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Jasmine90
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17 Aug 2012, 11:43 pm

Nonperson wrote:
Also: I'm not going to say much about this because it's upsetting me too much, but those of you who are saying "people who say they don't lie, are lying" need to stop. That conventional wisdom bullshit is not true, no matter how much you might like it to be, and it's very hurtful. As for social repercussions, you're on a board for people with AS, how many here do you think can get through social interactions smoothly? Not everyone is like you, and assuming that is downright toxic.


Why stop? EVERYONE lies, you've admitted that you yourself have lied, even if you haven't lied recently, you've still done it, and I would find it very difficult to believe if someone told me they don't lie, or have never lied.
For one, it's easy to make a statement such as that, but it's impossible to prove.
I don't see why it is hurtful, lying is another thing that separates us from most species, therefore it is a part of what makes us unique.

I'm sure there have even been instances where lying has saved someone's life, it's a part of us, I see nothing wrong with a little white lie, it's not hurting anyone.
I lie sometimes, to protect myself from horrible situations, or situations where I might not function well. I say "I don't feel well" to get out of going somewhere that might bring on a meltdown.

I can accept that some people can't lie, my Mum is one of those people, it's easy to distinguish when she is lying, mainly because I am familiar with her facial expressions and tone of voice.

I personally think it is a silly reason to get upset about, but that is just me being honest.
Everyone.Lies.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:00 am

invisiblesilent wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
invisiblesilent wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
OP, why do you call yourself an Aspie if you weren't diagnosed? That's like saying that there's a cat under my bed without checking whether there's one or not.


If you can hear a cat meowing and purring under your bed and you can see a shadow of a cat then you can be pretty certain there is a cat under the bed ;)

In another way: Some people might not have access to somebody who is able to diagnose them. If the person clearly displays most or all of the symptoms/traits/criteria of AS and has discovered that the coping mechanisms which work for aspies work for them then why shouldn't they describe themself as aspie? I was happy to use that term about myself nearly the moment I learned about AS. My auntie who spent a lifetime working with autistic people agrees as do the rest of my family. I haven't been diagnosed (yet) but have been referred and I am on the road to getting a diagnosis starting nearly exactly a month from now. If this option isn't available to somebody else don't you think they should be allowed to draw their own conclusion and act appropriately? Imagine how it feels to live a lifetime feeling like an alien from another world and having no support, no explanation.

Even if someone displays those traits and wouldn't get a diagnosis then this is still the place for them. As the Bipolar, Tourettes and other conditions forum description says: "We welcome all neurodiverse individuals, with or without Autism!". So personally I don't think it's nice to call people out on this stuff. In the end what difference does it make to you?


No, it's like a blind, deaf, highly tactile insensitive and rather olfactory insensitive person trying to determine whether there's a cat under his bed or not without any assistance.

Not only does one have to have proper education in the required area in order to make a diagnosis, but one also has to be observed, and not only observe oneself. People tend to underestimate and overestimate many of their symptoms. Self-observation tends to lead to a very low degree of certainty.


You didn't answer the other questions. I agree with you that self diagnosis isn't very reliable which is why I am pursuing a diagnosis. There are people for whom that is not an option. Perhaps they don't have the money to pay, their insurance doesn't cover it or their local health authority will not offer them an assessment. Do you think those people should not be allowed to seek the peace of mind and understanding that a self diagnosis brings them? Do you think that the people who have done that deserve to have it called out? People who have perhaps been marginalised their whole life because of their difficulties and have finally found a place where they feel welcome and accepted. You might not agree with people who have self diagnosed and I agree that perhaps they cannot be 100% certain. But if they have no alternative then calling them out because they have self diagnosed is really shitty tbh.


Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:06 am

TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


Diagnosis doesn't somehow make you autistic, and it seems like most self-diagnosed autistic people who go looking for professional diagnosis, get that diagnosis. There are quite a few on this forum who self-diagnosed prior to getting a professional diagnosis (I'm one).

Anyway, at least one professional (Tony Attwood, I believe) states that if you think you're autistic, you probably are. Given his experience I'm willing to take his word on that.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:07 am

Jasmine90 wrote:
I personally think it is a silly reason to get upset about, but that is just me being honest.
Everyone.Lies.


