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jbw
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18 May 2016, 2:34 am

Many communication difficulties result from differences in skill/knowledge profiles and interests. I think I've come up with a useful visualisation, elaborating the notion of a T shaped skill/knowledge profile. In the diagrams below, the total [area of] knowledge in both cases is the same; different brains are used in different ways.

Image

Neurotypical knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Intuitive social skills seem to be the native/first language, and social conformance is of similar importance as special interests are for Aspies.
2. Deep expertise can be expected in relation to a particular profession.
3. Knowledge of further domains is very broad and rather superficial.

Aspie knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Special interests are the native/first language, and in some areas knowledge can be exceptionally deep.
2. Knowledge of further domains is less broad and deeper than neurotypical. We are very clear about what we understand and what we don't understand. In any domain we chose to learn about, we tend to quickly become familiar with all the different aspects that are relevant. There are some domains we can't be bothered with at all, because it would compromise the time available for our special interests or for advancing our understanding of other domains in adequate depth.
3. Intuitive social skills are minimal. Social conformance is not a major consideration. Others are treated as human peers, and not as people with specific social status and entitlements. We care a lot about others, but we are lousy at interpreting social cues in real time because of sensory overload, and hence may react in ways that are surprising to others.
4. Because human behaviour can be very puzzling, the topic can become a special interest – in in order to better understand observed behaviours, and to compensate for the lack of social intuition, especially once we are aware of the neurotypical preoccupation with social conformance.

Rules of thumb for NT-Aspie communication
1. Unless there is a shared interest, conversations can be boring for both sides. Avoid conversations without a clear purpose.
2. The neurotypical tendency to give weight to social "authority" rather than domain expertise is a potential source of disagreement for both sides. There is no substitute for mutual patience and tolerance. Some social rituals are unavoidable; and some depth of domain expertise is essential to avoid failure.
3. Small talk is only relevant to the NT and is largely wasted on the Aspie. Keep it short and simple when talking with an Aspie :-)
4. Many details are only relevant to the Aspie and are largely wasted on the NT. Keep it short and simple when talking with an NT :-)
5. Default neurotypical mode is verbal, default Aspie mode is often writing and artefact based. A white board discussion is a great communication bridge, at least in my case.

Are these observations compatible with your experience?



nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 2:44 am

jbw wrote:
Many communication difficulties result from differences in skill/knowledge profiles and interests. I think I've come up with a useful visualisation, elaborating the notion of a T shaped skill/knowledge profile. In the diagrams below, the total [area of] knowledge in both cases is the same; different brains are used in different ways.

Image

Neurotypical knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Intuitive social skills seem to be the native/first language, and social conformance is of similar importance as special interests are for Aspies.
2. Deep expertise can be expected in relation to a particular profession.
3. Knowledge of further domains is very broad and rather superficial.

Aspie knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Special interests are the native/first language, and in some areas knowledge can be exceptionally deep.
2. Knowledge of further domains is less broad and deeper than neurotypical. We are very clear about what we understand and what we don't understand. In any domain we chose to learn about, we tend to quickly become familiar with all the different aspects that are relevant. There are some domains we can't be bothered with at all, because it would compromise the time available for our special interests or for advancing our understanding of other domains in adequate depth.
3. Intuitive social skills are minimal. Social conformance is not a major consideration. Others are treated as human peers, and not as people with specific social status and entitlements. We care a lot about others, but we are lousy at interpreting social cues in real time because of sensory overload, and hence may react in ways that are surprising to others.
4. Because human behaviour can be very puzzling, the topic can become a special interest – in in order to better understand observed behaviours, and to compensate for the lack of social intuition, especially once we are aware of the neurotypical preoccupation with social conformance.

Rules of thumb for NT-Aspie communication
1. Unless there is a shared interest, conversations can be boring for both sides. Avoid conversations without a clear purpose.
2. The neurotypical tendency to give weight to social "authority" rather than domain expertise is a potential source of disagreement for both sides. There is no substitute for mutual patience and tolerance. Some social rituals are unavoidable; and some depth of domain expertise is essential to avoid failure.
3. Small talk is only relevant to the NT and is largely wasted on the Aspie. Keep it short and simple when talking with an Aspie :-)
4. Many details are only relevant to the Aspie and are largely wasted on the NT. Keep it short and simple when talking with an NT :-)
5. Default neurotypical mode is verbal, default Aspie mode is often writing and artefact based. A white board discussion is a great communication bridge, at least in my case.

