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Indy
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17 Aug 2012, 10:20 am

outofplace wrote:
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outofplace wrote:
Even going from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint you can justify it as the Bible tells you not to bear false witness against your neighbor, not to never lie at all (unless I am wrong on this point and please correct me if I am.)


Romans 1 lists lying as a sign of a 'depraved mind', along with gossiping, being arrogant, being boastful... But then it says in Romans 2 that that is why people shouldn't judge one another, because we're all sinners. I'm not a Christian but my understanding is that Christians vary in how much authority they give the Bible and even in whether they believe in sin. So, I have heard some Christians say "you should never lie, it's a sin" and others say "it depends on the circumstances". I'm trying to avoid starting a debate on the ethics of lying, I just want to share that part of the Bible with you.


I went through Romans 1 (starting at verse 28, where your quote came from) and I didn't see anything about lying, at least not in the general sense. Maybe it's not listed in the NAS translation though. However, the point I see is that of trustworthiness. You can tell a few white lies and still be trustworthy. By white lies I mean things like not giving a fully honest answer about your opinion on someone's hair style, etc., not something intended to defraud someone. Plus, I doubt scripture would hold anything against you if you had to lie to protect the life of an innocent third party. I guess that the principle I take from it is not to lie in order to be self-serving.

Here would be an example: If you knew someone intended to kill another person and they asked you where they were and you knew, yet you did not tell them the truth, would that make your actions evil? Of course not. However, if you lied to someone and told them you were dying in order to get them to have sex with you than yes, that would make your actions evil. One action is looking out for the well-being of another person and the other is self-serving.

It's important to note that Christian Scriptural interpretation is done by trying to find the overriding principle rather than taking it in a 100% literal sense all of the times. This is different from, say Islam where the Qur'an is only to be read as 100% literal with no wiggle room for interpretation by the individual. (or at least that is my understanding of how it is dealt with in Islam. If I am incorrect than I apologize. I mean no offense.)

Romans 1:29 lists "deceit" as something that is worthy of death. Lying is saying something untrue with the aim of deceiving. I don't think Paul meant this as an overriding principal. I think he meant it 100% literally. He says that disobeying your parents or gossiping means you deserve to be killed. Those are not the words of someone who believes that the little things don't really count.

If this is important to you then I would point out that it's up to you whether you agree with Paul or not. Most Christians disagree with him on at least something, even those Christians that believe that the Bible should be interpreted 100% literally. For example, I've yet to meet a Christian who accepts Paul's rule that women should keep silent in church (1 Corinthians).

I don't agree with your example. It's too extreme to derive a general principle from it. Even if lying under those circumstances was okay it wouldn't mean that lying under normal everyday circumstances is okay. I think that there are always alternatives to lying. I can refuse to answer or get involved. I can try to calm the person down. Or, I would do the most probable thing: wet myself and become unable to speak (has happened before - becoming mute, not the wetting myself bit).

I agree that lying varies a lot in how bad it is, and that occasionally lying doesn't mean that you are untrustworthy. I think that the ethics of lying are very complicated and that everyone has to work out for themselves what they think is okay. But, I believe that there are always alternatives to lying (even if it involves wetting myself).



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17 Aug 2012, 10:25 am

OP - the fact that you see it as a moral issue and are bothered by it is already not typical of NTs, from what I gather. They see no problem with those "little white lies".

Also: I'm not going to say much about this because it's upsetting me too much, but those of you who are saying "people who say they don't lie, are lying" need to stop. That conventional wisdom bullshit is not true, no matter how much you might like it to be, and it's very hurtful. As for social repercussions, you're on a board for people with AS, how many here do you think can get through social interactions smoothly? Not everyone is like you, and assuming that is downright toxic.



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17 Aug 2012, 10:32 am

I am not saying I have never lied in my life, but close to never, and I have no problem believing those who say they never lie, and I have a big problem with people who go around saying "everyone does this or that" and accusing others of lying on that basis. I think it's something people who feel guilty do to feel better about themselves, and it's a nasty attack on the other person/people, whether they realize it or not.



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17 Aug 2012, 11:07 am

I lie a little too and have done so in the past to avoid trouble. I don't believe that someone doesn't literally lie when they say they don't lie or can't tell a lie. I mean can they not write a story then if they can't lie? Lying is like telling a story and telling a story is like lying except everyone knows it's not true.

I'd be lying if I said I have never lied before or can't lie. When I say I don't lie, I don't mean it literally of course. Also when people say they can't lie, they mean they are not good at it. They can lie literally but when they do lie, people know they are lying or the truth comes out eventually and people find out they were lying. Or it can mean they feel too bad if they lie and hate doing it so they prefer not to do it.

