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Are "they" sure AS doesn't get worse with age?

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EXPECIALLY
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15 Feb 2012, 10:32 am

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
I do know that there is also an unfortunate chance of developing psychosis or schizophrenia but that's not what I mean.

I noticed a change around 23...interesting because of the genetic link between AS and schizophrenia, this is right around the time one might also become mentally ill.

But it wasn't like that at all, it's more like I'm just developing into the childhood portrait of AS, although my social skills are obviously not as lacking as a 5 year old's might be since I've lived 27 years and have learned a lot, but I do not have as much control as I used to.

I never had so much trouble with TOM before, now it's like I REALLY don't understand people, when they speak if they don't use very clear and direct language. I just can't get their meaning, because it's so hard to diverge from my own thinking. Any extra words they use confuse me, I won't comprehend them and have to ask them to repeat if what they're saying is important, I used to ENJOY witty banter.
wise but I
I should add, I'm still capable of humor but it feels like MUCH more of an act now, and often times when people laugh at me I'm not even trying to be funny.

Those are the main things that have really changed, I feel fine otherwise and my concentration has actually improved in some areas, I feel like I'm less affected by ADHD and more affected by AS, I suppose. It's been four years since I've TRULY felt like my old self, but I haven't lost my mind so I'm starting to think this is just the new me.

I was reading a few articles Paul Cooijmans, not sure if he's a psychiatrist or not, he also sounds like an Aspie but this caught my eye:

"A general fact about genetic traits is that they become stronger as one grows older. "You become ever more like your father" is a popular expression that reflects this. For Asperger, this means that the negative aspects, such as rigidity, too will become ever more of a burden throughout life. It also means that one must be very critical with regard to possible therapies or "cures" for Asperger, as applied to some children nowadays. The effect thereof cannot be judged on short term. One has to follow such a person into old age, because of the fact that genetic traits become ever more expressed as one gets older. A possible effect in childhood of therapy may be deceptive; one's true genetic nature will come out eventually, in adulthood."

MY father is schizophrenic and the links between AS (more so than autism) and schizophrenia were discussed earlier in the article, so this really speaks to me. As much I hate to consider the fact that I may be following in his unfortunate footsteps, I REALLY don't think that's the case. What he's saying about AS isn't common thought among most doctors ASFAK, I've only heard about schizophrenia becoming apparent later in life and one's "true genetic nature" coming out.

Anyone have a similar experience as me? Perhaps this more common among women?


In your early twenties, did you give up anything that required you to socialize more often than you do, now ? Let's say, even around, late teens ? You have to bear in mind IF you don't practice and stay engaged socially, your skill set will level off and you might see some decline. Also, genetics will play a role in outcomes.

Listen, there is a reason that a number of high profile Autistics have social skills that seem pretty damn good. Getting out, lecturing, public speaking, and VOLUNTEERING has help them immensely as they age.

*just an opinion and should be taken as such

TheSunAlsoRises


I did, actually, but it was my decision.

I want to also add that I did have some obsessive interests in childhood but right around puberty they stopped (or at least lessened to the point that they didn't interfere with socialization) but right around 23 I started becoming obsessive again and wanted to spend all of my time focusing on my interests, it's been that way ever since. When I am with people I very rarely get that feeling of relaxing and just enjoying it now.

But yes, I took a long, erm, break from employment and basically shut myself out from everyone that I didn't HAVE to deal with.


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15 Feb 2012, 10:37 am

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
EXPECIALLY,

You are all of 27 years of age. According to your post, it appears that certain aspects of your socialization has been affected...... leaving your other skills intact. You noticed these changes around the age of 23. You don't mention anything about co-morbid conditions, medications, or problems elsewhere.

This is why developmental studies need to be done across the lifespan of the Autist.

TheSunAlsoRises


I actually was on stimulants for ADHD in childhood and later a combo of that and SSRIs up until around 22, with some breaks in between.

I've wondered for awhile what kind of effects those drugs might have on even the NT brain that's still developing (especially as young as 8 ), let alone the ADHD or Aspie brain.

