Executive dysfunction vs. laziness/not caring?

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Cassia
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26 Oct 2010, 4:59 pm

I've been reading Callista's blog, and some of her posts on executive dysfunction made me think "that sounds like me". For example, in this post she gives the following examples of results of executive dysfunction, some of which are very familiar:

"I can't figure out how to start this project." (Maybe... not sure)
"My house is a mess!" (Yup!)
"Cleaning the house was fine, but then I couldn't stop until I finished--at 5 a.m.!" (Not so much)
"I'm a procrastinator. Nothing gets done until the last minute." (Yup.)
"I meant to get something done today, but I couldn't stop checking my e-mail." (Yup. Or more likely, browsing the internet.)
"It takes me forever to get ready in the morning!" (Usually.)
"I put off my homework until 2 a.m." (Sometimes.)
"I knew I should stop, but I found myself playing my three hundredth game of Solitaire anyway!" (Well, not with Solitaire, but with other things.)

This is also familiar, except I don't yet have a system of organization going.

I've tended to attribute most of these things to laziness or not caring (e.g., not cleaning my room because I don't really care if it's messy). But now I'm wondering if they might be actually due to executive dysfunction. I know that people who have executive dysfunction are often falsely accused of being lazy. So now I'm wondering how I'd know which is the cause of my disorganization - laziness, or executive dysfunction, or possibly some combination.

And then, to the extent that it is executive dysfunction, I'm interested in discovering methods to make things work that aren't just "stop being lazy and try harder".


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26 Oct 2010, 5:11 pm

Cassia wrote:
I've been reading Callista's blog, and some of her posts on executive dysfunction made me think "that sounds like me". For example, in this post she gives the following examples of results of executive dysfunction, some of which are very familiar:

"I can't figure out how to start this project." (Maybe... not sure)
"My house is a mess!" (Yup!)
"Cleaning the house was fine, but then I couldn't stop until I finished--at 5 a.m.!" (Not so much)
"I'm a procrastinator. Nothing gets done until the last minute." (Yup.)
"I meant to get something done today, but I couldn't stop checking my e-mail." (Yup. Or more likely, browsing the internet.)
"It takes me forever to get ready in the morning!" (Usually.)
"I put off my homework until 2 a.m." (Sometimes.)
"I knew I should stop, but I found myself playing my three hundredth game of Solitaire anyway!" (Well, not with Solitaire, but with other things.)

This is also familiar, except I don't yet have a system of organization going.

I've tended to attribute most of these things to laziness or not caring (e.g., not cleaning my room because I don't really care if it's messy). But now I'm wondering if they might be actually due to executive dysfunction. I know that people who have executive dysfunction are often falsely accused of being lazy. So now I'm wondering how I'd know which is the cause of my disorganization - laziness, or executive dysfunction, or possibly some combination.

And then, to the extent that it is executive dysfunction, I'm interested in discovering methods to make things work that aren't just "stop being lazy and try harder".


Most of the above fit but I call myself lazy anyway. I am afraid if I start calling it something else, I am being one of those people who is too proud to admit it and must call it something else. Maybe it has to do with how I was raised, I don't know. It takes me forever to finally clean the bathroom or something in the kitchen and I always keep putting it off for weeks or months before doing it. Only thing that motivates me is when someone is coming over and I think it's rude to not clean up when you are expecting someone so I do it. Then I can't stop until it's finished. I often force myself to do things.

But it seems like everyone has it anyway. That's why I don't claim to have it. I just say I'm lazy. I even say my anxiety makes me lazy too.

I have something I gotta do now but I keep putting it off because I hate making phone calls and dealing with things that will take away my free time.



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26 Oct 2010, 5:13 pm

Interesting read. I do many of the same things...

I don't want to feel like a cop-out and say that it is the cause of some new dysfunction I've probably got or anything, but I'll be looking further into this one on my own.



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26 Oct 2010, 5:54 pm

If it's just laziness, then you know it. It is a matter of just not caring, and if not, that's fine. However, if we are feeling lazy, the realilzation that we do need to get things does eventually gets us moving... or if not someone else will pressure us. Poor executive functioning, however, does not suddenly go away because we come to a realization or because someone else kicks us in the butt. Those with poor EF may have temporary spurts of hyerpactivity or mental clarity, but it never lasts long enough to get things in order and the inablility to to so is to some degree disturbing to ourselves and others.