I also have the term accidental lying and I count that as being able to lie or tell a lie. But if someone is literally unable to lie, what if they had to protect an innocent person from being beaten up by a bully, so the person is hiding in your home and their bully comes by and asks you where the victim is. Would you not be able to say you haven't seen him? If you can do that in this situation, then you are able to lie and can tell a lie.


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17 Aug 2012, 11:35 am

League_Girl wrote:
I lie a little too and have done so in the past to avoid trouble. I don't believe that someone doesn't literally lie when they say they don't lie or can't tell a lie. I mean can they not write a story then if they can't lie? Lying is like telling a story and telling a story is like lying except everyone knows it's not true.


That's illogical. If everyone knows it's not true, it's not lying, and besides, I'm sure there are people who can't tell stories either. There is a difference between "don't lie" and "can't lie", and neither one is impossible.

League_Girl wrote:
I'd be lying if I said I have never lied before or can't lie. When I say I don't lie, I don't mean it literally of course. Also when people say they can't lie, they mean they are not good at it. They can lie literally but when they do lie, people know they are lying or the truth comes out eventually and people find out they were lying. Or it can mean they feel too bad if they lie and hate doing it so they prefer not to do it.


Just because you don't mean it literally doesn't mean no one does, in either case. Stop assuming you can read other people's minds.



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17 Aug 2012, 11:52 am

OP, why do you call yourself an Aspie if you weren't diagnosed? That's like saying that there's a cat under my bed without checking whether there's one or not.



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17 Aug 2012, 11:54 am

Oh well, I'm being too harsh here. I believe the people who say they literally either don't or can't lie. I see no reason not to. It doesn't strike me as impossible and I have great difficulty understanding why so many people insist it is. I lie very rarely and when I have it was always a choice: I could very easily have chosen not to and would then have been someone who does not lie. That doesn't mean I think people who lie are evil: it seems I have a "hang-up" about lying, and I don't find it at all hard to believe that some people have an even stronger inhibition about it that will not allow them ever lie.

Really, though, it strikes me as very wrong how some people on here are making assumptions about everyone else: even though it seems to be what they OP might like to hear, it isn't true. Not everyone lies. All it takes is one example to disprove that, so it's obviously nonsense. The fact that it bugs me so much is probably part of my hang-up about lying, truth, and accuracy, but there you go. Saying that is a bit like telling asexual people that everyone wants sex (with regard to lying, I feel like an asexual person who has maybe had sex a few times and therefore can't get people to believe that they are actually asexual!)



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17 Aug 2012, 12:26 pm

Indy wrote:
outofplace wrote:
Indy wrote:
outofplace wrote:
Even going from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint you can justify it as the Bible tells you not to bear false witness against your neighbor, not to never lie at all (unless I am wrong on this point and please correct me if I am.)


Romans 1 lists lying as a sign of a 'depraved mind', along with gossiping, being arrogant, being boastful... But then it says in Romans 2 that that is why people shouldn't judge one another, because we're all sinners. I'm not a Christian but my understanding is that Christians vary in how much authority they give the Bible and even in whether they believe in sin. So, I have heard some Christians say "you should never lie, it's a sin" and others say "it depends on the circumstances". I'm trying to avoid starting a debate on the ethics of lying, I just want to share that part of the Bible with you.


I went through Romans 1 (starting at verse 28, where your quote came from) and I didn't see anything about lying, at least not in the general sense. Maybe it's not listed in the NAS translation though. However, the point I see is that of trustworthiness. You can tell a few white lies and still be trustworthy. By white lies I mean things like not giving a fully honest answer about your opinion on someone's hair style, etc., not something intended to defraud someone. Plus, I doubt scripture would hold anything against you if you had to lie to protect the life of an innocent third party. I guess that the principle I take from it is not to lie in order to be self-serving.

Here would be an example: If you knew someone intended to kill another person and they asked you where they were and you knew, yet you did not tell them the truth, would that make your actions evil? Of course not. However, if you lied to someone and told them you were dying in order to get them to have sex with you than yes, that would make your actions evil. One action is looking out for the well-being of another person and the other is self-serving.

It's important to note that Christian Scriptural interpretation is done by trying to find the overriding principle rather than taking it in a 100% literal sense all of the times. This is different from, say Islam where the Qur'an is only to be read as 100% literal with no wiggle room for interpretation by the individual. (or at least that is my understanding of how it is dealt with in Islam. If I am incorrect than I apologize. I mean no offense.)

Romans 1:29 lists "deceit" as something that is worthy of death. Lying is saying something untrue with the aim of deceiving. I don't think Paul meant this as an overriding principal. I think he meant it 100% literally. He says that disobeying your parents or gossiping means you deserve to be killed. Those are not the words of someone who believes that the little things don't really count.