I also have to admit that I very foolishly "experimented" with some recreational drugs in my youth (and NEVER would have done that if I knew I had a brain that was wired even anything close to autistic) but that was years ago, last time I must have been 19.

I know some on WP think these drugs can actually improve AS but IMHO the potential risks outweigh the benefits.


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15 Feb 2012, 10:43 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I think it can get 'worse,' but probably not for the reasons the author of that article thinks. After 10-20-40-60 years a person may get tired of 'faking it' and compensating at all times, and may decide not to worry as much about superficial, surface stuff. From the outside that would look like a regression, but it might actually be more adaptive in terms of less stress.

And there is also the possibility of 'burnout.' That is, pushing too hard for too long until there is a breakdown of mind, body or both. After doing that myself I am a lot less inclined to push myself to pieces for the sake of uber-normality.

Oh, and I might as well post a link to this article, since I haven't done it in a while.


That was really interesting, I've actually seen that article before but didn't realize it was so in-depth.

Author gives a lot of personal reasons, I relate to a lot of them especially dropping a facade or entering a new facade, and just general burnout from years of having a facade.


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15 Feb 2012, 10:56 am

unduki wrote:
I suppose some stuff gets worse and some stuff gets better. It depends on what you've experienced and who/what you know. I'm a bit of a control freak/perfectionist and wore myself out raising my kids. I was a single mom for the final 12 years. I've been forced to mellow out because I have high blood pressure. Either I do or die. Yoga helps a lot.

You can condition yourself in a lot of ways. Your focus alone WILL affect who you become. This is why it's a great thing to identify AS early in life, but it is what it is, eh?

I can't imagine being allowed to develop without the obstacles our societies provide as a matter of course. Just a tiny, little heads up would have been so helpful.

I wonder if it's the AS getting worse or just the effects of a human brain loosing plasticity.


I think it has to do with the brain losing plasticity as well, at least partially.

Now they say the brain never actually stops developing but it does lose plasticity around this time, I feel less able to swing into NT mode, so I guess for many, many years I was very much half autistic and half NT with no trouble switching sides. Now it feels more like 70 percent autistic and 30 percent NT, I really have to fight to "stay in character", now.


OddDuckNash99 wrote:
Personally, I see no connection with AS symptoms getting worse in late adolescence/early adulthood and schizophrenia/psychosis symptoms first appearing at this time. The likely reason for why psychosis starts at this stage in life, as well as most other neuropsych disorders, is because this is the time when the prefrontal cortex fully "turns on" and starts becoming capable of extremely abstract thought and concepts. We use our prefrontal cortex all of our lives, of course, but almost every neuropsych disorder involves some sort of impairment with the PFC and its executive functioning, whether it be schizophrenia, OCD, depression, or whatever.


This along with losing plasticity in the brain seems to explain a lot, because I actually do feel more skilled in some areas but less flexible in others.


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15 Feb 2012, 11:38 am

EXPECIALLY wrote:
TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
I do know that there is also an unfortunate chance of developing psychosis or schizophrenia but that's not what I mean.

I noticed a change around 23...interesting because of the genetic link between AS and schizophrenia, this is right around the time one might also become mentally ill.

But it wasn't like that at all, it's more like I'm just developing into the childhood portrait of AS, although my social skills are obviously not as lacking as a 5 year old's might be since I've lived 27 years and have learned a lot, but I do not have as much control as I used to.

I never had so much trouble with TOM before, now it's like I REALLY don't understand people, when they speak if they don't use very clear and direct language. I just can't get their meaning, because it's so hard to diverge from my own thinking. Any extra words they use confuse me, I won't comprehend them and have to ask them to repeat if what they're saying is important, I used to ENJOY witty banter.
wise but I
I should add, I'm still capable of humor but it feels like MUCH more of an act now, and often times when people laugh at me I'm not even trying to be funny.