The problem is that you're not being honest. You're assuming that everyone does a particular thing that everyone does not do. It's not even a question of morality, but of capability.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:16 am

Verdandi wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


Diagnosis doesn't somehow make you autistic, and it seems like most self-diagnosed autistic people who go looking for professional diagnosis, get that diagnosis. There are quite a few on this forum who self-diagnosed prior to getting a professional diagnosis (I'm one).

Anyway, at least one professional (Tony Attwood, I believe) states that if you think you're autistic, you probably are. Given his experience I'm willing to take his word on that.


Diagnosis doesn't make you autistic, but it detects whether you have it or not. Of course there are some cases where the self-diagnosis ends up being true, but such cases are far from universal. I'm yet to see any credible statistics on the percentage of the self-diagnosed people who received the autism diagnosis. I would assume that it would be around 20 to 30% - but that's just an assumption.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:29 am

TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


No that was not the logical fallacy known as appeal to emotion. For that to be the case I would have had to have been using that statement to attempt to support an argument which I was making or to change your opinion in some way. I was not doing this, I even specifically stated to you that I agreed that self diagnosis was not reliable. An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument. So, no appeal to emotion was made. The statement stands alone and is not being used to support any argument: there are people for whom self-diagnosis is the only option. I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question. Ever consider a career in politics?. You did not answer that question and instead proceeded with your petty little game of "being right on the internet" (I know all about it because I like to play it too ;)). Well, I'm afraid on this occasion you've simply made yourself look ridiculous by claiming I employed a logical fallacy which I did not employ and which you have demonstrated you do not understand AND by continuing with your pompous assumption that you have any right to tell people how they can and cannot describe themselves. If you don't agree with people then fine but keep it to yourself because you are dealing with vulnerable people who do NOT need you questioning them. You are not the forum police. That was my point. Understand that? Now stop it.

Edit: Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution? That you are the only one who can use google and a browser? Your arrogance really is staggering.
invisiblesilent wrote:
You didn't answer the other questions. I agree with you that self diagnosis isn't very reliable which is why I am pursuing a diagnosis. There are people for whom that is not an option. Perhaps they don't have the money to pay, their insurance doesn't cover it or their local health authority will not offer them an assessment. Do you think those people should not be allowed to seek the peace of mind and understanding that a self diagnosis brings them? Do you think that the people who have done that deserve to have it called out? People who have perhaps been marginalised their whole life because of their difficulties and have finally found a place where they feel welcome and accepted. You might not agree with people who have self diagnosed and I agree that perhaps they cannot be 100% certain. But if they have no alternative then calling them out because they have self diagnosed is really shitty tbh.



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18 Aug 2012, 1:46 am

invisiblesilent wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


No that was not the logical fallacy known as appeal to emotion. For that to be the case I would have had to have been using that statement to attempt to support an argument which I was making or to change your opinion in some way. I was not doing this, I even specifically stated to you that I agreed that self diagnosis was not reliable. An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument. So, no appeal to emotion was made. The statement stands alone and is not being used to support any argument: there are people for whom self-diagnosis is the only option. I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question. Ever consider a career in politics?. You did not answer that question and instead proceeded with your petty little game of "being right on the internet" (I know all about it because I like to play it too ;)). Well, I'm afraid on this occasion you've simply made yourself look ridiculous by claiming I employed a logical fallacy which I did not employ and which you have demonstrated you do not understand AND by continuing with your pompous assumption that you have any right to tell people how they can and cannot describe themselves. If you don't agree with people then fine but keep it to yourself because you are dealing with vulnerable people who do NOT need you questioning them. You are not the forum police. That was my point. Understand that? Now stop it.

Edit: Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution? That you are the only one who can use google and a browser? Your arrogance really is staggering.
invisiblesilent wrote:
You didn't answer the other questions. I agree with you that self diagnosis isn't very reliable which is why I am pursuing a diagnosis. There are people for whom that is not an option. Perhaps they don't have the money to pay, their insurance doesn't cover it or their local health authority will not offer them an assessment. Do you think those people should not be allowed to seek the peace of mind and understanding that a self diagnosis brings them? Do you think that the people who have done that deserve to have it called out? People who have perhaps been marginalised their whole life because of their difficulties and have finally found a place where they feel welcome and accepted. You might not agree with people who have self diagnosed and I agree that perhaps they cannot be 100% certain. But if they have no alternative then calling them out because they have self diagnosed is really shitty tbh.