If this is important to you then I would point out that it's up to you whether you agree with Paul or not. Most Christians disagree with him on at least something, even those Christians that believe that the Bible should be interpreted 100% literally. For example, I've yet to meet a Christian who accepts Paul's rule that women should keep silent in church (1 Corinthians).

I don't agree with your example. It's too extreme to derive a general principle from it. Even if lying under those circumstances was okay it wouldn't mean that lying under normal everyday circumstances is okay. I think that there are always alternatives to lying. I can refuse to answer or get involved. I can try to calm the person down. Or, I would do the most probable thing: wet myself and become unable to speak (has happened before - becoming mute, not the wetting myself bit).

I agree that lying varies a lot in how bad it is, and that occasionally lying doesn't mean that you are untrustworthy. I think that the ethics of lying are very complicated and that everyone has to work out for themselves what they think is okay. But, I believe that there are always alternatives to lying (even if it involves wetting myself).


Yes, but ALL sin is worthy of death. The main point of Romans chapter one is to point out the utter depravity of man and his inability to redeem himself, not to state that all sinners of this sort need to be put to death. Remember that to Christians there are two kinds of death: death of the physical body and spiritual death. The body is corrupt by it's very nature (original sin) but the soul can be redeemed and saved from spiritual death (death without knowing Christ which then leads to judgement for the sins you committed in this life and separation from God in eternity). The whole point of Christ's death on the cross was a substitutionary sacrifice to give man an escape from his sins that he could never do for himself. Thus, salvation is an escape from (spiritual) death.


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17 Aug 2012, 12:45 pm

I lie, but I'm usually more sacrcastic than a liar. There's only a select couple of people who can tell when I'm lying too.



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17 Aug 2012, 1:12 pm

Nonperson wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I lie a little too and have done so in the past to avoid trouble. I don't believe that someone doesn't literally lie when they say they don't lie or can't tell a lie. I mean can they not write a story then if they can't lie? Lying is like telling a story and telling a story is like lying except everyone knows it's not true.


That's illogical. If everyone knows it's not true, it's not lying, and besides, I'm sure there are people who can't tell stories either. There is a difference between "don't lie" and "can't lie", and neither one is impossible.

League_Girl wrote:
I'd be lying if I said I have never lied before or can't lie. When I say I don't lie, I don't mean it literally of course. Also when people say they can't lie, they mean they are not good at it. They can lie literally but when they do lie, people know they are lying or the truth comes out eventually and people find out they were lying. Or it can mean they feel too bad if they lie and hate doing it so they prefer not to do it.


Just because you don't mean it literally doesn't mean no one does, in either case. Stop assuming you can read other people's minds.



Here is a thread I started once when I learned I was taking "Unable to lie" too literal.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt178444.html


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17 Aug 2012, 1:27 pm

Sure, it might mean that when an NT says it, but there are people on this forum who say they literally can't lie and imo we should take their word for it. There is no reason to question them.



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17 Aug 2012, 1:40 pm

I feel I lie MORE than NTs (which doesn't mean to say I am lying right now, I just mean little white lies). I don't believe that NTs are liars. In fact a lot tell the truth. When I'm talking to somebody I'm not too sure I like, and they ask me something what a true answer to will be a ''yes'' and a false answer will be a ''no'', I sometimes just say ''no'' just to get me out of talking too much to them, (that is, if saying ''no'' will also make sense, of course). But I've often seen other people say the true answer and carry on talking, even if they don't like them, and even if saying the non-honest answer will not be rude. For example, if somebody I didn't like very much asked me where I was going, I might say, ''I'm just going home'', even if I was going shopping or going to somebody's house, otherwise they might ask me what I am doing or who I am seeing or something, so I just find lying is a quicker and simpler answer to give, sometimes (depending on the context of the situation).

I'm not sure if this is lying or not, but the other day I dropped something wet and sticky on the floor while my mum was in the same room, and while she was busy doing something, I quickly picked it up, threw it in the bin, wiped a cloth over where I dropped it to clear it up, and threw it into the washing-machine, and my mum never knew that I had dropped it and cleaned it up without her even noticing. Also I had left something out of the fridge when I was trying to look for something else that had been pushed to the back, and I forgot to put back the item that I took out, and when my mum came in and found it about an hour later, she asked who left it out of the fridge and I said, ''that was not me,'' in such a convincing voice that she started yelling at my dad and my brother for leaving it out, and I got away scot-free. And this isn't the only time I have ever lied and got away with it.


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Indy
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17 Aug 2012, 1:51 pm

outofplace wrote:
Indy wrote:
outofplace wrote:
Indy wrote:
outofplace wrote:
Even going from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint you can justify it as the Bible tells you not to bear false witness against your neighbor, not to never lie at all (unless I am wrong on this point and please correct me if I am.)