Those are the main things that have really changed, I feel fine otherwise and my concentration has actually improved in some areas, I feel like I'm less affected by ADHD and more affected by AS, I suppose. It's been four years since I've TRULY felt like my old self, but I haven't lost my mind so I'm starting to think this is just the new me.

I was reading a few articles Paul Cooijmans, not sure if he's a psychiatrist or not, he also sounds like an Aspie but this caught my eye:

"A general fact about genetic traits is that they become stronger as one grows older. "You become ever more like your father" is a popular expression that reflects this. For Asperger, this means that the negative aspects, such as rigidity, too will become ever more of a burden throughout life. It also means that one must be very critical with regard to possible therapies or "cures" for Asperger, as applied to some children nowadays. The effect thereof cannot be judged on short term. One has to follow such a person into old age, because of the fact that genetic traits become ever more expressed as one gets older. A possible effect in childhood of therapy may be deceptive; one's true genetic nature will come out eventually, in adulthood."

MY father is schizophrenic and the links between AS (more so than autism) and schizophrenia were discussed earlier in the article, so this really speaks to me. As much I hate to consider the fact that I may be following in his unfortunate footsteps, I REALLY don't think that's the case. What he's saying about AS isn't common thought among most doctors ASFAK, I've only heard about schizophrenia becoming apparent later in life and one's "true genetic nature" coming out.

Anyone have a similar experience as me? Perhaps this more common among women?


In your early twenties, did you give up anything that required you to socialize more often than you do, now ? Let's say, even around, late teens ? You have to bear in mind IF you don't practice and stay engaged socially, your skill set will level off and you might see some decline. Also, genetics will play a role in outcomes.

Listen, there is a reason that a number of high profile Autistics have social skills that seem pretty damn good. Getting out, lecturing, public speaking, and VOLUNTEERING has help them immensely as they age.

*just an opinion and should be taken as such

TheSunAlsoRises


I did, actually, but it was my decision.

I want to also add that I did have some obsessive interests in childhood but right around puberty they stopped (or at least lessened to the point that they didn't interfere with socialization) but right around 23 I started becoming obsessive again and wanted to spend all of my time focusing on my interests, it's been that way ever since. When I am with people I very rarely get that feeling of relaxing and just enjoying it now.

But yes, I took a long, erm, break from employment and basically shut myself out from everyone that I didn't HAVE to deal with.


I already knew. Dr. Darold Treffert, MD is the preeminent authority on savant syndrome. His advice paraphrased: train the talent and in doing so it can become a conduit for better socialization. In my humble opinion, this applies to those across the entire spectrum. IF you acquire socialization skills mostly through training and practicing instead of instinctually then it makes sense THAT an extended break from practice could cause problems in ToM and other aspects of socialization.

Once, you enter your early twenties, the game of life becomes more intricate. It is considered 'the transition' into adulthood. IF your peers and others around you are 'upping' their level of socialization; it could appear as if you are becoming more Autistic.

It's a lifetime condition. I could sit in front of this computer all day long, overtime, affecting neuroplasticity BUT it probably want improve my social mind in regards to individual and group interaction off line.

TheSunAlsoRises



Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on 16 Feb 2012, 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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15 Feb 2012, 11:46 am

I'm pretty sure that "they" aren't sure about anything at all.



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15 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

I would tend to agree with the view that burn out or a gradual increase of depression or anxiety will make your symptons appear worse.. I think I would feel a lot better about myself if I knew the reason..

I listened to John Robison's book Be Different this week - very inspirational well worth a read or listen! One point he made is that aspergers is predominately a delay in social awareness and skills, so there is the possibility to catch up with your peers.. So all other things being equal you should appear less autistic with age,

I'm not convinced that NTs continue to exponentially increase their social skills throughout life, so,it should be possible to catch up.. I am a bit tired of the camouflage at the moment, but I go through these phases every few years and eventually snap out of it,

Jason



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15 Feb 2012, 3:32 pm

TheSunAlsoRises wrote:
Jaz1787 wrote:
What a fantastic topic!