Are these observations compatible with your experience?


Woopsie! Double post.


_________________
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I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


Last edited by nurseangela on 18 May 2016, 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 2:54 am

jbw wrote:
Many communication difficulties result from differences in skill/knowledge profiles and interests. I think I've come up with a useful visualisation, elaborating the notion of a T shaped skill/knowledge profile. In the diagrams below, the total [area of] knowledge in both cases is the same; different brains are used in different ways.

Image

Neurotypical knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Intuitive social skills seem to be the native/first language, and social conformance is of similar importance as special interests are for Aspies.
2. Deep expertise can be expected in relation to a particular profession.
3. Knowledge of further domains is very broad and rather superficial.

Aspie knowledge profile and mode of communication
1. Special interests are the native/first language, and in some areas knowledge can be exceptionally deep.
2. Knowledge of further domains is less broad and deeper than neurotypical. We are very clear about what we understand and what we don't understand. In any domain we chose to learn about, we tend to quickly become familiar with all the different aspects that are relevant. There are some domains we can't be bothered with at all, because it would compromise the time available for our special interests or for advancing our understanding of other domains in adequate depth.
3. Intuitive social skills are minimal. Social conformance is not a major consideration. Others are treated as human peers, and not as people with specific social status and entitlements. We care a lot about others, but we are lousy at interpreting social cues in real time because of sensory overload, and hence may react in ways that are surprising to others.
4. Because human behaviour can be very puzzling, the topic can become a special interest – in in order to better understand observed behaviours, and to compensate for the lack of social intuition, especially once we are aware of the neurotypical preoccupation with social conformance.

Rules of thumb for NT-Aspie communication
1. Unless there is a shared interest, conversations can be boring for both sides. Avoid conversations without a clear purpose.
2. The neurotypical tendency to give weight to social "authority" rather than domain expertise is a potential source of disagreement for both sides. There is no substitute for mutual patience and tolerance. Some social rituals are unavoidable; and some depth of domain expertise is essential to avoid failure.
3. Small talk is only relevant to the NT and is largely wasted on the Aspie. Keep it short and simple when talking with an Aspie :-)
4. Many details are only relevant to the Aspie and are largely wasted on the NT. Keep it short and simple when talking with an NT :-)
5. Default neurotypical mode is verbal, default Aspie mode is often writing and artefact based. A white board discussion is a great communication bridge, at least in my case.

Are these observations compatible with your experience?


Problem with NT Aspie communication #1 - avoiding conversations without a purpose.
I need small talk. Maybe get Aspie noise protectors and some sun glasses and have them learn how to nod while saying "uh, huh." This could go with #3 too. :mrgreen:

I don't understand 4, but if I can get my small talk needs met with #4 - keep it long. :mrgreen:


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 3:07 am

I have a question. Why is it when I'm asking important questions during a conversation with an Aspie, why do they all of a sudden leave and don't answer my questions? It makes me feel very unimportant and stupid.

OR I'll send an email with maybe 3-4 questions, but only 1-2 or maybe none will be answered. I keep wondering do they just don't want to answer or did they miss the questions? I don't get it. I don't like to bother people by asking questions more than once and I keep thinking is the question I asked too dumb?


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


jbw
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18 May 2016, 6:31 am

Quote:
Why is it when I'm asking important questions during a conversation with an Aspie, why do they all of a sudden leave and don't answer my questions?

Can you elaborate? Does this happen often?

I always try to answer all questions that I am asked. In my experience the main challenge is not to bore an NT with a long and exhaustive answer, hence the suggestion to Aspies to avoid overly detailed answers when talking to an NT, especially if the question does not relate to the professional domain of expertise of the NT.

I can imagine that some questions are ignored, in particular by Aspie children and teenagers with limited self awareness. The Aspie may have the impression that the other person was not paying proper attention, or may feel that what had been said prior to the question already contains the answer.

If an Aspie child has plenty of experience of not being listened to, which can easily happen if the parents don't make a serious effort to understand the Aspie perspective, then this may lead to ignorance of questions.

Quote:
OR I'll send an email with maybe 3-4 questions, but only 1-2 or maybe none will be answered. I keep wondering do they just don't want to answer or did they miss the questions? I don't get it. I don't like to bother people by asking questions more than once and I keep thinking is the question I asked too dumb?


Perhaps the questions are not clear or precise enough? An Aspie may not feel comfortable answering a question that can be interpreted in several different ways.

Another point to consider is the difference in the general knowledge profile (blue areas in the diagram in the OP).