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26 Oct 2010, 6:02 pm

Cassia wrote:
I've been reading Callista's blog, and some of her posts on executive dysfunction made me think "that sounds like me". For example, in this post she gives the following examples of results of executive dysfunction, some of which are very familiar:

"I can't figure out how to start this project." (Maybe... not sure)
"My house is a mess!" (Yup!)
"Cleaning the house was fine, but then I couldn't stop until I finished--at 5 a.m.!" (Not so much)
"I'm a procrastinator. Nothing gets done until the last minute." (Yup.)
"I meant to get something done today, but I couldn't stop checking my e-mail." (Yup. Or more likely, browsing the internet.)
"It takes me forever to get ready in the morning!" (Usually.)
"I put off my homework until 2 a.m." (Sometimes.)
"I knew I should stop, but I found myself playing my three hundredth game of Solitaire anyway!" (Well, not with Solitaire, but with other things.)

This is also familiar, except I don't yet have a system of organization going.

I've tended to attribute most of these things to laziness or not caring (e.g., not cleaning my room because I don't really care if it's messy). But now I'm wondering if they might be actually due to executive dysfunction. I know that people who have executive dysfunction are often falsely accused of being lazy. So now I'm wondering how I'd know which is the cause of my disorganization - laziness, or executive dysfunction, or possibly some combination.

And then, to the extent that it is executive dysfunction, I'm interested in discovering methods to make things work that aren't just "stop being lazy and try harder".



sounds like a mix of 'attention deficit' and 'hyper focus' possibly 'hyperactivity] AKA ADD/ADHD.

Executive function is to do with reasoning and higher order logic.
e.g. All of a sudden I couldn't add up 1 and 1 any-more, nor my shopping list.



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26 Oct 2010, 7:06 pm

Cassia wrote:
"Cleaning the house was fine, but then I couldn't stop until I finished--at 5 a.m.!" (Not so much)
.


This one jumped out at me because it might help to make the distinction. If you don't have trouble stopping cleaning once you start, then that could be a sign that you really just don't like cleaning or don't care. I'm not saying it definitely is though.

Executive dysfunction, as I understand it, involves (among other things) difficulty starting and stopping activities and switching from one activity to another. I have never been up till 5 a.m. cleaning because if I don't follow a stable sleep pattern I turn into a raving lunatic, but I have definitely spent the whole day cleaning when I had other more important things to do, and been unable to stop myself. And it's not because I love cleaning or I was enjoying it - I just really didn't know how to stop.



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26 Oct 2010, 7:10 pm

oliverthered wrote:
Executive function is to do with reasoning and higher order logic.
e.g. All of a sudden I couldn't add up 1 and 1 any-more, nor my shopping list.


Executive function is much broader than that. This is an excerpt from an abstract for a medical paper:

Quote:
"Executive function" is an umbrella term for functions such as planning, working memory, impulse control, inhibition and mental flexibility, as well as for the initiation and monitoring of action.



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26 Oct 2010, 7:46 pm

so if i had every good intention of doing it, and just forgot or had something else to do and didn't deliberately put it off, its not lazyness?

EDIT: i often forget to do stuff, or just completely lose track of time


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26 Oct 2010, 7:51 pm

If it matters, I do have an ADHD-I/autism combination, so I can't tell whether my executive dysfunction comes from autism or ADHD, or whether they are both located on some continuum and my traits simply happen to encompass both. And yes, I have been up until 5 a.m. because I couldn't stop cleaning, though pleasant tasks are generally harder to break out of. I think a good word for it is "inertia"--I have problems stopping, starting, or changing direction.


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26 Oct 2010, 8:27 pm

PangeLingua wrote:
oliverthered wrote:
Executive function is to do with reasoning and higher order logic.
e.g. All of a sudden I couldn't add up 1 and 1 any-more, nor my shopping list.


Executive function is much broader than that. This is an excerpt from an abstract for a medical paper:

Quote:
"Executive function" is an umbrella term for functions such as planning, working memory, impulse control, inhibition and mental flexibility, as well as for the initiation and monitoring of action.


my e.g. fits,
Planning,
working memory,
mental flxeibility

ADHD/ADD may come under the executive function unbrella, it's certainly fixable in some cases by stimulation of brain activity.

Thought personally and in others it appears to be a 'lack' of personal self. If I 'self indulge' (so take a walk round a park, or go on a bike ride) then it helps me out a lot. Generally I do things for other people and not for myself, so I have a general lack of self indulgence.
If there's something I'm into (based on doing things for others), then I can hyper-focus, and I'm not too bad. A lack of self indulgence does cause a decreased experience of pleasure and make it harder to concentrate on things with no clear, pleasing, outcome. When my 'self' or 'executive function' dwindles due to 'lack of pleasure'/reward or 'boredom', then my outer conscious keeps pushing things down for it to do.