I had been wondering this myself. I did think that MAYBE with age, and now I recognise and acknowledge I may have Aspergers, that I am just noticing more.

But it is interesting to read I am not the only person to have been considering this.

I am concur with the bit about socialising less. Now I don't attend school I just have my job (computer based), my partner (who let's face it, is probably AS too) and my sport (horse riding) I've found I've sunk back into a little comfort zone where I don't do anything that I don't feel like.


The Autists, whom are able to attend school from kindergarten to high school, will often-times begin and end their primary socialization in those institutions. A large number do not go on to post secondary education or become employed. Many Autistics have few friends and rely solely on family (with limited contact) for social interaction. So, in essence, the critical opportunities needed to transition socially into adulthood are unavailable.


This is analogous to sporadically training an athlete in little league, elementary school, and high school football. Then, the athlete receives no college football training and no pro football training yet there is bewilderment why said athlete is unable to perform in the super bowl, straight off the warm up bench.

TheSunAlsoRises


I like this analogy :)


Jtuk wrote:
I would tend to agree with the view that burn out or a gradual increase of depression or anxiety will make your symptons appear worse.. I think I would feel a lot better about myself if I knew the reason..

Jason


I also agree with this, and was pondering it yesterday. In times of stress I can feel myself coping less with people, noises, light, I get more OCD and I say things I shouldn't because I didn't pause to think about it first

I have been pretty stressed lately, and even if i don't feel stressed at the time, I can feel that I've sunk down a bit more. I had a terrible time trying to listen to my boss talk to me yesterday, and I got few funny looks from people when I zoned out and sat tapping my fingers together. Thanks goodness for headphones, people assume I can't her them because of the music, and not because I was zoned out or hyper-focused


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15 Feb 2012, 4:37 pm

My social skills have got better but my anxiety issues have got worse.


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15 Feb 2012, 5:03 pm

Joe90 wrote:
My social skills have got better but my anxiety issues have got worse.


I read a lot of your posts, as well as, others.

You worry a lot about what others may be thinking of you and you analyze the motives behind how strangers act towards you. This can lead to a lot of anxiety and stress.


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15 Feb 2012, 5:35 pm

Losing ToM means you had ToM. I don't see this as a spectrum scenario.

ToM is developed over time and is a subconscious processes. We don't think about obtaining this. You had it and lost some of it.
This doesn't have AS earmarks.

I go through periods of losing it (ToM) and gaining it back. It's all cognition centered or related. It's like an amnesia as I felt as though I woke up one day and started a cognitive decline at 19. I used to think I was bipolar; bipolar is analogous to a pre-cognitive seizure, thus the anti-convulsants maintain it. My cognition would swing to better or worse; hence polarizing.

Some days or periods are better than others. I can do long stretches of OK'd-ness and drop off the cliff of ToM.

It's cognitive based altogether, and this would preclude it as having any AS signature. Though I believe them to be related.

Schizophrenic has a niche in one side of fam. too.

You had enough ToM in your 20's and did OK. Ive noted in other posts you never had problems with body language and understanding intentions via this. Not AS.

I've seen brain image scans showing significant and differing white matter concentrations and some grey matter changes vs controls.

In reality it's a messed up head on the inside. This doesn't surprise me. Un- scientific here but my head is quite large even for my height (74 inches with a head at 25 inches circumference). And to wear a hat or a helmet nothing fits. It's laughable. Been called bottle top :lol: . Some say it correlates with high intelligence and maybe so if I could use it all with out these ill-effects.



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15 Feb 2012, 5:44 pm

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
We neuroscientists have much


You're a neuroscientist at age 24?



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15 Feb 2012, 5:47 pm

Just a thought, but maybe you're not getting worse.

Maybe you're just now gaining some insight and realizing things that have been there all along.



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15 Feb 2012, 6:11 pm

Joe90 wrote:
My social skills have got better but my anxiety issues have got worse.


Anxiety is treatable if not curable, so don't get down on yourself so much, you have done the hard bit if your social skills are improving!