Romans 1 lists lying as a sign of a 'depraved mind', along with gossiping, being arrogant, being boastful... But then it says in Romans 2 that that is why people shouldn't judge one another, because we're all sinners. I'm not a Christian but my understanding is that Christians vary in how much authority they give the Bible and even in whether they believe in sin. So, I have heard some Christians say "you should never lie, it's a sin" and others say "it depends on the circumstances". I'm trying to avoid starting a debate on the ethics of lying, I just want to share that part of the Bible with you.


I went through Romans 1 (starting at verse 28, where your quote came from) and I didn't see anything about lying, at least not in the general sense. Maybe it's not listed in the NAS translation though. However, the point I see is that of trustworthiness. You can tell a few white lies and still be trustworthy. By white lies I mean things like not giving a fully honest answer about your opinion on someone's hair style, etc., not something intended to defraud someone. Plus, I doubt scripture would hold anything against you if you had to lie to protect the life of an innocent third party. I guess that the principle I take from it is not to lie in order to be self-serving.

Here would be an example: If you knew someone intended to kill another person and they asked you where they were and you knew, yet you did not tell them the truth, would that make your actions evil? Of course not. However, if you lied to someone and told them you were dying in order to get them to have sex with you than yes, that would make your actions evil. One action is looking out for the well-being of another person and the other is self-serving.

It's important to note that Christian Scriptural interpretation is done by trying to find the overriding principle rather than taking it in a 100% literal sense all of the times. This is different from, say Islam where the Qur'an is only to be read as 100% literal with no wiggle room for interpretation by the individual. (or at least that is my understanding of how it is dealt with in Islam. If I am incorrect than I apologize. I mean no offense.)

Romans 1:29 lists "deceit" as something that is worthy of death. Lying is saying something untrue with the aim of deceiving. I don't think Paul meant this as an overriding principal. I think he meant it 100% literally. He says that disobeying your parents or gossiping means you deserve to be killed. Those are not the words of someone who believes that the little things don't really count.

If this is important to you then I would point out that it's up to you whether you agree with Paul or not. Most Christians disagree with him on at least something, even those Christians that believe that the Bible should be interpreted 100% literally. For example, I've yet to meet a Christian who accepts Paul's rule that women should keep silent in church (1 Corinthians).

I don't agree with your example. It's too extreme to derive a general principle from it. Even if lying under those circumstances was okay it wouldn't mean that lying under normal everyday circumstances is okay. I think that there are always alternatives to lying. I can refuse to answer or get involved. I can try to calm the person down. Or, I would do the most probable thing: wet myself and become unable to speak (has happened before - becoming mute, not the wetting myself bit).

I agree that lying varies a lot in how bad it is, and that occasionally lying doesn't mean that you are untrustworthy. I think that the ethics of lying are very complicated and that everyone has to work out for themselves what they think is okay. But, I believe that there are always alternatives to lying (even if it involves wetting myself).


Yes, but ALL sin is worthy of death. The main point of Romans chapter one is to point out the utter depravity of man and his inability to redeem himself, not to state that all sinners of this sort need to be put to death. Remember that to Christians there are two kinds of death: death of the physical body and spiritual death. The body is corrupt by it's very nature (original sin) but the soul can be redeemed and saved from spiritual death (death without knowing Christ which then leads to judgement for the sins you committed in this life and separation from God in eternity). The whole point of Christ's death on the cross was a substitutionary sacrifice to give man an escape from his sins that he could never do for himself. Thus, salvation is an escape from (spiritual) death.

I agree with you that Paul is not arguing that people who commit these sins should be killed. I was only suggesting that Paul does not leave any doubt about how bad he thinks lying is. To him it is a sign of a depraved mind.

I don't agree that the main point of these passages in Romans 1 is point out the utter depravity of man or his inability to be redeemed. The word "Therefore" at the beginning of Romans 2 shows that you have to read the end of Romans 1 with the beginning of Romans 2 to get the main point. These verses are a list of sins. They are immediately followed by Romans 2 which begins "Therefore you have no excuse..." (NAS translation). Paul goes on to condemn the hypocrisy of those that judge others, "for you who judge practice the same things". He is using the verses at the end of Romans 1 to list sins that everyone commits, so that he can establish the argument that everyone practices the same sins, and therefore nobody has any excuse to judge anyone else.



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17 Aug 2012, 3:43 pm

It is just a words.. It is hard to come up with sudden lies, almost impossible to me, but if I had time to think - it's very easy.



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17 Aug 2012, 4:29 pm

I don't know anyone who hasn't lied.


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