The narrower general knowledge/skills/interest profile of the Aspie means that your question may fall into a domain that is of no interest whatsoever to the Aspie. For example, I have absolutely no interest in any popular team sports and a number of other topics. At the same time, the general knowledge/skills/interest profile of the Aspie is deeper, and an immature Aspie may indeed be bored by a seemingly "trivial" question in one of the domains that is within focus, even it is not a special interest.

These are possible difficulties that can easily be illustrated by overlaying the two visual knowledge profiles in the OP on top of each other, and mentally shifting one of the profiles to the right or left, to visualise the impact depending on the extent to which there is an overlap of domains in relation to the particular topic under discussion.



nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 8:52 am

jbw wrote:
Quote:
Why is it when I'm asking important questions during a conversation with an Aspie, why do they all of a sudden leave and don't answer my questions?

Can you elaborate? Does this happen often?

I always try to answer all questions that I am asked. In my experience the main challenge is not to bore an NT with a long and exhaustive answer, hence the suggestion to Aspies to avoid overly detailed answers when talking to an NT, especially if the question does not relate to the professional domain of expertise of the NT.

I can imagine that some questions are ignored, in particular by Aspie children and teenagers with limited self awareness. The Aspie may have the impression that the other person was not paying proper attention, or may feel that what had been said prior to the question already contains the answer.

If an Aspie child has plenty of experience of not being listened to, which can easily happen if the parents don't make a serious effort to understand the Aspie perspective, then this may lead to ignorance of questions.

Quote:
OR I'll send an email with maybe 3-4 questions, but only 1-2 or maybe none will be answered. I keep wondering do they just don't want to answer or did they miss the questions? I don't get it. I don't like to bother people by asking questions more than once and I keep thinking is the question I asked too dumb?


Perhaps the questions are not clear or precise enough? An Aspie may not feel comfortable answering a question that can be interpreted in several different ways.

Another point to consider is the difference in the general knowledge profile (blue areas in the diagram in the OP).

The narrower general knowledge/skills/interest profile of the Aspie means that your question may fall into a domain that is of no interest whatsoever to the Aspie. For example, I have absolutely no interest in any popular team sports and a number of other topics. At the same time, the general knowledge/skills/interest profile of the Aspie is deeper, and an immature Aspie may indeed be bored by a seemingly "trivial" question in one of the domains that is within focus, even it is not a special interest.

These are possible difficulties that can easily be illustrated by overlaying the two visual knowledge profiles in the OP on top of each other, and mentally shifting one of the profiles to the right or left, to visualise the impact depending on the extent to which there is an overlap of domains in relation to the particular topic under discussion.


Actually it has happened with several Aspies including the ones I used to text - questions would go unanswered to the point that I would just say "if there is something you don't want to answer just let me know and I won't ask it again." Usually questions towards the end are answered and earlier questions in the email or text are not.

If I'm talking about something that is of no interest to them, why can't the Aspie keep listening and try to get something out of it - when they talk about something uninteresting to me, I still try to keep them engaged because I know it's an interest of theirs even if the subject is of no interest to me. Can't Aspies do this too? The only time I absolutely can't listen to an Aspie is when the subject is incredibly advanced and big words are being used - my brain actually shuts down because no matter how many times I read what they are saying I can't understand - the level of wording is too advanced. Still, why can't they listen to me about a topic that doesn't interest them? Maybe they will learn something new.

Example :my ex Aspie friend like boxing. Definitely not my cup of tea, but I knew it was his interest so I looked it up and studied it some, asked him questions so he talked about it more and I actually started to enjoy boxing myself. Why can't Aspies do this? I have read several times how Aspies have said they have no interest in talking or doing anything that absolutely doesn't interest them. Why should I then try to engage them in things that interest them? It's supposed to be give and take - that's how a friendship works.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


spinelli
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18 May 2016, 11:41 am

Nurse Angela, I am one of the ASD people who wants to listen to what's important to someone else.

What are you interested in? ☺



jbw
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18 May 2016, 6:54 pm

Perhaps visual language helps to explain the differences and potential problems:

Image

Between two NTs from the same cultural background there are many topics to talk about, usually at a level that an Aspie might consider as superficial small talk. The interaction serves the purpose of meeting the social needs of the NTs.

Image

The room for mutually interesting conversations between an Aspie and an NT is limited if there is no shared interest in the profession of the NT (a domain that the NT knows a lot about). Furthermore the Aspie is lacking in intuitive, unconscious, and real time social processing capability, and therefore will not respond as expected to non verbal cues.