Jason



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15 Feb 2012, 6:35 pm

Mdyar wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
I do know that there is also an unfortunate chance of developing psychosis or schizophrenia but that's not what I mean.

I noticed a change around 23...interesting because of the genetic link between AS and schizophrenia, this is right around the time one might also become mentally ill.

But it wasn't like that at all, it's more like I'm just developing into the childhood portrait of AS, although my social skills are obviously not as lacking as a 5 year old's might be since I've lived 27 years and have learned a lot, but I do not have as much control as I used to.

I never had so much trouble with TOM before, now it's like I REALLY don't understand people, when they speak if they don't use very clear and direct language. I just can't get their meaning, because it's so hard to diverge from my own thinking. Any extra words they use confuse me, I won't comprehend them and have to ask them to repeat if what they're saying is important, I used to ENJOY witty banter.
wise but I
I should add, I'm still capable of humor but it feels like MUCH more of an act now, and often times when people laugh at me I'm not even trying to be funny.

Those are the main things that have really changed, I feel fine otherwise and my concentration has actually improved in some areas, I feel like I'm less affected by ADHD and more affected by AS, I suppose. It's been four years since I've TRULY felt like my old self, but I haven't lost my mind so I'm starting to think this is just the new me.

Anyone have a similar experience as me? Perhaps this more common among women?



Losing ToM means you had ToM. I don't see this as a spectrum scenario.

ToM is developed over time and is a subconscious processes. We don't think about obtaining this. You had it and lost some of it.
This doesn't have AS earmarks.

I go through periods of losing it (ToM) and gaining it back. It's all cognition centered or related. It's like an amnesia as I felt as though I woke up one day and started a cognitive decline at 19. I used to think I was bipolar; bipolar is analogous to a pre-cognitive seizure, thus the anti-convulsants maintain it. My cognition would swing to better or worse; hence polarizing.

Some days or periods are better than others. I can do long stretches of OK'd-ness and drop off the cliff of ToM.

It's cognitive based altogether, and this would preclude it as having any AS signature. Though I believe them to be related.

My folks are Schizophrenic too.

You had enough ToM in your 20's and did OK. Ive noted in other posts you never had problems with body language and understanding intentions via this. Not AS.

I've seen brain image scans showing significant and differing white matter concentrations and some grey matter changes vs controls.

In reality it's a messed up head on the inside. This doesn't surprise me. Un- scientific here but my head is quite large even for my height (74 inches with a head at 25 inches circumference). And to wear a hat or a helmet nothing fits. It's laughable. Been called bottle top :lol: . Some say it correlates with high intelligence and maybe so if I could use it all with out these ill-effects.


Yep, I think I'm NVLD anyway because I never had issues with body language or TOM(although they say some with NVLD do but this is a source of debate) and I also have the skill set and deficits associated with NVLD. I did have issues understanding more complex social situations and "hidden" meanings, but I think this is actually accepted as NVLD and not autism by the medical community, it's such a thin line, though. I wonder if one might not "become Aspie" later in life since they aren't really sure of anything.

But really I think that since the two are so closely related certain factors might make an NVLDer appear and feel more autistic sometimes.

Four years is still a long time, but I think it might have to do with growing up, as well.


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15 Feb 2012, 10:35 pm

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
"They" aren't sure of ANYTHING. We neuroscientists have much, much to learn about how the neurotypical mind works, let alone the minds of those of us with neuropsych disorders. "They" aren't even sure AS is autism or a form of NVLD yet, despite everybody saying that it is definitely autism.


Despite presenting with the same symptoms and basically being indistinguishable from verbal autistic individuals. Despite the fact that people diagnosed autistic and people diagnosed AS describing extremely similar cognitive styles and sensory issues.

It's like CP is CP whether it means you need braces and/or crutches to walk or you're completely unable to move or talk. Obviously, the neurological damage in the latter case is more extensive than in the former case, but it's basically given the same label and likely has very similar etiology. When it comes to autism and AS, somehow, that ability to speak early or on time is given huge weight, while other common features are handwaved away or simply ignored.