"An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument." - That's exactly what you did. You're trying to legitimize self-diagnosis as a diagnostic method for those who don't have the resources for a proper diagnosis, mostly due to a backward economic system called "minimal state intervention free enterprise capitalism".

" I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question." - Yes, it is. It's reasonable to point them out that self-diagnosis is very unreliable. Many of the symptoms of Asperger's can be caused by conditions such as psychosis, social anxiety disorder, schizoid personality disorder, etc.

"Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution?" - Self-diagnosis is never an ideal solution. And besides, I have no reason to believe that a great number of people can't be wrong. After all, ~25% of the population believes that astrology is basically true. The vast majority also believes in a supernatural God, which is about as ridiculous.



Kindertotenlieder79
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18 Aug 2012, 2:03 am

What have you been diagnosed with Towercrane?



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18 Aug 2012, 2:05 am

Kindertotenlieder79 wrote:
What have you been diagnosed with Towercrane?


PDD-NOS. I was firstly diagnosed with a "developmental disorder", after which I called my psychiatrist and asked which precise one was it, and he justified my assumption on his diagnosis.



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18 Aug 2012, 3:26 am

TowerCrane wrote:
invisiblesilent wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


No that was not the logical fallacy known as appeal to emotion. For that to be the case I would have had to have been using that statement to attempt to support an argument which I was making or to change your opinion in some way. I was not doing this, I even specifically stated to you that I agreed that self diagnosis was not reliable. An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument. So, no appeal to emotion was made. The statement stands alone and is not being used to support any argument: there are people for whom self-diagnosis is the only option. I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question. Ever consider a career in politics?. You did not answer that question and instead proceeded with your petty little game of "being right on the internet" (I know all about it because I like to play it too ;)). Well, I'm afraid on this occasion you've simply made yourself look ridiculous by claiming I employed a logical fallacy which I did not employ and which you have demonstrated you do not understand AND by continuing with your pompous assumption that you have any right to tell people how they can and cannot describe themselves. If you don't agree with people then fine but keep it to yourself because you are dealing with vulnerable people who do NOT need you questioning them. You are not the forum police. That was my point. Understand that? Now stop it.

Edit: Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution? That you are the only one who can use google and a browser? Your arrogance really is staggering.
invisiblesilent wrote:
You didn't answer the other questions. I agree with you that self diagnosis isn't very reliable which is why I am pursuing a diagnosis. There are people for whom that is not an option. Perhaps they don't have the money to pay, their insurance doesn't cover it or their local health authority will not offer them an assessment. Do you think those people should not be allowed to seek the peace of mind and understanding that a self diagnosis brings them? Do you think that the people who have done that deserve to have it called out? People who have perhaps been marginalised their whole life because of their difficulties and have finally found a place where they feel welcome and accepted. You might not agree with people who have self diagnosed and I agree that perhaps they cannot be 100% certain. But if they have no alternative then calling them out because they have self diagnosed is really shitty tbh.


"An appeal to emotion specifically entails an attempt to use emotion to obscure or support an otherwise fallacious argument." - That's exactly what you did. You're trying to legitimize self-diagnosis as a diagnostic method for those who don't have the resources for a proper diagnosis, mostly due to a backward economic system called "minimal state intervention free enterprise capitalism".

" I asked you whether you think it is reasonable to call vulnerable people out on something when they are potentially at a difficult juncture - and you still did not answer that question." - Yes, it is. It's reasonable to point them out that self-diagnosis is very unreliable. Many of the symptoms of Asperger's can be caused by conditions such as psychosis, social anxiety disorder, schizoid personality disorder, etc.

"Are you also so arrogant to think that people didn't already find out themselves that self-diagnosis is not an ideal solution?" - Self-diagnosis is never an ideal solution. And besides, I have no reason to believe that a great number of people can't be wrong. After all, ~25% of the population believes that astrology is basically true. The vast majority also believes in a supernatural God, which is about as ridiculous.