Image

If however there is a shared domain of deep interest, then the conversation can work extremely well, and the Aspie has found an interface to the NT world.

Image

Interactions between two Aspies are in many cases very enjoyable. This forum is a case in point :-)

Image

But due to the narrower knowledge profile of Aspies, there is also the possibility of complete disconnect between two Aspies.

Please note that the pictures above and the width and depth of the different boxes are illustrative only, such that reality is less black and white. Nevertheless, I think the scenarios outlined above explain a lot of the experiences that I've had.

Lastly, it is common for Aspies to develop a special interest in human behaviour. Below is an illustration of my special interests, which so far have been pretty useful for communicating with others, compensating for a lack in intuitive social skills.

Image



nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 7:45 pm

spinelli wrote:
Nurse Angela, I am one of the ASD people who wants to listen to what's important to someone else.

What are you interested in? ☺


That's sweet. I don't know what to small talk about right now - I usually have the problem when I'm in the middle of a conversation. Maybe it's not even the subject, but just me small talking in general. Idk.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


animalcrackers
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18 May 2016, 7:57 pm

nurseangela wrote:
I have a question. Why is it when I'm asking important questions during a conversation with an Aspie, why do they all of a sudden leave and don't answer my questions? It makes me feel very unimportant and stupid.

OR I'll send an email with maybe 3-4 questions, but only 1-2 or maybe none will be answered. I keep wondering do they just don't want to answer or did they miss the questions? I don't get it. I don't like to bother people by asking questions more than once and I keep thinking is the question I asked too dumb?



NT people do this, too, I think it is just a human thing. It can drive me nuts sometimes and I often wonder if people either haven't read/listened carefully or are distracted, if they forget all questions except the last one/first one/whichever they are most focused on, if they don't know how to answer, or if they somehow think that only one question is important and the others will not be there/be less important once that one question in answered...or maybe they just interpret everything I say so much that it becomes condensed into one question or into a question I never asked.


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Last edited by animalcrackers on 18 May 2016, 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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18 May 2016, 7:58 pm

The weather always works :D

That's one of my special interests, and it's supposed to be a "small-talk" topic.



nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 8:02 pm

animalcrackers wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
I have a question. Why is it when I'm asking important questions during a conversation with an Aspie, why do they all of a sudden leave and don't answer my questions? It makes me feel very unimportant and stupid.

OR I'll send an email with maybe 3-4 questions, but only 1-2 or maybe none will be answered. I keep wondering do they just don't want to answer or did they miss the questions? I don't get it. I don't like to bother people by asking questions more than once and I keep thinking is the question I asked too dumb?



NT people do this, too, I think it is just a human thing. It can drive me nuts sometimes and I often wonder if people either haven't read/listened carefully or are distracted, if they forget all questions except the last one/first one/whichever they are most focused on, if they don't know how to answer, or if they somehow think that only one question is important and the others will not be there/be less important once that one question in answered...or maybe they just interpret everything I say so much that it becomes condensed into one question or into a question I never asked.


I'm laughing because I couldn't focus after reading half of what you said.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 8:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The weather always works :D

That's one of my special interests, and it's supposed to be a "small-talk" topic.


You and my Ma could talk for hours - she loves weather convo.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


animalcrackers
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18 May 2016, 8:11 pm

nurseangela wrote:
I'm laughing because I couldn't focus after reading half of what you said.


Ah well, I get rambly and don't always format stuff nicely (I am the king of the run-on sentence).

At least I didn't ask you any questions.


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jbw
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18 May 2016, 8:14 pm

Quote:
Problem with NT Aspie communication #1 - avoiding conversations without a purpose.
I need small talk. Maybe get Aspie noise protectors and some sun glasses and have them learn how to nod while saying "uh, huh." This could go with #3 too. :mrgreen:


“Speech is silver and silence is golden.” must be of Aspie origin ;-)

Quote:
I don't understand 4, but if I can get my small talk needs met with #4 - keep it long. :mrgreen:


Maybe less can be more? ;-)



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18 May 2016, 8:47 pm

If you think our "small-talk needs" are bad, check out some African cultures.

When two people greet each other in these, each person has to ask about the other person, plus their families. Sometimes ten questions or more. Sometimes more than five questions for each person. The whole greeting thing frequently takes more than five minutes.

Imagine if one person meet five other people? The one person has to ask about the families of the other people, plus they have to ask about the families of that one person. Very time-consuming.