspie to be akin to being a genius.
Aspie is a gift for me and this world.


Yes, this is what I'm looking to understand better. Please show me more of your mind. How can you tell if someone is an Aspie? Is it purely by a list of problems they have with NTs, or is there a definition that entirely focuses on the postive aspects of what it really means to be an Aspie?



Belfast
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28 Oct 2006, 7:03 am

Nomic wrote:
However, I find it interesting what people did not comment upon (well, one person did, but no follow up). I also asked about what makes you an Aspie. Is it reasonable to define yourself based on a clinical diagnoses of a percieved deficiency by NT's? It appears to me that there are increadibly intelligent, capable people here. Why accept such a negative perception of self? Certainly my spelling sucks, but I don't define myself around having trouble with spelling. If I suddenly started spelling perfectly, I'd still be me. But if you no longer had the AS symptoms, would you still be you? I think I may challenge this in another thread though...

I agree with much that's been posted already here by others.
As to what makes an individual an aspie...of course, I can only speak for myself. My identity is an amorphous blob of contradictions, including both rigid & shifting aspects. Have always been some version of myself, never had a label for it that lasted long, though. Don't thnk of self as an anything-I'm a woman, I'm an adult, I'm an English-speaker, etc. but lists of demographic subgroups aren't "the be all and end all" of who I am. I'm a person with a variety of subtle & blatant unusual mental features. A couple years ago, I was given this new dx-it's been useful in putting a template to my difficulties, but I remain however I am, regardless of whether it fits according to the latest system.
For example: I've had issues with food, dislike most food appearance, taste, smell, texture, and so on. My behavior & reactions used to be called being obstinant & willful-but it's never been about other people, it's about the yucky food. People treating me poorly (being hard on me) didn't change/improve my relationship with eating. All of a sudden, with advent of AS dx, I discover alternate reason, sensory modulation disorder-something less blame-full. Nothing to be done about it at this late stage, but it's preferable to the previous misinterpretations of my peculiar quirks.
I can't separate out parts of myself & see them as distinct manifestations of my dx'd disorders. Can't imagine self without certain problems-not attached to these obstacles, just can't imagine thinking, feeling, and sensing differently. I don't experience myself as doing an action and then responding to myself by saying "oh that's merely my OCD happening-or is it my AS-or is simply part of my 'personality' ?" I'm all me all the time, which is more or less fun or miserable, depending on my currently perceived reality-updated from minute to minute.
I'm self-conscious (to excess, my counselors say) & often observing myself, but not so good at putting stuff together, making sense of myself, or reading how others are reading me.


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Sophist
Professor of Pedantry
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28 Oct 2006, 12:17 pm

Nomic wrote:
I also asked about what makes you an Aspie. Is it reasonable to define yourself based on a clinical diagnoses of a percieved deficiency by NT's? It appears to me that there are increadibly intelligent, capable people here. Why accept such a negative perception of self? Certainly my spelling sucks, but I don't define myself around having trouble with spelling. If I suddenly started spelling perfectly, I'd still be me. But if you no longer had the AS symptoms, would you still be you? I think I may challenge this in another thread though...


Hmmm... *thinking*

All in all, I tend to disagree with "Aspergers" begin a disorder as, logically, I think it's inaccurate. "Disorder" implies only the negative and also implies a complete summation of a person's personality-- but no person's personality is completely deficient.

But most any Aspie/HFAer on this forum could tell you that, yes, while each of us has our own individual difficulties (some worse than others), we have abilities as well. Which makes using Aspergers or HFA as a "disorder" inaccurate.

Instead, I tend to think of myself as having an Aspergers "profile". This in turn acknowledges the things I have difficulty with but also refuses to ignore the things I am able to do because I have Aspergers.

Every person in the world has a "profile" and I think we are definitely no different. It's just that ours tend to be Aspergian in nature.

So I do not think of Aspergers as being something terribly negative and degrading. No, not at all. Aspergers as a profile, for me, has its good points, its neutral points, and its bad. And there is no person on earth that cannot say the same about their own profile, too.

I would also not change who I am. Were I to no longer fit an AS profile, I wouldn't be me. I would be another person with a different profile. I cannot separate Aspergers from myself because my brain is an Aspergers brain. But I am also an individual because "Aspergers" is just a name and no matter how similar I am to any one person on this forum, I will always be me and nobody else can say the same.


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My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/

My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/