Quote:
That's exactly what you did. You're trying to legitimize self-diagnosis as a diagnostic method for those who don't have the resources for a proper diagnosis, mostly due to a backward economic system called "minimal state intervention free enterprise capitalism".

You are incredibly pompous aren't you? The mention of economic systems was irrelevant to the conversation. Now you are word dropping to attempt to make yourself appear more intelligent. It's really quite transparent and really quite silly and it really doesn't work. I did not "attempt to legitimize" anything. I have agreed that self diagnosis is not reliable but you are stepping around that fact - for what reason I have no idea. The fact that it is not reliable and even, if you wish to phrase it that way, "not legitimate" does not mean it is not useful for some people. There are people who have manifestly benefited from their self diagnosis.

Quote:
Yes, it is. It's reasonable to point them out that self-diagnosis is very unreliable. Many of the symptoms of Asperger's can be caused by conditions such as psychosis, social anxiety disorder, schizoid personality disorder, etc.

Again with the incredible arrogance. If people have arrived at the point where they feel confident to self diagnose then they have almost certainly read about other conditions which may be causing their difficulties and will have ruled out some. Psychosis and schizoid personality disorder both have very specific symptoms which make them very easy for even an educated layman to rule out. I suppose one out of three isn't too bad. If people have asked you for your opinion on their views of their own life then feel free to give them. Until such a time as that happens then I think you'll find you'll just piss people off if you carry on doing it.

Quote:
Self-diagnosis is never an ideal solution. And besides, I have no reason to believe that a great number of people can't be wrong. After all, ~25% of the population believes that astrology is basically true. The vast majority also believes in a supernatural God, which is about as ridiculous.

Now who is employing logical fallacies? I didn't say it *was* an ideal solution, anywhere. I didn't say that people can't be wrong, anywhere. Astrology and the number of people who believe in it is irrelevant as are the number of people who believe in god. Those are articles of faith and are in no way similar to people arriving at a conclusion, however potentially faulty, based on extensive research, self observation and discussion.

I'm done with this conversation. Like I pointed out earlier, you're playing a very poor game of "try to be right on the internet" and I'm bored of it now. Grow up to be honest.



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18 Aug 2012, 8:26 am

Tuttle wrote:


In my case, if I attempt to verbally it feels like my throat is closing up and my vocal cords won't move. Its a type of feeling nonverbal that is being unable to force any words out of my mouth at all, not just the lie. It's that extreme of a response.


Isn't this really the same as being a very bad liar? I mean, if you've tried to lie and the result was your throat closing over the lie, isn't that the same a stating the lie with a look on your face that clearly says your lying? The impulse to lie is there, but the execution falls flat.

And to speak in order to mislead is known as prevaricating......



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18 Aug 2012, 9:16 am

singularity wrote:
Tuttle wrote:


In my case, if I attempt to verbally it feels like my throat is closing up and my vocal cords won't move. Its a type of feeling nonverbal that is being unable to force any words out of my mouth at all, not just the lie. It's that extreme of a response.


Isn't this really the same as being a very bad liar? I mean, if you've tried to lie and the result was your throat closing over the lie, isn't that the same a stating the lie with a look on your face that clearly says your lying? The impulse to lie is there, but the execution falls flat.

And to speak in order to mislead is known as prevaricating......


If you consider the impulse to lie being people actively wanting to test what would happen if I were to try and me testing it with them then I'd agree the impulse is there.

I actually also have no interest in it in any real life situation. Much of this testing was done after realizing that I can't lie in character either.

But I don't know if I'd consider it the same as just being a really bad liar?The point is being unable to, not being not wanting to in this discussion...

I won't say I've never lied in my life. I lied when I was 7, about whether I liked a particular type of candy. I still feel traumatized in some ways about it. I am almost certain I've never lied since then.

I will mention in these discussions that I can mislead, because I want to give all the information. I can in fact mislead. I'm good at it. I don't like doing it. It's not a common thing for me to do. It takes a large thing for me to do - not little white lies. The last time I can think of doing so is in 2007.



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18 Aug 2012, 9:41 am

Verdandi wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


Diagnosis doesn't somehow make you autistic, and it seems like most self-diagnosed autistic people who go looking for professional diagnosis, get that diagnosis. There are quite a few on this forum who self-diagnosed prior to getting a professional diagnosis (I'm one).