But when I have loss of executive function it's more of a 'where am I, what was I talking about' with general grogginess, motor control problems etc.. brought on by anxiety , than a 'Now why did I come into the kitchen again'

My house is a mess if I start one thing, then move onto the next without finishing the first off. [in attention], or when I no longer get much reward then my executive brain stops working on that thing so much, and other things that may be more rewarding get pushed into my executive brain, and in exception of that reward my attention switches.

I think executive function is is kind of like executive as in executive in a business.



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26 Oct 2010, 8:45 pm

This may be a better explanation. [ simplified but should be enough]

If you think of my consciousness as three concentric circles.

Now the outer layer is 'the environment', so others emotions, my bodily function, talking, feeling etc...
The middle layer I shall call my 'executive layer', that's the one I'm generally aware of.
The inner layer is where my executive layer sends things off it can't be bothered to work through or can't remember.

So to talk, the executive layer, pushes a message through the outer layer.
If I've forgotten the name of someone, the executive layer pushes it down to the inner layer. The inner layer then thinks about it (maybe for a few months or so) but then sends the answer back to the middle layer.

My ADD/ADHD is like the executive layer getting a bit board and uninterested on what it's working on, so things from the outer layer get pushed into it.
Anxiety is like the outer layer being overfull, sometimes this makes the executive layer kind of shrink up and get smaller, so the ability of my executive function diminishes, like it's somewhat blind.
Sometimes the anxiety just makes it really really hard for the executive layer to push things out, and sometimes it makes the outer layer send more stuff down to the executive layer than it wants (like a distress signal).

NT people don't seem to identify with the outer and executive layer bit, but do the 'inner layer' sending things off and getting the answers back later.

(I've simplified things quite a bit here just to explain the difference in how I'm affected and perceive my consciousness, using terms that others have been able to self identify with)
I'd identify different types of 'anxiety' for instance, and that the outer layer does some thinking of it's own [just not so complete as the executive or inner layers], so there's probably another level of indirection between it and the more environmental things.



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26 Oct 2010, 9:31 pm

They are the same thing. One is just a fancy name for the other.

The "cure" for both is exactly the same.



Cassia
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26 Oct 2010, 10:07 pm

Invader wrote:
They are the same thing. One is just a fancy name for the other.


On what grounds do you say this? I don't think it makes sense. In particular, Callista's example of getting stuck cleaning her room until 5 a.m. because she couldn't stop simply makes no sense as an example of laziness.


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26 Oct 2010, 10:18 pm

Invader wrote:
They are the same thing. One is just a fancy name for the other.

The "cure" for both is exactly the same.


If you're putting in enough effort to exhaust yourself and you still can't manage to figure out where to start, what order to do things in, how to change when what you're doing isn't working, and other similar things, then there's more than laziness going on.
Laziness is when you CAN do something without having to hurt yourself with the effort, but you can't be bothered.
Executive dysfunction is when your brain doesn't work properly no matter how much effort you put in.


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26 Oct 2010, 10:23 pm

Cassia wrote:
Invader wrote:
They are the same thing. One is just a fancy name for the other.


On what grounds do you say this? I don't think it makes sense. In particular, Callista's example of getting stuck cleaning her room until 5 a.m. because she couldn't stop simply makes no sense as an example of laziness.


That's why I mentioned ADD/ADHD and how they seemed similar. (people with ADHD/ADD are often called 'lazy').

I would say that sometimes I would get 'stuck' doing something repetitive, because I couldn't 'find my way' out of it. Sometimes 'stuck' in a chair because I can't manage to get up, sometimes 'stuck' on the computer because I can't manage to go to bed.

I get that when I've got a hell of a lot of anxiety.

It's a lot different to the more ADD/ADHD stuff, but often the outcomes are very similar.

My mum couldn't do anything unless she has a routine, and had difficulty doing other things if she had a routine set.

Again that could be seen by some as being 'lazy'.

People on anti-psychotics [chemically induced lack of thought], just get really really lazy.

I know people who can't do things for themselves, but aren't lazy. just not selfish.

etc....

The only truly lazy people I've known, sit in offices or on golf courses and get other people to do things.



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26 Oct 2010, 10:27 pm

The only truly lazy people I've known, sit in offices or on golf courses and get other people to do things.

I suppose it may hurt their ego to do things.