Anyway, at least one professional (Tony Attwood, I believe) states that if you think you're autistic, you probably are. Given his experience I'm willing to take his word on that.


In an excellent book I've just read - Asperger Syndrome in Adulthood: A Comprehensive Guide for Clinicians (Kevin Stoddart, Lillian Burke, Robert King) - the authors say pretty much the same thing. That those that self-diagnose and then present themselves for diagnosis are usually correct.

The only caution around there and Attwood's statement, is that these people do go on to obtain a diagnosis. Among those who do not take this step, the likelihood of a correct self-diagnosis could be much lower. In the UK at least you must make it past your GP, who whatever there ability and knowledge of AS will perform some minimal screening.

Talking of Attwood, this whole thread has perhaps come about from the view that Aspies rarely lie. It's perhaps more correct to say that aspies tend to follow rules.

I can lie very convincingly, I'm pretty good at poker. I'm actually worse at telling the truth. If I'm accused of anything which I haven't done, I'll smile or blush or some other odd behaviour that makes it seem as though I'm lying. When I was much younger I had a third reaction, which was to be unsure whether I had done something or not. I don't think I had, but at the time it seemed as though it could have bene something I'd done, so I found it really hard to answer.

Jason.



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18 Aug 2012, 9:50 am

Jtuk wrote:
It's perhaps more correct to say that aspies tend to follow rules.

The problem is - aspies often don't know well enough what the rules are in any given situation. Aspies follow the rules, but this rules is often very different from other people's rules.
In the result aspies often lie, when there is no point in lying and dont tell lies when social standards expect them to.

Jtuk wrote:
Among those who do not take this step, the likelihood of a correct self-diagnosis could be much lower.


We dont have many ASD specialists in my city and no one at all who specialize in adult ASD. And I highly doubt that there is such specialist in my country at all.



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18 Aug 2012, 12:05 pm

Jtuk wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
TowerCrane wrote:
Even if you have no alternative, it doesn't make self-diagnosis any more credible. That's a logical fallacy called appeal to emotion. One can't say that they have Asperger's based on a self-diagnosis. They can say that they might have Asperger's, but not that they have it, unless it was properly diagnosed. For example, one can't say "I'm an Aspie that lies" despite never receiving an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis.


Diagnosis doesn't somehow make you autistic, and it seems like most self-diagnosed autistic people who go looking for professional diagnosis, get that diagnosis. There are quite a few on this forum who self-diagnosed prior to getting a professional diagnosis (I'm one).

Anyway, at least one professional (Tony Attwood, I believe) states that if you think you're autistic, you probably are. Given his experience I'm willing to take his word on that.


In an excellent book I've just read - Asperger Syndrome in Adulthood: A Comprehensive Guide for Clinicians (Kevin Stoddart, Lillian Burke, Robert King) - the authors say pretty much the same thing. That those that self-diagnose and then present themselves for diagnosis are usually correct.

The only caution around there and Attwood's statement, is that these people do go on to obtain a diagnosis. Among those who do not take this step, the likelihood of a correct self-diagnosis could be much lower. In the UK at least you must make it past your GP, who whatever there ability and knowledge of AS will perform some minimal screening.

Talking of Attwood, this whole thread has perhaps come about from the view that Aspies rarely lie. It's perhaps more correct to say that aspies tend to follow rules.

I can lie very convincingly, I'm pretty good at poker. I'm actually worse at telling the truth. If I'm accused of anything which I haven't done, I'll smile or blush or some other odd behaviour that makes it seem as though I'm lying. When I was much younger I had a third reaction, which was to be unsure whether I had done something or not. I don't think I had, but at the time it seemed as though it could have bene something I'd done, so I found it really hard to answer.

Jason.


It doesn't matter what some authors say - an observational study is needed. There are many authors who say that the universe was designed by God. If someone simply expresses their opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.



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18 Aug 2012, 12:09 pm

TowerCrane wrote:
It doesn't matter what some authors say - an observational study is needed. There are many authors who say that the universe was designed by God. If someone simply expresses their opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.


They have observed that the majority of self-referring clients are correct. I'll take their word on it.

Jason.